ladyforsaken said:
Despicable Me, I do agree with some of the things you say, because they make sense. However I think your approach is a little insulting. Different people at different ages see similar issues in life differently and we can only try to empathise and give advice based on our experiences and what we know is best, but we don't have to put them down (or along these lines before you tell me I'm twisting your words, Despicable Me) for feeling the way they do, even at that young age.
I wasn't putting anyone down or insulting them. I thought I made that clear already.
ladyforsaken said:
Maybe this 21 year old dude doesn't know what he's talking about, or maybe he does because he feels exactly as he described. And us older people know a little better sometimes, but that doesn't mean we disregard their feelings by not taking them seriously. You think he was joking around with his feelings? If you were in his shoes and wanted people to just hear you out but they won't take you seriously just because you're young, how would you feel?
I'd feel embarassed for saying something so stupid, knowing that the other person was right and that I shouldn't look at it that way. That's how I'd feel. And that's the sort of response that I'd want to get.
And if they get defensive like Rainbows did? And most of all, twisting other people's words rather than reading what is really there. That's something I personally think they need to work out, too. Being unable to take criticism properly is something that effects a lot of people. It seems, from my experience, that it is particularly true here on this forum. And it's an issue that needs to be worked out and is a different issue altogether.
Am I supposed to tip-toe around every single person's feelings here just because it's a loneliness forum? That's not me. That's not going to happen.
Maybe I suck at social interactions, but if so that's probably just because I have lived the vast majority of my life in solitude.
And no, I never stated nor implied I couldn't take them seriously because they were young. That is, directly, twisting of my words again.
I couldn't take that comment seriously because there was literally no logical consistency to it. It was an irrational feeling developed out of fear. And I feel the way I approached it is a proper response to eliminate irrational feelings like that.
Maybe it's not the way you'd go about it, but why do I need to be like you?
The topic itself is about feeling like the one who doesn't belong, right? Expecting others to be like you is exactly the reason why someone might feel like they don't belong. So I would not expect anyone to be doing this here.
ladyforsaken said:
Let me just touch on some of the things I don't quite think is the best way to put it in order to help someone on this forum.
No. You don't sit there and tell someone, no matter of what age, that it is distasteful and disrespectful of them to express their feelings. As long as they do not insult anyone in particular, I think it is perfectly fine to share and vent. This dude is merely talking and sharing about his own life and hopelessness.
Again, as I already told Rainbows, do you know who those things are most disrespectful to?
If you'd read my post to Rainbows you'd know. It is the person speaking them.
By suggesting you've already wasted your life away when you 'obviously' have your entire life ahead of you it is disrespectful to yourself. It is like saying you feel like giving up, like you feel you can't do any better than giving up.
It's like saying you feel no one's life is worth anything.
As I expressed before, it's like book-burning. It's like burning a bunch of books because you're too stubborn to care about them, because you developed this irrational idea that they are bad for no reason at all.
There is no reasoning behind trying to baby or tip-toe around this.
If I saw someone book-burning, I'd yell at them, too. If I saw someone saying their life was over, while still living it, I'm going to yell at them, too. If I saw someone trying to kill themselves, you'll be damn sure I'm going to yell at them for it after I stop them.
But I'm not above learning from my own mistakes. If you think I'm a jerk, that's fine. Show me a better way to get through to these people and I won't just accept it, I will embrace it. But from my experience sometimes a little 'tough love' is what they need.
ladyforsaken said:
Oh but that's the implication that seems to be made by you from the way you sound or write your post there.
Some people read what they want to read, even if it's not really there.
I'm not an ageist or any nonsense like that. I don't care what age you are, if you tell me that your life is over before you've even tried living then I'm going to be the guy who tells you that you're wrong. I'm going to be that guy who thinks you're being ridiculous. And I'll be that guy who tries to help you realize how irrational and nonsensical you're being while simultaneously pointing you in the proper direction to see reality.
Why is it that my advice is ignored as if it I'm just here condemning someone? Come on now. I think that advice you're disregarding was actually pretty good. Look at the message as a whole and you'll see for yourself what is really there and what isn't. Don't just look at a few sentences or skim the post and make assumptions. See it for what it really is as a whole, not in tiny pieces. See the meaning behind it. See the love behind it.
Do either of you really think with the advice I was giving that I was trying to be a jerk? You should both know better than that.
Or maybe you don't. Maybe you have trouble seeing people for who they really are? If that's true then make a topic about that and I'll try to help you deal with those problems, too. Every different problem requires a different approach, and every individual is unique as well. That's why I really don't believe in this tip-toeing thing. I feel that method is only good in certain circumstances.
Inevitably, you have your ways and I have mine.
ladyforsaken said:
See that's where you're wrong. You do need to know his whole life story and be in his freaking shoes to be able to judge him and his situation to say that it's disrespectful. Otherwise, your judgement is baseless and is just insulting to the OP and anyone else who can relate to the OP.
You're making the assumption that I am judging 'him'. What is it that actually makes you think that? I'm curious.
I don't judge people. That's not me. I accept people for who they are, what they are, and can only go off of what they tell me.
If I find that someone's comments are out of line with reality, I will tell them that. Above all things I think the best approach to helping someone is helping them to see reality and what is really there. To cast away their delusions so they can see things the way they really are. It doesn't mean they are any less of a person, nor that I think they are any less than that, if they happened to be lost at some point in their lives. They are still, to me, just a person who needs help. I was once, too. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all prone to this. I am not making myself the exception, there are absolutely no exceptions.
The real problem here, from what I can see, is why both you and Rainbows so immediately jump to the conclusion that I'm judging people? Again, why you ignore the advice that is there and don't look at the whole post, but focus on these minor issues. Why you have to twist words around?
Maybe, yeah, maybe I'm a jerk sometimes. But I'm also a jerk who sees through people and helps the ones who need the help.
Again, if you can do better.... Show me. I'll shutup and learn. I make mistakes like everyone else. So why is it you're judging me, assuming that, like you are implying, that criticism assumes judgement? Do YOU know my whole story? You don't even know me, so how could you?
ladyforsaken said:
Maybe even taken at face value what he said seemed disrespectful to you, but that might just be your view on it. It doesn't mean it's disrespectful to others or himself - you can only speak for yourself.
I am not someone who is so delusional to think that I am the only one who feels the way that I do about things.
Are you assuming otherwise? Do YOU think that I am completely alone in how I feel? I really don't understand what your point here is. Can you tell me what your point is? Because I want to know now.
ladyforsaken said:
Just because jealousy isn't the most positive emotion to have, doesn't mean that you disregard it. It still happens, whether you like it or not. Humans feel jealousy, even I do sometimes. If you say you don't, well good for ya. But that doesn't mean you disregard other people who feel this way. They are not you, and they cannot be like you to easily brush off a particular feeling or emotion.
So if I told you that I'm jealous of you right now. What are you going to do about this? Are you really going to do anything but disregard it?
You are right about one thing, though. I do not feel jealousy myself anymore. It is something I can disregard within myself, just as easily as I know others can disregard it within themselves.
But make no mistake here. I am not disregarding, ignoring, the jealousy. I am making the person aware of it and explaining that is not productive or necessary.
So you're not actually criticizing me for disregarding the jealousy, you're criticizing me for acknowledging and the way I dealt with it, by trying to get them to see it in disregard.
So, are you telling me that because we, as people, have this feeling of jealousy we should be using it? Respecting it? Appreciating it?
That's like saying if we get angry it's irrational to try to calm the person down. Is it really? Is it really okay to lash out and destroy things just because you're angry?
Is it really okay to do anything against anger but "disregard" it?
Again, show me a better way. Don't just criticize me, give me suggestions. Better yet, show me by example.
ladyforsaken said:
No basis in reality? Are you serious? Wow, don't you know it all.
As if this comment were really helpful or had a point itself.
Doesn't this remark itself imply that you're the know-it-all for knowing better than me, yet not stating how or why?
The above is an example of what I meant by not giving suggestions and just being critical or condescending. However, I would guide you to my previous post and demonstrate to you, again, that I had indeed provided advice simultaneously alongside my criticism. This is unlike your own comments which seem to be nothing but condemning and judgemental, and in no way really helpful to me in improving my behavior.
So, do you see my point now? You and Rainbows are in fact just judging me, it seems, being critical of my behavior but not providing any advice or alternatives.
But unlike your own behavior I was constructively criticizing someone. I provided both criticizing remarks as well as advice and suggestions to improve. I was attempting to close the current, improper perspective and meanwhile build up a new and proper one.
What you demonstrated above is called hypocrisy. You intended only to criticize me in this remark, and obviously provided nothing positive or productive. It was merely a judgmental comment and nothing more.
So is this really all you have for me, is this your true message? LadyForsaken, you have a reputation on these forums for being a caring and kind individual. I know this is in you and I know you can do better than this. Why is it you feel I am not deserving of this like everyone else? If I had low self-esteem as many people here do, I would be unable to deal with this situation properly. Is that really what you wish? I know that it is not. I look at your post as a whole, and despite any flaws, I see that you're just trying to help.
So I look at your post as a whole, and even you as a person as a whole, and I can tell that despite even an obvious hypocritical or condescending remark you can still be a good person behind that screen. I do not judge you. People say things they don't even mean all the time.
And yes, people used to call me a "know-it-all" all the time. Such remarks were just as unhelpful and unfriendly back then as they are now. Nothing has changed except my own perspective. I have changed both my inward and outward perspective in these years. So the question here is if I've changed so much, but I still hear this, am I really at fault for it? Maybe that answer isn't straight forward, but I'm sure you can see why I can easily disregard it.
ladyforsaken said:
I think I have done this thus far, sticking to what you really said that I don't feel were quite... helpful.
I still disagree with that, as you can see. I would also point out that you were probably even more unhelpful to me than I was to anyone else here. So if we're going to speak of this issue then why should we overlook ourselves? I am certainly not trying to do so.
And if this post warrants me getting cast aside because I "attacked" a respected member of this forum, it would not be the first time.
However, if you read it how it is actually intended, written by a real person, and do not forget that there are real people behind that screen of yours, as that is the message you seemed to want me to understand, then you'll see I am not really trying to 'attack' anyone here. And I will point out that yes, I do understand your point and message very well. I know very well that there are real people on the other end of my comments. It just might not come out in the best way because I'm a real person, too, with real feelings like everyone else, but that isn't to mean that I was not trying my best nor does it mean I was not giving any good advice.
I like to think that even if I make mistakes, sometimes, I'm still a good person. I do try my best. I have the best intentions. Maybe you disagree now but I stopped caring what others thought of me long ago. More importantly, I still listen to criticism and I still enjoy good advice when it is given to me. But if criticism is not useful or constructive than it's simply judgmental, and while others might 'suggest' I do such things myself I necessarily fail to see how because I rarely ever criticize without also giving constructive advice. Even worse, words get put into my mouth by the same people judging me. So I feel I am simply just misrepresented, all the time. I've lived through this time and time and time again. It's practically all I know anymore in regards to people.
So my advice is: Just take things for what they really are and don't try to see any more or less than what there really is. If there is any one message I could leave here with it would be that.
Now, I've spoken my mind and I don't think there is anything else for me to say on this matter. Feel free to crucify me or whatever you might wish to do, even if you don't even know you wish to do it. I'm rather used to all of that by now.
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