The Nice Guy syndrome. Are you suffering from it?

[user 139760]

It's a good point you make. I ca admit that.
But it's very difficult for an old dog to learn new tricks.
Yes, I know, that's just using my age as an excuse now
.
It's just real hard for me to change anything - like going from windows 7 to windows 11 - let alone habits that have developed over a lifetime.

Well, listen, let me tell you a lil story real quick, reflect on it. You don't need to reply to it.
My dad was a fireman. Rather good looking man, funny, bit rough around the edges. I'm a lot like him, maybe a little rougher.
Growing up with him, even though we only have like a 20 year difference (he just turned 65, I'm turning 44), I often heard the excuse "I'm too old". For various reasons, on various things. I called it the Captain Kirk Syndrome (some people will laugh at the dorkness, I don't care ). In Wrath of Khan, Kirk feels old, brittle, washed up.
By the end of the movie, he doesn't anymore. He learned that age is just a number and that he was stuck in a self-fulfilling pattern, one he continued to fuel himself. He suddenly feels young, hopeful again. Because he was. My dad didn't learn from this and while he was in mych better shape only 5 years ago, he's basically doing nothing but stick to his habits and he's sloely letting himself die. Me and my sis are rather distraught over it. Because...he's NOT old. He just doesn't want to convince himself of that. Because of that, nothing will change and he will NOT pass on a happy man. Not the one I used to know.

You can do better than that, "old dog". Maybe try out someone who won't automatically will say yes to you for a few bucks. You might find yourself more enriched by it than the cycle you've been in.
Just food for thought, dude.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I've read a little into this, and yes, I do think there is such a thing as 'Too Nice', to the point where you have no 'edge' at all.

One theory that was explained to me, was that the ideal, or most desirable man, is one who is capable of violence, but has it under control and can be a family man.

It makes a large degree of sense to me, the sexiest jobs for men are soldiers, police, firemen etc, roles where they are capable of using their body to control a situation, but doesn't go around starting fights to assert dominance. This isn't the idea that women want a thug, but they do want someone who could protect and take care of them if the sh*t hit the fan. Even your average doorman at a nightclub usually does pretty well in terms of dating, and they're never usually attractive people.

Even in literature, the top women's erotic fantasy stereotypes are; vampire, werewolf, pirate, ex-con, biker, you get the idea. These are all people who have a large capacity for violence, but show extraordinary love and affection to the female protagonist, and never start a fight or do anything actually bad within the plot of the book.

As for myself, you could argue that I'm very agreeable, and that puts me away from the 'edgy' mould that is appealing. I'm physically muscular and strong, but I don't have any aggressive tendencies, and will usually try to talk or apologise my way out of a physical confrontation wherever possible, there's just too much risk of being stabbed these days. Some men exude this aura of sexuality, whereas there are perfectly normal men that I just can't imagine as being sexual beings; some of them have kids, so I assume they must at some point have ***, but their whole vibe just screams 'asexual'. I can't see myself objectively, but I imagine I may be one of those people to others.

 

[user 139760]

I've read a little into this, and yes, I do think there is such a thing as 'Too Nice', to the point where you have no 'edge' at all.

One theory that was explained to me, was that the ideal, or most desirable man, is one who is capable of violence, but has it under control and can be a family man.

It makes a large degree of sense to me, the sexiest jobs for men are soldiers, police, firemen etc, roles where they are capable of using their body to control a situation, but doesn't go around starting fights to assert dominance. This isn't the idea that women want a thug, but they do want someone who could protect and take care of them if the sh*t hit the fan. Even your average doorman at a nightclub usually does pretty well in terms of dating, and they're never usually attractive people.

Even in literature, the top women's erotic fantasy stereotypes are; vampire, werewolf, pirate, ex-con, biker, you get the idea. These are all people who have a large capacity for violence, but show extraordinary love and affection to the female protagonist, and never start a fight or do anything actually bad within the plot of the book.

As for myself, you could argue that I'm very agreeable, and that puts me away from the 'edgy' mould that is appealing. I'm physically muscular and strong, but I don't have any aggressive tendencies, and will usually try to talk or apologise my way out of a physical confrontation wherever possible, there's just too much risk of being stabbed these days. Some men exude this aura of sexuality, whereas there are perfectly normal men that I just can't imagine as being sexual beings; some of them have kids, so I assume they must at some point have ***, but their whole vibe just screams 'asexual'. I can't see myself objectively, but I imagine I may be one of those people to others.

I think that's a load of crap.
By that definition, me and most of the men in my family would be the ideal men (firemen, construction workers, policeman, etc).
I think it varies wildly.
Most girls I've seen on dating apps since last year were mostly looking for slightly fat, tall bearded teddy bears, or so I've seen (I never thought of Kevin Smith as a *** symbol, but...).

 

[user 135671]

me and most of the men in my family would be the ideal men (firemen, construction workers, policeman, etc).

Blimey O reilly! you'd be the bloody Village People!

 

[user 139760]

Blimey O reilly! you'd be the bloody Village People!

Aw shucks. You never saw me dressed as a native American.
Oups, no wait, can't anymore, that's cultural appropriation, nevermind

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I think that's a load of crap.
By that definition, me and most of the men in my family would be the ideal men (firemen, construction workers, policeman, etc).
I think it varies wildly.
Most girls I've seen on dating apps since last year were mostly looking for slightly fat, tall bearded teddy bears, or so I've seen (I never thought of Kevin Smith as a *** symbol, but...).

I mean, you understand I can't talk about specific cases such as the men in your family, but most of what I've stated in my post is backed up by facts. Such jobs do usually end up on the 'sexiest jobs for men' lists, along with high-earning ones such as lawyers and investment bankers, and the top archetypes in women's erotic fiction are the ones I listed. So I don't really think the theory can be dismissed out of hand just because you or someone you know is in one of those jobs and isn't drowning in babes. I'm a muscular mechanical engineer that couldn't get laid in a women's prison with a fistful of pardons. I still don't dismiss the theory as a general rule.

Even in the example you listed of women seeking big bearded men, tells us something. They want someone who can protect them, they're seeking tall and broad, even if they're unconcerned with a tummy. Having a beard is historically a sign of testosterone and masculinity, and it's been a trend for the last 8 years among men. So yeah, women generally want something of a masculine man, who's going to be nice to them, but still has enough of a backbone to stand up for himself.

 

[user 139760]

I mean, you understand I can't talk about specific cases such as the men in your family, but most of what I've stated in my post is backed up by facts. Such jobs do usually end up on the 'sexiest jobs for men' lists, along with high-earning ones such as lawyers and investment bankers, and the top archetypes in women's erotic fiction are the ones I listed. So I don't really think the theory can be dismissed out of hand just because you or someone you know is in one of those jobs and isn't drowning in babes. I'm a muscular mechanical engineer that couldn't get laid in a women's prison with a fistful of pardons. I still don't dismiss the theory as a general rule.

Even in the example you listed of women seeking big bearded men, tells us something. They want someone who can protect them, they're seeking tall and broad, even if they're unconcerned with a tummy. Having a beard is historically a sign of testosterone and masculinity, and it's been a trend for the last 8 years among men. So yeah, women generally want something of a masculine man, who's going to be nice to them, but still has enough of a backbone to stand up for himself.

Who cares what women want?
That's my entire point.
Lots of books, lots of podcasts, lots of garbage preaching to men who don't view themselves as "successful" with the other *** float sround out there. Men waste so much time trying to please soneone, they totally forget about being themselves and no matter who you are abd what you do, THAT'S the common denominator of everyone desirable woman I've ever talked to desires the most im a man; legitimacy. Being who you are and not trying to be someone you're not.
Be you, let that shine and the "babes" will come to you. I'm not saying not to change anything; I'm saying to do it because it pleases you to do so, not to make women happy.
At least, that's my take on it.
I'm a very normal, average looking dude. I've never had trouble attracting attention. Sometimes I've attracted more than I cared to. I don't think it's because I was either big, or strong, or macho, or whatever. It's because I am who I am and made no apologies for it. I don't try to please except when I feel like it, because it brings ME pleasure to do so, not because I'm expecting something back, which is where I think so many miss the mark.

But that's just what I think.
You wouldn't want to get laid in a woman's prison, I think. They're likely in there for a reason
There's also a big difference between dating online and real life. I've had a bare minimum of success online. Quite the opposite of real life. That's because my personality doesn't carry over that well online. That's a very big factor.

 

[Adamridge79]

I don't see what's wrong with being nice. I'm not a doormat, but it doesn't take much effort to just be nice. There was a lot to read, I'll admit I only really glanced. But if it even remotely relates to these posts about how females blah blah nice guy blah, I don't get it. I have to live in my own head. And that is not a fun place currently, so if I can just be nice to strangers, I'm going to pick that. Again, that was some long stuff to read. If I'm not in the spirit of the reason for the thread, I apologize

 

[Unsigned]

so if I can just be nice to strangers, I'm going to pick that.

I agree.

Problem is that "nice" is perceived by many females as "boring".
Truly a first world problem.
IMO, males should be judged by females on (1) can put food on the table, clothes on their back and a roof over their head (2) potentially a good, kind father (3) they don't hit their gf/wife.
Not being an "edgy bad boy" who makes them "tingle".
But what do I know? I'm old fashioned I guess.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, boring is good.
I like being bored because for the vast majority of my life when I was growing up I was either being a "boring guy" or something bad was happening to me. So yeah...I'll take boring.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

I've read a little into this, and yes, I do think there is such a thing as 'Too Nice', to the point where you have no 'edge' at all.

One theory that was explained to me, was that the ideal, or most desirable man, is one who is capable of violence, but has it under control and can be a family man.

It makes a large degree of sense to me, the sexiest jobs for men are soldiers, police, firemen etc, roles where they are capable of using their body to control a situation, but doesn't go around starting fights to assert dominance. This isn't the idea that women want a thug, but they do want someone who could protect and take care of them if the sh*t hit the fan. Even your average doorman at a nightclub usually does pretty well in terms of dating, and they're never usually attractive people.

Even in literature, the top women's erotic fantasy stereotypes are; vampire, werewolf, pirate, ex-con, biker, you get the idea. These are all people who have a large capacity for violence, but show extraordinary love and affection to the female protagonist, and never start a fight or do anything actually bad within the plot of the book.

As for myself, you could argue that I'm very agreeable, and that puts me away from the 'edgy' mould that is appealing. I'm physically muscular and strong, but I don't have any aggressive tendencies, and will usually try to talk or apologise my way out of a physical confrontation wherever possible, there's just too much risk of being stabbed these days. Some men exude this aura of sexuality, whereas there are perfectly normal men that I just can't imagine as being sexual beings; some of them have kids, so I assume they must at some point have ***, but their whole vibe just screams 'asexual'. I can't see myself objectively, but I imagine I may be one of those people to others.

I agree, stats i’ve seen support your view here. Its like accents, Irish was rated the hottest to women, doesn't mean Irish incels aren’t a thing.

I think those professions have such a strong appeal theres dating sites for men that only do jobs like that.

The nice guy syndrome is problematic due to the manipulative element. Its funny men are quick to call out women who cry on demand to manipulate men, but not other men who use the fact that some men out there are bad/dangerous/lacking in morals to manipulate women. The nice guy argument relies on the abusive men in society. A guy has said things like “i’d never hit you, so you’d be lucky to be with me” …

 

[Unsigned]

A guy has said things like “i’d never hit you, so you’d be lucky to be with me” …

I have to admit, I did say something similar to a girl once.
She was miffed that I yelled at her - which she more than earned, btw.
So I came back at her with that.
She had been very unappreciative of everything I did for her (which was a lot) as well.
It wasn't such a good thing for me to say...but I think you'd agree...it was better than hitting her...

 

[CenotaphGirl]

I have to admit, I did say something similar to a girl once.
She was miffed that I yelled at her - which she more than earned, btw.
So I came back at her with that.
She had been very unappreciative of everything I did for her (which was a lot) as well.
It wasn't such a good thing for me to say...but I think you'd agree...it was better than hitting her...

I dont think you should be hitting or yelling at anyone personally. I would rather you walked away stoic and unbothered because as a man there is nothing more attractive than that. Its something that makes them unique and seem more masculine to me… being able to not get a reaction out of them. Ugh someone get me a glass of water

Being honest though, the main issue with my context was that was his reason I should date him not actually due to an argument, and it just sounds so bloody creepy to me. Its like you may as well list the other crimes against women men lead the charts in… just so im sure

 

[Unsigned]

I would rather you walked away stoic and unbothered because as a man there is nothing more attractive than that.

Well, it was in South Korea, so I may have gotten lost.

The argument was a straw that broke the camel's back type of thing...I am not quick to anger.
And no, she was never in danger of me hitting her. That was just a quip I was making to get my point across.
I care about my own freedom too much to do that to myself.

 

[michael2]

I agree.

IMO, males should be judged by females on (1) can put food on the table, clothes on their back and a roof over their head

So we're just a piggybank.

More women then men are graduating from higher education for some time now and people still want us men to always be the breadwinners? I understand wanting him to work with stable employment and income, but to be the primary/sole provider of shelter and food? I don't know where you live, but where I live a small one bedroom apartment in a decent area is $1800 a month. You got to make minimum $29 an hour to qualify to stay there. Of all the guys I keep in contact with only one of them makes that much.

We could do that in the 50s and 60s when us men had all the high paying jobs and women stayed home and raised a family. That isn't the case anymore. We have to compete with women now for high paying jobs. That means a big chunk of men are going to now make less money then women. And I don't think many women want to be the breadwinner, thus the coming collapse of world population.

 

[ardour]

Its funny men are quick to call out women who cry on demand to manipulate men, but not other men who use the fact that some men out there are bad/dangerous/lacking in morals to manipulate women. The nice guy argument relies on the abusive men in society.

"I'm not a rapist-abuser" doesn't qualify someone as a good boyfriend and will never be a good pickup line, no, but - this is victim blaming I guess - women in these relationships often seem to be making a free decision to be with the, er, "not boring" guy. Love bombing aside a lot of abusive people aren't clever enough to hide it well.

 

[SquareBin]

So we're just a piggybank.

More women then men are graduating from higher education for some time now and people still want us men to always be the breadwinners? I understand wanting him to work with stable employment and income, but to be the primary/sole provider of shelter and food? I don't know where you live, but where I live a small one bedroom apartment in a decent area is $1800 a month. You got to make minimum $29 an hour to qualify to stay there. Of all the guys I keep in contact with only one of them makes that much.

We could do that in the 50s and 60s when us men had all the high paying jobs and women stayed home and raised a family. That isn't the case anymore. We have to compete with women now for high paying jobs. That means a big chunk of men are going to now make less money then women. And I don't think many women want to be the breadwinner, thus the coming collapse of world population.

I think what makes me worried is that people will judge based on salary, which is just a number. I personnaly don't really care how much my future partner makes, as long as she is doing something, I'd be happy

but alas... gender norms won't change it seems...

 

[user 139760]

I think what makes me worried is that people will judge based on salary, which is just a number. I personnaly don't really care how much my future partner makes, as long as she is doing something, I'd be happy

but alas... gender norms won't change it seems...

The right one won't.
It may be very idealistic or old school of me, I keep seeing the same stats and topics over and over, women this, men that...am I the only one looking for someone that transcends all that?
The ideal woman for me won't care about how much I make, wether I provide or not, wether I make more than her, or snore when I sleep, or any other small details. She'll like me, for me. As much the good as the bad, which she'll hopefully find tolerable and not so bad. Because I'm willing to do the same for her. It doesn't matter to me that she's not Kim Basinger, ir farts at inopportune times, or doesn't eat the same things I do or think the same things I do; fact is, I'll probably admire her more for it.
Attracting girls...attracting the RIGHT girl is far more important. The other half.
Might be incredibly naive...but I won't settle for less.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

"I'm not a rapist-abuser" doesn't qualify someone as a good boyfriend and will never be a good pickup line

My point is, to a guy with nice guy syndrome this is not a pick up line but a literal right to passage. It reminds me of extortion like “pay me and i’ll protect you from people like me”

 

[ardour]

So we're just a piggybank.

More women then men are graduating from higher education for some time now and people still want us men to always be the breadwinners? I understand wanting him to work with stable employment and income, but to be the primary/sole provider of shelter and food? I don't know where you live, but where I live a small one bedroom apartment in a decent area is $1800 a month. You got to make minimum $29 an hour to qualify to stay there. Of all the guys I keep in contact with only one of them makes that much.

We could do that in the 50s and 60s when us men had all the high paying jobs and women stayed home and raised a family. That isn't the case anymore. We have to compete with women now for high paying jobs. That means a big chunk of men are going to now make less money then women. And I don't think many women want to be the breadwinner, thus the coming collapse of world population.

Possibly explains why many men are giving up on higher education altogether and focusing on trades. What's the point if anything less than remarkable isn't good enough?

 

[TheRealCallie]

A guy has said things like “i’d never hit you, so you’d be lucky to be with me” …

Several guys have said that to me. Then later down the road, they did. So, for me words don't mean crap. Actions do. SHOW me what you're about, because that is what I'm going to believe.

"I'm not a rapist-abuser" doesn't qualify someone as a good boyfriend and will never be a good pickup line, no, but - this is victim blaming I guess - women in these relationships often seem to be making a free decision to be with the, er, "not boring" guy. Love bombing aside a lot of abusive people aren't clever enough to hide it well.

Boring is subjective though. For example, I hate fishing. It's boring as hell and I'd just throw them back anyway. But there are lots of girls out there who love to go fishing. This can apply to anything.