You’re single because you’re ugly

[mgill]

Ok now he's preachy.

providing information is being preachy? it seems that when people are uncomfortable with the facts they like to label it as being preachy. i can imagine that the anti slavery movement was also consider preachy at the time.  if i were posting about not being racist, not abusing women or not dog fighting no one would ever suggest this.  it is likely a form of cognitive dissonance.

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You guys aren't eating me are you? Ha! ha!

Crickets are unironically a sustainable and socially-sound source of protein.

so are dogs & cats-should humans eat them also?

 

[TheRealCallie]

Some cultures DO eat dogs and cats. 

Most of the people I know get their meat from local farms (I have done the research, I know how they treat their animals) or they raise and butcher the animals themselves.  So yeah, sometimes it can be tricky, but not so much in rural areas of America.  You can find out pretty much anything about the farms nearby and a lot of them will let you tour any time you want. 

People are harmed and killed all the time, so are animals for sport.  I personally don't feel that you need to kill animals to survive, but that's my own belief.  Others have different beliefs.  You could connect killing and eating animals to a lot of things, but in the end, they are all different things.  And yes, you can be preachy about anything, whether it's religion, killing animals for food or slavery.  It all entirely depends on how you say what you want to say. 

And as a side note, do you have to turn EVERYTHING into a damn joke, Finished?

 

[Nicolelt]

i am pretty ripped from a very clean vegan diet & intense weight training. i am also very healthy (have not been to a doctor in around 20 years), make over 6 figures & have zero debt.  my head is already shaved and has been for a long time. i actually have a pretty good life aside from having zero success with women. i feel i have done just about everything already yet have only had rejections.

This makes me sad. I believe you, I just don't understand why a woman would not want to date you. If you are living a healthy life, making (what would be in my area) a really good living, and have no debt. I bet you probably own a home too. I feel like even the most desperate women would want that security in their life. I'm sorry.

 

[ardour]

Simple answer is he isn't confident enough, can't take the lead, strongarm or charm his way into a woman's life. Women from my own generation are particularly ruthless about these things. They can't stand any hesitancy and can't even process weakness let alone accept it. 50 years of feminism but some of these people still expect men to get all pushy, even to the point of overriding boundaries. Doesn't matter what else you might have to offer, you're either a Real Man or you're nothing.

 

[Aardra]

For the record, OP, a guy being a vegan is a plus in my book. I myself am sporadically vegetarian, so any guy who has the willpower to do that, well... it speaks a lot. I really think you are selling yourself short and letting your frustrations get the better of you; because other than the constant winging I'm seeing, you seem like an otherwise intelligent and, yes, attractive man. And I don't even know what you look like.

I'm single. I've been single for 12 years. You think it's easy for a 6'4'' trans woman to find a date? Let alone a (mostly) straight 6'4'' trans woman? I intimidate men, and to cover for their sudden lack of security regarding their own sexuality they react with jokes and laughter. I just walked into a Starbucks to get my order, and a group of guys kept stealing glances at me, nudging each other and chuckling like 10 year olds. Turned their heads when they saw that I'd noticed them. I see that **** everywhere I go. And yet I still harbor a sliver of hope that maybe, just maybe, I might find a guy who loves me as a woman. Loves me for me.

امید کمرنگ است اما امید است.

I am a joke to most people, let alone to most men. Sure plenty are willing to sleep with me, because to them I'm just an experiment, a way to take their bi-curiosity for a test drive without it "really" being gay. Maybe they even pat themselves on the back for it. How forward-thinking. How progressive. But will I ever find a guy who's willing to call me his girlfriend? Introduce me to his friends? His parents? ...Hold my hand in public? Very. Likely. Not.

So seeing you in this thread talking about how you're ripped and rich and successful, but bemoaning your lack of hair and what... a few inches of height? I admit, I want to be supportive, but it makes me scoff. This isn't a competition, but reading your posts I just can't help but think... "so what?" You're cis and hetero. Go out to a club. Use Tinder or Plenty of Fish or any of the other 9,426,393 dating apps tailored largely, if not specifically, for you. What's the worst that could happen? They swipe left? They say they're not interested?

At least they won't ******* laugh at you.

 

[Nicolelt]

Simple answer is he isn't confident enough, can't  take the lead, strongarm or  charm his way into a woman's life. Women from my own generation in particular are ruthless about these things. They can't stand any  hesitancy and can't  eve process weakness  let alone accept it. 50 years of feminism  but some of these people still expect  men to  get all pushy through even to the point of overriding boundaries.  Doesn't matter what else you might have to offer, you're a Real Man or you're nothing.

That makes sense to me. Hesitancy is a turn off.

 

[ardour]

Simple answer is he isn't confident enough, can't  take the lead, strongarm or  charm his way into a woman's life. Women from my own generation in particular are ruthless about these things. They can't stand any  hesitancy and can't  eve process weakness  let alone accept it. 50 years of feminism  but some of these people still expect  men to  get all pushy through even to the point of overriding boundaries.  Doesn't matter what else you might have to offer, you're a Real Man or you're nothing.

That makes sense to me. Hesitancy is a turn off.

I don't know if you understand that  I was being critical of this.  They get to be hesitant; they get to be weak. Hell most of them have never had to ask anyone out in their lives.  It really colours your cynicism as to the 'I'm looking for a companion' and 'I don't prioritize looks' statements, when in reality they looking for a Real Man they can lean on but who doesn't need to lean on them. 

That preference for strong masculinity is also kind of a  joke because....how do I put this, a lot of women at this age don't exactly have a lot of feminine appeal.[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] S[/font]ome of us don't want to play into rigidly defined gender roles  either. We're not performing seals and it's tedious, as well as risky to have to keep doing that.

 

[Aardra]

Simple answer is he isn't confident enough, can't  take the lead, strongarm or  charm his way into a woman's life. Women from my own generation in particular are ruthless about these things. They can't stand any  hesitancy and can't  eve process weakness  let alone accept it. 50 years of feminism  but some of these people still expect  men to  get all pushy through even to the point of overriding boundaries.  Doesn't matter what else you might have to offer, you're a Real Man or you're nothing.

That makes sense to me. Hesitancy is a turn off.

I don't know if you understand that  I was being critical of this.  They get to be hesitant; they get to be weak. Hell most of them have had a  a string of relationships never having had to ask anyone out in their lives.  It really colours your cynicism as to the 'I'm looking for a companion' and 'I don't prioritize looks' statements, when in reality they looking for a Real Man they can lean on but who can't lean on them. 

That preference for strong masculinity is also kind of a  joke because....how do I put this, a lot of women at this age don't exactly have a lot of feminine appeal..[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] S[/font]ome of us don't want to play into rigidly defined gender roles  either. We're not performing seals and it's tedious to have to keep doing that.

Lmao what women are you talking to? Do you even talk to women outside of screenspace? Wow. This is some /r/MenWritingWomen material.

Hesitancy is a turn-off, but so is aggressiveness. You can't force attraction. And for the record, when a woman IS forward and approaches the man, she's presumed to be promiscuous or desperate. So naw.

 

[ardour]

Lmao what women are you talking to? Do you even talk to women outside of screenspace? Wow. This is some /r/MenWritingWomen material.

Hesitancy is a turn-off, but so is aggressiveness. You can't force attraction. And for the record, when a woman IS forward and approaches the man, she's presumed to be promiscuous or desperate. So naw.

  I do have a life and that's my impression, particularly of the over 30's with their less enlightened attitudes. 

They benefit from a  status quo where men have to walk this tightrope while they can stay passive. And sadly lot of women do expect a degree of pushiness in men, so they'll  deliberately act aloof to test interest level (I've heard at least half a dozen women say this) And in the #metoo era this is obnoxious. Can certainly see why many guys are too scared to try.

 

[Nicolelt]

Simple answer is he isn't confident enough, can't  take the lead, strongarm or  charm his way into a woman's life. Women from my own generation in particular are ruthless about these things. They can't stand any  hesitancy and can't  eve process weakness  let alone accept it. 50 years of feminism  but some of these people still expect  men to  get all pushy through even to the point of overriding boundaries.  Doesn't matter what else you might have to offer, you're a Real Man or you're nothing.

That makes sense to me. Hesitancy is a turn off.

I don't know if you understand that  I was being critical of this.  They get to be hesitant; they get to be weak. Hell most of them have  never had to ask anyone out in their lives.  It really colours your cynicism as to the 'I'm looking for a companion' and 'I don't prioritize looks' statements, when in reality they looking for a Real Man they can lean on but who can't lean on them. 

That preference for strong masculinity is also kind of a  joke because....how do I put this, a lot of women at this age don't exactly have a lot of feminine appeal.[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] S[/font]ome of us don't want to play into rigidly defined gender roles  either. We're not performing seals and it's tedious, as well as risky to have to keep doing that.

No, I understand. I don't think I went into depth enough. I agree with you. It's a double standard that is impossible to figure out. Women want to be self sufficient, but want to be swept off their feet by some big strong man hero that will care for him. We don't want to be hit on, but we don't want to make the first move. I am 100% guilty of all of this myself. I can see why mentally, being rejected over and over again can make you think "What is the point?"

My thing with mgill is that he seems to have a lot going for him from what he said in his post. I feel like he could save some desperate damsel in distress with his healthy/secure life. But I understand, when you are rejected so many times, it adds to the hurt. And why would you want to hurt anymore?

 

[Aardra]

So straight-up misogyny, then. Gotcha.

 

[ardour]

You can label me a misogynist while saying things like "hesitancy is a turn-off" free of widespread criticism. As per usual gender norms firmly in place when they happen to apply to straight men.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I have no issues asking guys out or sending a message to them first.  I know there are other women out there that do it too.  I'm not saying what you said doesn't happen because it does and quite often, but that's not every woman.  Giving up when there are women out there that you are looking for isn't going to get you anywhere that you want to be.
I get the sense that you don't want to give up, but you feel like you have to, ardour. I'm still waiting to hear your positives, also.

 

[Aardra]

You can label me a misogynist while saying things like  "hesitancy is a turn-off" free of widespread criticism. As per usual gender norms  firmly in place when they happen to apply to straight men.

lmao you're gonna lecture ME about gender norms. Oh dear.  :club:

 

[user 115627]

Lmao what women are you talking to? Do you even talk to women outside of screenspace? Wow. This is some /r/MenWritingWomen material.

Hesitancy is a turn-off, but so is aggressiveness. You can't force attraction. And for the record, when a woman IS forward and approaches the man, she's presumed to be promiscuous or desperate. So naw.

I do have a life and that's my impression, particularly of the over 30's with their less enlightened attitudes. 

They benefit from a  status quo where men have to walk this tightrope while they can stay passive. And sadly lot of women do expect a degree of pushiness in men, so they'll  deliberately act aloof to test interest level (I've heard at least half a dozen women say this) And in the  #metoo era this is obnoxious. Can certainly see why many guys  are too scared to try.

To add some mediating statements...I think there are differences in attitude between men and women of different generations but the perspective of the average person does not follow in lockstep with social and political movements of that time - positive or negative ones. Neither will there ever be a full adoption of any enlightened ideas by the people at large, some ideas (religious belief for example) only start disappearing with older generations fading away.

Whether any or apparently every woman who approaches a man first is perceived as promiscuous or desperate depends on the attitude of the man and whatever audience might be there. If they are tradcons, then neither the man nor the audience would be your company of choice, at least as far as I can tell. It's not a success, but it's an experience. Let's not forget that it also depends on your own words and the setting (bar, club, diner, meetup, website, dating app).

So if hesitancy if a turn-off for women, is hesitancy a turn-on for men? If so, which men - all of them? Or is it just coincidental because they are still used to making the first move on what they merely perceive as a "passive" woman in the assumption she wouldn't do it, either because of stigma, laziness or just convenient habit. Just something I had on my mind. Maybe I'm not even sure what turn-off means in that regard, is it literally unattractive? Some people think playing coy is attractive or cute, but that's a positive way of framing a similar behavior...mostly in women, I think. Tell me if I'm off base.

It's hard to say with what messages I grew up and I'm closing in on 30. Maybe I just ignored the messages and raised myself, so to be frank: I don't extrapolate on any attention that is bestowed on me by a woman (or any person) unless it's bloody straightforward because I don't like being wrong and I dislike our wonky conventions of interpreting cues and vibes, particularly in the realm of "romance". I'm really not interested in having to deal with anyone who can resort to plausible deniability when you fail to read their signals either. Honestly...I think as long as the convention of men guessing and approaching first is still more common than the opposite and women's attitudes ranging anywhere from ultra-conservative to liberal freethinker, I guess we'll just have to deal with the fallout.

I know I didn't address non-heterosexuals or transgender people but that is its own battlefield and I think this one is already big enough for me. Trying to compare the situations of transwomen and straight men...I just don't think it works, there are even more factors to consider and we all know how complex the situation is already. In other threads I have addressed the plight of being a minority of any flavor in general, some are obviously more visible and/or discriminated than others. But for the individual it always sucks and it doesn't help to remind yourself that there are issues of different magnitudes. It's like trying to tally up suicide rates...that can be addressed on an societal level, but it might still do very little for you personally.

Straight men do not get much comfort from the idea that there are millions of other men out there struggling on the dating market, considering that they also perceive most of them as competition. To say they don't have to deal with being laughed at is just incorrect, I think plenty do deal with that and have been all their life. A single factor can be enough to draw ridicule. I think I would have understood it better if we were talking about the threat of being assaulted, because that's more apparent for trans people. But I think it would've also seemed somewhat hyperbolic, so I'm saying it instead.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I know I didn't address non-heterosexuals or transgender people but that is its own battlefield and I think this one is already big enough for me. Trying to compare the situations of transwomen and straight men...I just don't think it works, there are even more factors to consider and we all know how complex the situation is already.

Straight men do not get much comfort from the idea that there are millions of other men out there struggling on the dating market, considering that they also perceive most of them as competition. To say they don't have to deal with being laughed at is just incorrect, I think plenty do deal with that and have been all their life. A single factor can be enough to draw ridicule. I think I would have understood it better if we were talking about the threat of being assaulted, because that's more apparent for trans people. But I think it would've also seemed somewhat hyperbolic, so I'm saying it instead.

^I agree with all of these points.

It's true that straight men are less likely to get assaulted, but it's also true that straight men who are seen as not measuring up to traditional masculine ideals, can and do get laughed at - by women, other men, and society in general. In fact, for years, the same slurs that are used against gay people, were also used to describe straight men who were considered not masculine enough, for whatever reason - not strong/tough, rich, risk-taking, charismatic and popular enough, guys whose interests are seen as silly and childish (which is I think how a lot of "nerdy" guys are seen, unless they're the kind that makes money like programmers and such - and even they have to come up with something make up for not being macho)/don't have the right "masculine" and "adult" interests, shy/reserved or friendly instead of cold, competitive, sarcastic, cynical, contemptuous, "too cool for you", cocky/mocking and mean, and so on - in other words guys who are seen as too "harmless" to be a man, to be exciting, and competitive in a Darwinistic way - although now I feel like "incel" is taking over as the new term to use to replace those, for "loser", "weak/low status/inferior straight man", which strikes me as ironic - changing the term but meaning the same, still makes the person using it, the same monster. That's where leftists lose me, cause it's like, so you still support hierarchical thinking - cool story bro. Maybe it isn't as heavy as discrimination, but it does wear on you when society treats you as a joke or as inherently inferior - like inferiority is just built into who you are at your core. Like you fail at the thing you are supposed to be, and as such, there's no mercy or understanding for you.

Like the inadequacy/incompetence/weakness is an inherent quality to you, baked into your DNA - like everything you do or project out into the world is "multiplied" by your inferiority, and just comes out as less. Everything you do is lesser, because YOU are lesser.

1,000,000 units of hard work * 0.0000000000000001 units of being "right" = I'm too lazy to do math right now, but not much of a result.

Maybe it's all an illusion, but it can be one that's hard to break when you've had a lot of negative reinforcement, and little positive reinforcement.

 

[VanillaCreme]

i am pretty ripped from a very clean vegan diet & intense weight training. i am also very healthy (have not been to a doctor in around 20 years), make over 6 figures & have zero debt.  my head is already shaved and has been for a long time. i actually have a pretty good life aside from having zero success with women. i feel i have done just about everything already yet have only had rejections.

This makes me sad. I believe you, I just don't understand why a woman would not want to date you. If you are living a healthy life, making (what would be in my area) a really good living, and have no debt. I bet you probably own a home too. I feel like even the most desperate women would want that security in their life. I'm sorry.

It's the attitude.

 

[Aardra]

100% the attitude.

 

[ardour]

So if hesitancy if a turn-off for women, is hesitancy a turn-on for men? If so, which men - all of them? Or is it just coincidental because they are still used to making the first move on what they merely perceive as a "passive" woman in the assumption she wouldn't do it, either because of stigma, laziness or just convenient habit. J

Maybe for some brought up in highly conservative households, but the majority of men with vaguely progressive values I know aren't turned off by women who show interest or have a need to be the pursuer in all instances- at least I haven't heard anything like that. And the idea that women are going to be **** shamed for asking a guy to coffee is almost certainly an excuse to avoid shouldering some of the burden of initiating.

Like I said, as well as avoiding rejection, the majority of women use passivity to filter for masculine men with high enough interest. Men who can't take on this role aren't worth pairing up with. It's striking how even transwomen holds this (unstated but obvious) preference. Of course this results in a largish pool of men who for whatever reasons - childhood abuse, bullying, introversion  - find that difficult; this is why you're hearing more male complaints since shyness and high inhibition are incredibly common.

Maybe I shouldn't admit this, but it is mildly satisfying watching women hitting their late 30s/40s finally getting a taste of what sexual invisibility is like. They become different people; no longer these unapproachable avoidant creatures, but a lot friendlier and willing to relate - relate to men they probably wouldn't even have said hello to 15 years prior. A lot of our behaviour does just seem to be down to our options or lack of.

 

[mgill]

Some cultures DO eat dogs and cats. 

Most of the people I know get their meat from local farms (I have done the research, I know how they treat their animals) or they raise and butcher the animals themselves.  So yeah, sometimes it can be tricky, but not so much in rural areas of America.  You can find out pretty much anything about the farms nearby and a lot of them will let you tour any time you want. 

People are harmed and killed all the time, so are animals for sport.  I personally don't feel that you need to kill animals to survive, but that's my own belief.  Others have different beliefs.  You could connect killing and eating animals to a lot of things, but in the end, they are all different things.  And yes, you can be preachy about anything, whether it's religion, killing animals for food or slavery.  It all entirely depends on how you say what you want to say. 

And as a side note, do you have to turn EVERYTHING into a damn joke, Finished?

they do and most people who eat cows, pigs & chickens are outraged by it.  society considers intentionally harming & killing another human as the worst possible crime.  some people have the belief that raping women is justifiable but does that make it OK to do so?  if you read the article about slavery & animals that i posted it answers all of your objections in detail.  the connection between all forms of violence & exploitation is they operate under the same mindset & only the victims change.

even if one does not care a bit about the torture & slaugher of billions of sentient beings every year, the fate of the human race may very well rest upon society waking up in regards to this issue.

https://ladyfreethinker.org/plant-b...e-the-key-to-humanitys-survival-experts-warn/

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i am pretty ripped from a very clean vegan diet & intense weight training. i am also very healthy (have not been to a doctor in around 20 years), make over 6 figures & have zero debt.  my head is already shaved and has been for a long time. i actually have a pretty good life aside from having zero success with women. i feel i have done just about everything already yet have only had rejections.

This makes me sad. I believe you, I just don't understand why a woman would not want to date you. If you are living a healthy life, making (what would be in my area) a really good living, and have no debt. I bet you probably own a home too. I feel like even the most desperate women would want that security in their life. I'm sorry.

thanks for your empathy.  what you have stated is exactly why i am certain it is only my height & looks which are holding me back.