You ever feel like it's all rigged against you?

[Paraiyar]

I've just come to that view overtime from seeing you give your opinion of various things within this forum. You seem like a thinker. I will say though that I can't help but wonder if that self-doubt is leading you to over analyze things and spend too much time thinking and not a enough time doing. I've been guilty of this and I'm in the process of turning it around now. I really need to move out this year and I'm fairly optimistic that good things will come as a result of me doing so.

I think one of the reasons that guys who don't seem very interesting might do well in this area is that they tend to go with the flow more and worry less and so they end up seeming more natural to women. That results in the girls feeling comfortable around them. I do know the feeling of not having much to say but I find that this doesn't happen when I'm talking to the right person.

I'm guessing there is a reason why you aren't working right now? Also, maybe you should put more of that time that you've spending o the internet into your guitar playing. It's a worthwhile investment for life. If I can add one more suggesting, maybe you should start going for runs if you don't already. You'll look and feel better. I started doing this a few months ago and have more energy than I used to.

I hope none of this post sounds like I'm being a know-it-all or anything but I'm just trying to see what might benefit you.

 

[Xpendable]

[...]plenty of people who do well with very desirable women aren't that interesting to begin with[...]

Weird that no one called you out on that.

???

I observed an insistent spiel that says that every relationship is deserved, as is if you see someone as deficient or lacking in the aptitudes to have a partner is actually your own bias. That that people are interesting and great in their own way and that's why they are with desirable women/men. That somehow is impossible that sometimes totally uninteresting or bland people get to have attractive partners.

---

I think that some girls think I am interesting at first, but I run into problems later because I don't do much, and because I don't do much, I don't have much to talk about. I don't have much of an identity. I'm not working right now and spend a lot of time surfing the Internet trying to solve my problems or just killing time. I spend a lot of time thinking about the various problems I have with things, which doesn't give me much to talk to girls or anyone about really, since talking about problems with people you want to date seems to make them go cold. In addition to working, I feel like I should be doing more hobbies and even reading more, pursuing some kind of skill. I feel the progress makes people interesting, when they gain new knowledge, abilities, or ideas.

I think self-doubt is a big problem of mine. I doubt that I'll get good at anything or that I'll find anything interesting to read and think about or that even if I do get good at things and even if I have something neat to talk about, that women just won't like me anyway because I'm just not good enough. This fear of not being good enough no matter what, is a big part of why I never feel like doing anything.

Why we developed this theory in which we must be concerned all the time to entertain other people; or in this case, women?
I dislike this state in which men feel inadequate because they don't play any instrument or play a sport, or travel; or speak other languages. Like if you're not some uber-engaging, charismatic entertainer you're not good enough to be considered attractive.
I consider myself an interesting person, but that's because I wonder about things that interests me. I play the piano, I play sports (many times alone because friends are lazy), I speak english and I'm learning french. I can create music and transcribe music. I can write stories and draw, I can talk about politics, philosophy, art, current events, science and pop culture. But you know what? I did all that for myself. Because I wanted to; because it was interesting "to me". An you know what else? I'm as alone as I would be if I didn't know any of that. Because girls don't care about that, those are just aggregates, bonus features that they can appreciate only when they're already attracted to you. I've never had an interesting conversation with a female. Never. In the sense I've never received an important insight from them. I've talked interesting subjects with them and sometimes they hold up, but I've never had an "aha" moment by talking to them, I've never been illuminated by them. To be fair, with men has been almost the same.
I'm happy with playing Chopin for me, or debating about deep subjects in my mind. And I'll be happy to share all this "interesting" things with other people and maybe been considered attractive to women with all this, but I realize is not gonna happen. Not gonna happen until I meet a female equivalent of myself, and who knows what are the odds on that.
So ask yourself too: Are they trying their best to be interesting for me? Are women concerned about picking up a guitar or whatever to become a richer human being to being around? To they care about what men may want to find in them? To bring something meaningful to the table?

 

[Paraiyar]

[...]plenty of people who do well with very desirable women aren't that interesting to begin with[...]

Weird that no one called you out on that.

???

I observed an insistent spiel that says that every relationship is deserved, as is if you see someone as deficient or lacking in the aptitudes to have a partner is actually your own bias. That that people are interesting and great in their own way and that's why they are with desirable women/men. That somehow is impossible that sometimes totally uninteresting or bland people get to have attractive partners.

Oh, I see. I think being able to act natural around women is one of the more important things for maing them feel comfortable with you and not necessarily being interesting.

 

[Xpendable]

I asume "natural" comes from nature (?) It may be that my nature isn't specialy attractive to women. I really don't want to change myself to an arbitary archetype.

 

[Paraiyar]

I meant that if you act all tense around them and not like how you would when you aren't feeling self-conscious then they will pick up on it and not like it.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Why we developed this theory in which we must be concerned all the time to entertain other people; or in this case, women?
I dislike this state in which men feel inadequate because they don't play any instrument or play a sport, or travel; or speak other languages. Like if you're not some uber-engaging, charismatic entertainer you're not good enough to be considered attractive.

I don't think we HAVE to be concerned all the time with entertaining others, and I'm definitely not promoting the idea that anyone should feel inadequate. But, I'm just saying that I feel this is part of my own problem. I feel that one of the reasons I don't do so well with women is because I don't have a compelling enough personality, and I believe I could fix that at least somewhat by doing more. I look at other men and try to emulate their success, and I've noticed two main ways that men attract women. One is to be a hyper-masculine, rebellious, cocky "cool" guy. But I don't have the experience or background to act that way, and I also just don't like it. That leaves the other way, which is to be interesting and engaging by cultivating interests. I feel like this way suits who I want to be more, and it's something I want to do for myself anyway.

I consider myself an interesting person, but that's because I wonder about things that interests me. I play the piano, I play sports (many times alone because friends are lazy), I speak english and I'm learning french. I can create music and transcribe music. I can write stories and draw, I can talk about politics, philosophy, art, current events, science and pop culture. But you know what? I did all that for myself. Because I wanted to; because it was interesting "to me".

Don't get me wrong, all the stuff I want to do I wanted to do for me too. These were all things I thought about and wanted to do before meeting any girls I've wanted to date. I just feel that in addition to making me more interesting to myself, they'd also help me have more to offer conversationally. It would give me a purpose, it would give me knowledge, it would make me more compelling.

An you know what else? I'm as alone as I would be if I didn't know any of that. Because girls don't care about that, those are just aggregates, bonus features that they can appreciate only when they're already attracted to you. I've never had an interesting conversation with a female. Never. In the sense I've never received an important insight from them. I've talked interesting subjects with them and sometimes they hold up, but I've never had an "aha" moment by talking to them, I've never been illuminated by them. To be fair, with men has been almost the same. I'm happy with playing Chopin for me, or debating about deep subjects in my mind. And I'll be happy to share all this "interesting" things with other people and maybe been considered attractive to women with all this, but I realize is not gonna happen. Not gonna happen until I meet a female equivalent of myself, and who knows what are the odds on that.

I have had several illuminating, interesting conversations with women. That's what draws me to the ones that have made such an impression on me, that they are different from the crowd. They think about things differently, they talk differently. But I don't consider them female versions of myself, and I don't think there is any female version of myself. I think that no matter what, I'll have to try and fit myself around someone. It will take effort. I just think anything is better than giving up or saying that it's all luck and I can't do anything to help myself. I spent my whole life up to this point saying that it was all luck and that I just didn't have enough luck so there was nothing I could do, but I didn't like the results that got me. I was miserable and felt powerless, but I don't want to go on like that anymore. I'm determined to beat this situation.

So ask yourself too: Are they trying their best to be interesting for me? Are women concerned about picking up a guitar or whatever to become a richer human being to being around? To they care about what men may want to find in them? To bring something meaningful to the table?

I don't think they are doing these things thinking that it will make them more desirable to guys. I think, like you and me, they just do things they are interested in, and the side effect of that is that they become more exceptional people.

 

[Xpendable]

I meant that if you act all tense around them and not like how you would when you aren't feeling self-conscious then they will pick up on it and not like it.

Self-conscious or not, I'm just in another frequency. They get nothing from me. Are women so petty creatures that at the first sign of awkwardness they will bury you completely? Or is something that they do unconsciously, proving that it has evolutionary roots?

---

I don't think we HAVE to be concerned all the time with entertaining others, and I'm definitely not promoting the idea that anyone should feel inadequate.

Not all the time, but exclusively to be accepted.

But, I'm just saying that I feel this is part of my own problem. I feel that one of the reasons I don't do so well with women is because I don't have a compelling enough personality, and I believe I could fix that at least somewhat by doing more.

Having a compelling personality to attract someone is like saying you need talent to be a pop artist. It may help but we know is not necessary. And women will let slide bland personalities for a number of random reasons.

I look at other men and try to emulate their success, and I've noticed two main ways that men attract women. One is to be a hyper-masculine, rebellious, cocky "cool" guy. But I don't have the experience or background to act that way, and I also just don't like it.

That's because it can't be learned, is inherent in them.

That leaves the other way, which is to be interesting and engaging by cultivating interests. I feel like this way suits who I want to be more, and it's something I want to do for myself anyway.

You want to do it for yourself to get validation from others. We all see personal gain through some level of recognition. Why would the last men on earth want to become interesting himself? To whom? Why would the last men on earth want to be rich? Rich over whom? Interesting over whom?

Don't get me wrong, all the stuff I want to do I wanted to do for me too. These were all things I thought about and wanted to do before meeting any girls I've wanted to date. I just feel that in addition to making me more interesting to myself, they'd also help me have more to offer conversationally. It would give me a purpose, it would give me knowledge, it would make me more compelling.

And that's the catch. I consciously did it for myself, but deep down I wanted validation too; I just didn't knew it. Trust me, while you more cultivate yourself, the more alone you will be. You're refining gold to be used as a paperweight. You have too much faith in other people and what are they willing to do to keep up with you. You can choose: Ignorance and happiness or knowledge and loneliness. Or actually, you can't choose; I certainly didn't.

I have had several illuminating, interesting conversations with women. That's what draws me to the ones that have made such an impression on me, that they are different from the crowd.

Good for you, you individual who lives many miles away in a different environment than me. Can I ask what those revelations were?

They think about things differently, they talk differently. But I don't consider them female versions of myself, and I don't think there is any female version of myself.

Thinking differently isn't going to give two right answers to the same problems. I realized they just think what is best for them, independent of factual truth. And certainly don't speak the same they think.

I think that no matter what, I'll have to try and fit myself around someone. It will take effort. I just think anything is better than giving up or saying that it's all luck and I can't do anything to help myself.

You know what's worse than giving up?

Eternal disappointment. Like Edison and the lightbulb, trying more than 1000 times. Only that he had better probabilities with that that we have with finding someone who's worth it. And it's all luck. Sorry. My sister knew her husband because he meet our uncle in a bar fight. My mom was about to marry another men but he went away when the 1973 coup occurred in my country. You need to accept that every little thing that happens happen over billions other different outcomes of infinitesimal probabilities. The universe is a cold place for hope.

I spent my whole life up to this point saying that it was all luck and that I just didn't have enough luck so there was nothing I could do, but I didn't like the results that got me. I was miserable and felt powerless, but I don't want to go on like that anymore. I'm determined to beat this situation.

Take into account you're doing it for an individual who, 99% chance, would be sub-par to what you want to become.

I don't think they are doing these things thinking that it will make them more desirable to guys.

They aren't because we, men, have settle an extremely low bar.

I think, like you and me, they just do things they are interested in, and the side effect of that is that they become more exceptional people.

The difference is that if they don't do those things men will like them anyway.

 

[Paraiyar]

Self-conscious or not, I'm just in another frequency. They get nothing from me. Are women so petty creatures that at the first sign of awkwardness they will bury you completely? Or is something that they do unconsciously, proving that it has evolutionary roots?

Well I wouldn't call it pettiness and I'm sure many of them can get past a first impression of awkwardness. I just think it's hard to good around that for a lot of people and it's understandable. I'm sure women think that many of the things men look for in the opposite sex are often petty and unfair as well.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

You know, I can only think of one time where I have really felt that way.

When I was younger, I had a really good male friend. We lived in a town where everyone was Catholic, minus our two families. And with him being Native, he was pretty isolated from not being accepted. He was the first person I ever approached and asked to hang out with me. And we hung out every day after school. Sometimes after supper, too.

Anyway, I got myself into some personal troubles. And I went away for 2 weeks to summer camp, to try to get a break from life. When I came back, my parents decided that we were moving. When I went to say goodbye to him, I found out that he had moved as well. He didn't use a computer at the age of 18, and I haven't had any luck finding him online.

His friendship helped me through a lot of stuff.

I think that some girls think I am interesting at first, but I run into problems later because I don't do much, and because I don't do much, I don't have much to talk about. I don't have much of an identity. I'm not working right now and spend a lot of time surfing the Internet trying to solve my problems or just killing time. I spend a lot of time thinking about the various problems I have with things, which doesn't give me much to talk to girls or anyone about really, since talking about problems with people you want to date seems to make them go cold. In addition to working, I feel like I should be doing more hobbies and even reading more, pursuing some kind of skill. I feel the progress makes people interesting, when they gain new knowledge, abilities, or ideas.

I think self-doubt is a big problem of mine. I doubt that I'll get good at anything or that I'll find anything interesting to read and think about or that even if I do get good at things and even if I have something neat to talk about, that women just won't like me anyway because I'm just not good enough. This fear of not being good enough no matter what, is a big part of why I never feel like doing anything.

I feel like you just described me in two paragraphs. I, myself, haven't really felt like someone with an identity. I currently don't have much desire to learn new things, but even when I did...I felt completely lost at finding something I am good at. I have a hard time getting excited about something.

And I believe the more I have tried to change to please other people, I have lost even more connection to myself. I have an online presence, but I can't talk about my online life with people I face in real life daily. It really feels like two different worlds for me.

I guess I can say that I have had a lot of luck when it comes to finding someone I would like to be with. But the problem is that somewhere along the line, I lose the connection with them. In previous relationships, I have spent a lot of time helping them rebuild their own selves. Giving them confidence. And then they see that I am still fragile. That I am not as strong as they are. And they find somewhere better to be. I know that my self doubt has become a huge problem. Which is why I have stepped out of looking altogether for the time being.

 

[Xpendable]

Self-conscious or not, I'm just in another frequency. They get nothing from me. Are women so petty creatures that at the first sign of awkwardness they will bury you completely? Or is something that they do unconsciously, proving that it has evolutionary roots?

Well I wouldn't call it pettiness and I'm sure many of them can get past a first impression of awkwardness. I just think it's hard to good around that for a lot of people and it's understandable. I'm sure women think that many of the things men look for in the opposite sex are often petty and unfair as well.

I see, you're going with the "we're as bad as them" argument?

What are the petty an unfair things?

For me is to have a normal emotional state and somewhat care for their bodies. Is that's to extreme?

 

[TheRealCallie]

Self-conscious or not, I'm just in another frequency. They get nothing from me. Are women so petty creatures that at the first sign of awkwardness they will bury you completely? Or is something that they do unconsciously, proving that it has evolutionary roots?

Well I wouldn't call it pettiness and I'm sure many of them can get past a first impression of awkwardness. I just think it's hard to good around that for a lot of people and it's understandable. I'm sure women think that many of the things men look for in the opposite sex are often petty and unfair as well.

I see, you're going with the "we're as bad as them" argument?

Do you honestly think that women don't complain and get upset about the same damn things men do?

I'm not good enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm too smart, I'm too tall, I'm too short, I'm not slutty enough, I'm not fun enough. Those aren't just men things, women have the same issues.

 

[ardour]

Well I wouldn't call it pettiness and I'm sure many of them can get past a first impression of awkwardness. I just think it's hard to good around that for a lot of people and it's understandable. I'm sure women think that many of the things men look for in the opposite sex are often petty and unfair as well.

It's the double standard. Why would it be so hard to get past some initial awkwardness?

Self-conscious or not, I'm just in another frequency. They get nothing from me. Are women so petty creatures that at the first sign of awkwardness they will bury you completely? Or is something that they do unconsciously, proving that it has evolutionary roots?

It does seem petty and cruel to dismiss someone just like that over a misplaced smile, an awkward silence etc.

A couple of other possibilities. They’re insecure and interpret awkwardness as a lack of interest or an insult. The other is awkwardness ruins a scripted fantasy in their minds.

I think you’re doing yourself a disservice by continuing to dwell on it though.

 

[Xpendable]

Do you honestly think that women don't complain and get upset about the same damn things men do?

I'm not good enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm too smart, I'm too tall, I'm too short, I'm not slutty enough, I'm not fun enough. Those aren't just men things, women have the same issues.

Women renounce to follow all that. They still find a man.

---

I think you’re doing yourself a disservice by continuing to dwell on it though.

Who's dwelling?

 

[Paraiyar]

I see, you're going with the "we're as bad as them" argument?

What are the petty an unfair things?

For me is to have a normal emotional state and somewhat care for their bodies. Is that's to extreme?

Maybe for you but there are plenty of men who will dismiss girls based on physical appearances, I won't lie, I need to feel a certain physical attraction towards a girl otherwise my brain just doesn't see her as a potential partner. No proud of it but that is how it is. The fact that you don't have this doesn't change the fact that a lot of us do, just like me pointing out that some women are fine with shy men doesn't change the fact that many aren't attracted to that. So yes, you could say that my argument is that we aren't any better than them in this regard and at this stage I'm sticking with that view.

It's the double standard. Why would it be so hard to get past some initial awkwardness?

I tend to think talking about 'double standards' in the realm of attraction to the opposite sex is kind of problematic because it assumes that men and women look for the same things in each other which I don't believe is true at all.

And what if you're consistently awkward? If you consistently display a trait that the majority of the opposite sex find unattractive then you can't be that surprised that it's harder for you to find a partner. I know that there are some traits that would make me back off a woman in a nano second.

 

[ardour]

I tend to think talking about 'double standards' in the realm of attraction to the opposite sex is kind of problematic because it assumes that men and women look for the same things in each other which I don't believe is true at all.

And what if you're consistently awkward? If you consistently display a trait that the majority of the opposite sex find unattractive then you can't be that surprised that it's harder for you to find a partner. I know that there are some traits that would make me back off a woman in a nano second.

Yeah except only one gender is judged for it. Assessing women by difficult to attain beauty standards is superficial, but then so is dismissing someone as a worthless bore after only a few seconds.

 

[Sci-Fi]

Do you honestly think that women don't complain and get upset about the same damn things men do?

I'm not good enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm too smart, I'm too tall, I'm too short, I'm not slutty enough, I'm not fun enough. Those aren't just men things, women have the same issues.

I'm sorry when did you become an expert on women? You can't speak for them and that sure is a from accurate statement. That kind of attitude and talk isn't permitted here and you've been warned before. Knock it off, last warning.

 

[Xpendable]

You quoted wrong. Callie spoke for all women too, does she gets a warnig?






PD: Sorry OP for making this thread to be closed.

 

[VanillaCreme]

You quoted wrong. Callie spoke for all women too, does she gets a warnig?






PD: Sorry OP for making this thread to be closed.

No, she doesn't. That was for you. So follow the advice, yeah?

 

[Xpendable]

"Advice"

Now I understand why there's no written rules in here. Ok, I'm not getting anything new anyway.


PD: If any member wants to discuss with me better PM me.

 

[ardour]

I found this old thread on the topic awkwardness. Needless to say it's depressing reading for anyone with social anxiety, particularly the "go get therapy" advice.