Something that hasn't happened for awhile

[Batman55]

And to be honest I don't give a fresia what people think. It's me who counts, what I want is most important.

True. You don't need to pay attention to this "low status" stuff.

This is the side of Triple Bogey I want to see more of, honestly Sticking up for yourself and discarding judgments that don't affect your individuality.

 

[TheSkaFish]

And to be honest I don't give a fresia what people think. It's me who counts, what I want is most important.

You are absolutely right to say that it is you who counts and if you are happy doing what you are doing, then that is all that truly matters. You may well be happier than lots of people in other jobs and for that, I salute you. All I am saying is that unfortunately, other people have their own negative views which might be the source of some of this trouble you described.

True. You don't need to pay attention to this "low status" stuff.

This is the side of Triple Bogey I want to see more of, honestly Sticking up for yourself and discarding judgments that don't affect your individuality.

I was neither picking on nor judging TB. I was just explaining that the job might have something to do with some of the grief that people give him, since he said he was getting abused at work, and the other posts regarding women seem to line up with this. I think they are two manifestations of the same root issue.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I was neither picking on nor judging TB. I was just explaining that the job might have something to do with some of the grief that people give him, since he said he was getting abused at work, and the other posts regarding women seem to line up with this. I think they are two manifestations of the same root issue.

The job likely has nothing to do with it. In this day and age, it's great to have ANY job, as there are many problems in the job market and availability of jobs.
He HAS a job, he pays his bills, that's what matters. Not how much his pay is or how much money he has. A job is a job and it's a great thing, no matter whether you work on Wall Street, in retail or as a garbage man.

 

[Bob Arctor]

I normally don't do this, but these posts were really bothering me. From what I can see there's a whole lot of projection going on here on TheSkaFish's end.

TL;DR, When giving advice don't try to make your own insecurities someone else's problem.

Case in point:

...People who work in retail, or just people who don't get paid a lot in general, simply aren't given any respect.

Really? You're just going to drop that as a blanket statement? That's just a fact: retail work = no respect from anyone at all? Forget the millions of people who pay their bills and raise families through retail work in the US alone (roughly 10% of the American labor force), they don't get respect because retail.

...It is unfortunately socially acceptable to joke about or make fun of people who work in retail or fast food or things like that, or to treat such people badly.

If you find yourself in the kind of social circles where it's acceptable to treat people this way because of how they make a living, I honestly pity you and suggest looking for some more mature friends if you find this behavior so unfortunate.

And the low paycheck and mindless work, combined with how people look down on you, really hurts one's confidence. I know because that's how I felt when I was in those jobs...

Yes, "people" will look down on retail workers. You know this because you felt looked down on. Did you ever stop to think that the person looking down on you the most (or the person who's opinion counted the most) was you?

...The thing is, you may not see retail as beneath you. Which, again, is fine. But a lot of people in society see retail people as beneath them, and think it's ok to bully them because of it. It's absolutely wrong of them to act that way, but that is how most people work, unfortunately. Also, a lot of women tend to look down on people who work in retail as well, as far as dating goes. It isn't mature and it isn't nice, but that's how a lot of people are...

All these people you keep mentioning, who are they and why does their opinion matter so much to you? Why should their opinion matter to TB? As for the part about women, that's just utter nonsense. Some of the most accomplished lady's men I ever saw worked in some form of retail. They didn't go around showboating their status, they were just able to project an air of confidence. A good friend of mine found the girl he's going to marry (a gorgeous girl I might add and I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a little jealous) while working as a cashier with literally no other career aspirations in mind. He's not even good looking!

I'll even offer myself as a counterexample. I've worked as an electrician for many years now and have had minimal success in the dating game. I earn high wages (the region I work in has one of the highest standard journeyman rates in the world), and people seem to respect me when I tell them the kind of work I do.

Nevertheless, in the past few years I've seen nothing but a string of rejections as far as dating goes. The reason behind this, if you ask me, is that it's simply true what most of us were taught as children: it's what's on the inside that counts. I've been dealing with self-esteem and depression issues as far back as I can remember. From what I've seen women can smell insecurity on a man, regardless of the reasons the man tells himself he's insecure. Maybe a few women here and there were mildly impressed by my occupation, but that was where the admiration began and ended.

...retail is generally low-paying and seen as low-status. Again, it's crummy, but that's how a lot of people think, I'm afraid...

Yes, "seen as low status" by you, that's how you think. Stop trying to pass the buck to some generalized mass of the population. Sure, those people are out there, I'm not denying that, but from these posts it's pretty clear to me that you're one of them.

That's another reason why I don't want to go back to it. Because I don't want to be treated that way. I'd be very frustrated and either become very angry, or it would just crush me and I'd feel very beaten inside.

Your opinions on this matter are never more clear than when you express how frustrated and beaten down a retail position would make you feel. FYI: You are not TB, and he's expressed that he's fine with what he does for a living multiple times.

...All I am saying is that unfortunately, other people have their own negative views which might be the source of some of this trouble you described.

Again, "other people." Take some responsibility for your world views.

To close, one of my favourite movie moments that I think encapsulates what's been going on in this thread.
[youtube]qbBAqaf6cIg[/youtube]

 

[TheSkaFish]

The job likely has nothing to do with it. In this day and age, it's great to have ANY job, as there are many problems in the job market and availability of jobs.
He HAS a job, he pays his bills, that's what matters. Not how much his pay is or how much money he has. A job is a job and it's a great thing, no matter whether you work on Wall Street, in retail or as a garbage man.

Not everybody thinks so. Go back to the first post of this thread, read about the kind of abuse he received at work, and ask yourself if you've ever heard people getting treated that poorly by customers in any other job. I have not. Yet I have seen that in a retail setting, this is common.

No, I wasn't picking on Bogey. I was telling him that for his own good, maybe he should do something else and as a result, maybe he would be treated better.

 

[TheRealCallie]

The job likely has nothing to do with it. In this day and age, it's great to have ANY job, as there are many problems in the job market and availability of jobs.
He HAS a job, he pays his bills, that's what matters. Not how much his pay is or how much money he has. A job is a job and it's a great thing, no matter whether you work on Wall Street, in retail or as a garbage man.

Not everybody thinks so. Go back to the first post of this thread, read about the kind of abuse he received at work, and ask yourself if you've ever heard people getting treated that poorly by customers in any other job. I have not. Yet I have seen that in a retail setting, this is common.

No, I wasn't picking on Bogey. I was telling him that for his own good, maybe he should do something else and as a result, maybe he would be treated better.

People get abused EVERYWHERE. It doesn't matter what type of job you have. I've seen DOCTORS being abused before. Open your eyes and stop putting your own personal feelings of entitlement onto everyone else as a fact, because it's not a fact, it's your OPINION.

 

[TheSkaFish]

People get abused EVERYWHERE. It doesn't matter what type of job you have. I've seen DOCTORS being abused before. Open your eyes and stop putting your own personal feelings of entitlement onto everyone else as a fact, because it's not a fact, it's your OPINION.

LIKE I WAS SAYING, this treatment that Bogey described is the result of a common stereotype. Just like the common racist or sexist stereotypes that also result in people being treated poorly. Is it right? No. Does it happen? Yes. The difference is, if you change your job, it gives people one less reason to treat you poorly. That's what I was trying to tell him. Do something else, get rid of the stereotype, get treated better. That's all. See what you want to see. I was trying to explain to TB that it's all well and good not to care what others think and to be happy doing what you do, but to be aware that other people think what they think and that this poor treatment could be avoidable.

 

[TheRealCallie]

People get abused EVERYWHERE. It doesn't matter what type of job you have. I've seen DOCTORS being abused before. Open your eyes and stop putting your own personal feelings of entitlement onto everyone else as a fact, because it's not a fact, it's your OPINION.

LIKE I WAS SAYING, this treatment that Bogey described is the result of a common stereotype. Just like the common racist or sexist stereotypes that also result in people being treated poorly. Is it right? No. Does it happen? Yes. The difference is, if you change your job, it gives people one less reason to treat you poorly. That's what I was trying to tell him. Do something else, get rid of the stereotype, get treated better. That's all. See what you want to see. I was trying to explain to TB that it's all well and good not to care what others think and to be happy doing what you do, but to be aware that other people think what they think and that this poor treatment could be avoidable.

No, regardless of where you work, you will have the risk of being treated poorly. Not everyone can afford to be so picky about choosing a job. Sometimes people work because they HAVE to, to pay the bills, because they like what they do. Retail work is NOT some low grade job, that's your OPINION.

 

[TheSkaFish]

TL;DR, When giving advice don't try to make your own insecurities someone else's problem.

Sure, right after you stop putting words in my mouth.

Really? You're just going to drop that as a blanket statement? That's just a fact: retail work = no respect from anyone at all? Forget the millions of people who pay their bills and raise families through retail work in the US alone (roughly 10% of the American labor force), they don't get respect because retail.

Well, for the most part that is what I've observed. Like I just said, the views are due to stereotypes. The stereotype is that if you are in retail, there must be something wrong with you. Hence, the poor treatment, lack of respect, and the feeling that such treatment is socially acceptable. It's just like the racist and sexist stereotypes. Or like how in school, the fact that some types of people got bullied was acceptable.

If you find yourself in the kind of social circles where it's acceptable to treat people this way because of how they make a living, I honestly pity you and suggest looking for some more mature friends if you find this behavior so unfortunate.

That social circle would be American society, and probably all of first-world society.

Yes, "people" will look down on retail workers. You know this because you felt looked down on. Did you ever stop to think that the person looking down on you the most (or the person who's opinion counted the most) was you?

Yes, I know it from personal experience. I also know it from listening to others and just observing society's attitudes. For example, I'm not a racist. But by observing society, I get a sense of what the racist stereotypes are.

All these people you keep mentioning, who are they and why does their opinion matter so much to you? Why should their opinion matter to TB? As for the part about women, that's just utter nonsense. Some of the most accomplished lady's men I ever saw worked in some form of retail. They didn't go around showboating their status, they were just able to project an air of confidence. A good friend of mine found the girl he's going to marry (a gorgeous girl I might add and I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a little jealous) while working as a cashier with literally no other career aspirations in mind. He's not even good looking!

Why does it matter to me? Because I don't want to suffer this disrespect. And it doesn't sound like TB does either. Their opinion matters not because they are right, they're not - but because it was causing tangible, physical problems in TB's life. I can also imagine it hurt his self-esteem to be harassed and mocked. I know it would hurt mine.

As for your friends, I don't know. There are always exceptions to the rule, there are always anomalies.

I'll even offer myself as a counterexample. I've worked as an electrician for many years now and have had minimal success in the dating game. I earn high wages (the region I work in has one of the highest standard journeyman rates in the world), and people seem to respect me when I tell them the kind of work I do.

Nevertheless, in the past few years I've seen nothing but a string of rejections as far as dating goes. The reason behind this, if you ask me, is that it's simply true what most of us were taught as children: it's what's on the inside that counts. I've been dealing with self-esteem and depression issues as far back as I can remember. From what I've seen women can smell insecurity on a man, regardless of the reasons the man tells himself he's insecure. Maybe a few women here and there were mildly impressed by my occupation, but that was where the admiration began and ended.

Maybe people don't understand what you do. If they don't have a clear mental image of it, they don't know if they find it respectable.

What's on the inside CAN count. But it very rarely completely makes up for the outside. It can help offset the outside but that's just not how most people work.

I'm just saying, unfortunately, status can be a very real issue in dating. Do I agree with it? Of course not. I've always had a hard time with status myself, I've never been an insider or an elite. But it's a barrier for a lot of people. Again, we can look at cultural norms to see this.

Yes, "seen as low status" by you, that's how you think. Stop trying to pass the buck to some generalized mass of the population. Sure, those people are out there, I'm not denying that, but from these posts it's pretty clear to me that you're one of them.

Nope, think what you want. Yes, I would have a hard time feeling confidence and respecting MYSELF in such a position, but that's where it ends. I don't care if someone else is in retail or not. However, I acknowledge that it carries a negative connotation with a lot of people which can result in a lack of respect.

Your opinions on this matter are never more clear than when you express how frustrated and beaten down a retail position would make you feel. FYI: You are not TB, and he's expressed that he's fine with what he does for a living multiple times.

Yeah well, he doesn't sound like he is fine with the way he was treated. I was just trying to offer some insight on the problem. I don't like bullies. But it's easier to change your job than it is to change society. That's the point I was trying to get across.

---

No, regardless of where you work, you will have the risk of being treated poorly. Not everyone can afford to be so picky about choosing a job. Someone people work because they HAVE to, to pay the bills, because they like what they do. Retail work is NOT some low grade job, that's your OPINION.

Yes, there is always the risk of being treated poorly. And customer service jobs carry the most risk. But there are more than just customer service jobs in the world, and maybe some of these would result in being treated with more respect and dignity.

 

[Oldyoung]

I agree with both Skafish and Callie.

Yes, there are such a thing as a class hierarchy (sadly). Some positions warrant more respect among the general public than others. Sometimes with some merit, sometimes unfairly.
Yes, whatever position you have, there will be people who can give you crap, and the relations among your coworkers means more than the position itself.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I agree with both Skafish and Callie.

Yes, there are such a thing as a class hierarchy (sadly). Some positions warrant more respect among the general public than others. Sometimes with some merit, sometimes unfairly.

THANK YOU. Finally someone sees that I wasn't being condescending to Bogey, but rather explaining that the problem is the general public's perception. Class hierarchy is real - for what it's worth I'm on the wrong side of it myself. It's not right, but it's real. And it's easier to avoid it by moving up than to fight it.

Yes, whatever position you have, there will be people who can give you crap, and the relations among your coworkers means more than the position itself.

I acknowledge this. Usually in the more higher-ranked jobs in the public's eye, it's the boss that is the abuser instead of a customer.

 

[Aisha]

I agree with both Skafish and Callie.

OY the neutral
Some things don't change

 

[Bob Arctor]

I guess I just don't understand who specifically in the general public is important enough that changing one's line of work would be a priority to garner their respect. In TB's case it sounded more situational than anything else. When he changed neighborhoods the abuse (from mostly youths) subsided. Retail workers aren't subjected to abuse from the general public because they work in retail, they're subjected to said abuse because they deal with the general public. The more random people you deal with, the more ******** you encounter.

I'm Canadian born and lived in Texas for four years, and what I've observed in society (by which I mean at least 50 specific individuals I chose to be friends with irl) is that the majority of people don't look down on, or feel the need to abuse retail workers. As for the socially successful people I've met in retail, I've met enough of them to know that they are not "exceptions to a rule." They exemplify the truth about human nature which is that anyone who is ever going to have any meaning in your life will not give a honeysuckle about your paycheque. As for me, I wouldn't want to touch potential friends or girlfriends with a ten foot pole if I knew they were classist.

The only reason I could ever see for worrying about class hierarchy is if you were trying to work your way up the ladder in a business where that sort of thing actually mattered. Anyway, you clearly see things differently SkaFish, so I agree to disagree.

As for TB, I'm just glad things are better for you now, and I'm glad you enjoy doing what pays your bills.

 

[Triple Bogey]

I share your city, TB. almost everyday I think the U should be an E

Depends where you live. I've never lived anywhere else so I can't compare it to somewhere else.

---

The job likely has nothing to do with it. In this day and age, it's great to have ANY job, as there are many problems in the job market and availability of jobs.
He HAS a job, he pays his bills, that's what matters. Not how much his pay is or how much money he has. A job is a job and it's a great thing, no matter whether you work on Wall Street, in retail or as a garbage man.

Not everybody thinks so. Go back to the first post of this thread, read about the kind of abuse he received at work, and ask yourself if you've ever heard people getting treated that poorly by customers in any other job. I have not. Yet I have seen that in a retail setting, this is common.

No, I wasn't picking on Bogey. I was telling him that for his own good, maybe he should do something else and as a result, maybe he would be treated better.

People get abused EVERYWHERE. It doesn't matter what type of job you have. I've seen DOCTORS being abused before. Open your eyes and stop putting your own personal feelings of entitlement onto everyone else as a fact, because it's not a fact, it's your OPINION.

Any job involving the public could involve abuse of some kind.

 

[Batman55]

I'm Canadian born and lived in Texas for four years, and what I've observed in society (by which I mean at least 50 specific individuals I chose to be friends with irl) is that the majority of people don't look down on, or feel the need to abuse retail workers. As for the socially successful people I've met in retail, I've met enough of them to know that they are not "exceptions to a rule." They exemplify the truth about human nature which is that anyone who is ever going to have any meaning in your life will not give a honeysuckle about your paycheque. As for me, I wouldn't want to touch potential friends or girlfriends with a ten foot pole if I knew they were classist.

Absolutely! Now it's time for me to print this out and tape it to the wall. You've echoed my sentiments exactly.

As for what my inner cynic wants to say: maybe TB's problems with women wouldn't be so bad--he'd get more dates--if he were to find a better, higher-paying job.

But that's not what *I* would say, anymore. That's the voice of an entity I'm trying to fight against, each and every day. Cynicism breeds apathy; apathy prevents progress.

 

[ardour]

For what it's worth, being an average office monkey isn't particularly 'high status' either. Sure I sit at a computer, sure there's the appearance that it *might* involve applying oneself mentally on some important task.

Most of the time it doesn't. The majority of the time it's a set of repetitious tasks anyone could manage. Most people realize that, so unless Triple Bogey wants to become a professional or start a business he's won't be gaining much status by moving out of retail.

 

[Triple Bogey]

For what it's worth, being an average office monkey isn't particularly 'high status' either. Sure I sit at a computer, sure there's the appearance that it *might* involve applying oneself mentally on some important task.

Most of the time it doesn't. The majority of the time it's a set of repetitious tasks anyone could manage. Most people realize that, so unless Triple Bogey wants to become a professional or start a business he's won't be gaining much status by moving out of retail.

Funny story. I used to work with this woman. I worked maybe 8 years with her. I always found her attractive. I never asked her out because it was obvious she didn't like me back. (I did sort of ask in a round about way but she wouldn't go anywhere with me outside of work even the gym)

We were fairly friendly though. She was always single as well. After she left my work she apparently met this fellow. That was 2 years ago and they are still together. He is unemployed and lives with his Mother. I'm not knocking that, he may be a wonderful person. But people on other forums have said because I live with my Dad it would put women off me. And now on here some people are saying working in retail doesn't do me any favours.

So I think things like that don't really matter. Not really.

 

[Batman55]

For what it's worth, being an average office monkey isn't particularly 'high status' either. Sure I sit at a computer, sure there's the appearance that it *might* involve applying oneself mentally on some important task.

Most of the time it doesn't. The majority of the time it's a set of repetitious tasks anyone could manage. Most people realize that, so unless Triple Bogey wants to become a professional or start a business he's won't be gaining much status by moving out of retail.

Wow, very inspiring! :club:

 

[ardour]

Wow, very inspiring! :club:

Ha, reading back on that, yeah, quite negative. Just saying that getting a 'better' job in an office isn't necessarily going to impress anyone, although doing something a little less usual might. (Any hobbies of yours that could make you a living TB?)

And if he's genuinely happy where he is, it's a moot point. There might be something humiliating about having to remain polite to people who are often rude, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

 

[Triple Bogey]

Wow, very inspiring! :club:

Ha, reading back on that, yeah, quite negative. Just saying that getting a 'better' job in an office isn't necessarily going to impress anyone, although doing something a little less usual might. (Any hobbies of yours that could make you a living TB?)

And if he's genuinely happy where he is, it's a moot point. There might be something humiliating about having to remain polite to people who are often rude, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Being good at golf doesn't impress women much.