banning policy

[lifestream]

Then who has the authority to make the call? Bjarne has been absent for a long time now. It would seem that the choice is yours (and by 'you', I mean all of the mods) by default. It's all well and good to claim that you just work here, but ALL is essentially run at your discretion and it is your choice as to whether or not basic forum policy should be altered or amended. If you're unwilling to make the decision, that's a different story altogether, but it rings a little hollow to say that you're unable to do so. Choosing not to make a decision is still making a decision.

 

[SofiasMami]

Forgive me, but that seems like a somewhat arbitrary way of doing things. The thing about evidence is that it can be used to spin all kinds of bias and misinterpretations. A concrete set of rules which, if broken, are punishable by warnings or bans makes the issue far less vulnerable to human error.

Ah, you may be right. But, then you get people who, when they see fit, argue over how the rules are stupid and senseless to them. What would be your reply to that? Because we get both sides. "That's not in the rules. There are no rules. Where is that in the rules?" As well as, "Well, that rule is stupid, and it shouldn't be there because it's stupid."

Have there been a lot of members who've successfully used that argument? Most of the members I 've encountered over the past 5+ years are not arguers. I don't think the forum's rules of conduct or lack thereof should be driven by the arguers.

It doesn't make sense to throw the baby out with the bath water.

-Teresa

 

[VanillaCreme]

Then who has the authority to make the call? Bjarne has been absent for a long time now. It would seem that the choice is yours (and by 'you', I mean all of the mods) by default. It's all well and good to claim that you just work here, but ALL is essentially run at your discretion and it is your choice as to whether or not basic forum policy should be altered or amended. If you're unwilling to make the decision, that's a different story altogether, but it rings a little hollow to say that you're unable to do so. Choosing not to make a decision is still making a decision.

Is that not the job or duty of the forum moderators themselves? To have that authority to make those calls? Whether some members agree with them is completely irrelevant to the fact that that's what moderators on forums or chat rooms are for. This all leads back to not wanting to listen to what's being said. Because, written rules or not, you still get people who want to argue the things they're told, even if they can be pointed back to a rules list.

Have there been a lot of members who've successfully used that argument? Most of the members I 've encountered over the past 5+ years are not arguers.

Not really. Because either way, they just want what they want. You must not pay attention to who wants to argue that though.

 

[lifestream]

If people complain about a rule being unjust, then that's what the appeals process is for. Rules can and do work as long as we abide by them and if we don't, then that's what punitive measures are for. I'm sorry, but I think your argument that if rules were instituted then people would rail against them and work to subvert them is circular logic. People have attempted to evade justice since Hammurabi's Code and still civilisation is based on a set of laws.

 

[VanillaCreme]

There are rules. No where did I argue or say there weren't any. Just because they're not written down in a neat list doesn't mean they aren't to be implemented. In fact, that's what some folks do want to argue over, and I really don't know why. No one should have to be told not to do something that's obviously wrong in order to just not do it. If there's ever any question, then by all means, ask away. Complaints are looked into as well. They're not ignored. Just because they're not handled in the way that the complainer wants doesn't mean they weren't dealt with.

 

[lifestream]

It's not about telling people what to do or think, it's about having a tangible set of rules that are enforced and abided by. If they're not available so that everyone can see them, then I'm afraid things like right or wrong become rather vague and subject to revision. A visible list of forum rules makes eminent sense to me, and clearly to other people too. This is a community, not a Kafka novel.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Right, and it doesn't matter if they are tangible or not. You'll still get people saying things and wanting to complain or argue those tangible rules. So whether they're listed or not, it doesn't matter. We get both sides of the fence with it.

 

[SofiasMami]

I'm all for transparency. If there are rules being applied by the moderators (other than no spamming, porn, etc) why not be open with those? What we call common sense is not always that common.
I've been gravitating to other public forums that are transparent and consistent with handling all members and I would love to see that here as well. Posting a few rules of conduct is not too much to ask for.

-Teresa

 

[lifestream]

But it does matter. If people can't see the rules, then how are they supposed to know they exist? There are people from many different cultures on ALL. Some where the rules of socialisation are quite different from the English-speaking world. How would you advise them to behave on ALL?

 

[VanillaCreme]

But it does matter. If people can't see the rules, then how are they supposed to know they exist? There are people from many different cultures on ALL. Some where the rules of socialisation are quite different from the English-speaking world. How would you advise them to behave on ALL?

Because they're told things when something happens. Like I said, with rules not even out there for us to follow, we apply them across the board once they've been established. I'll grant you the option of maybe it would help some, but what about those who say, "Those rules are dumb," and want to argue anyway. How would you go about resonding to that? Because that is why I say - at least for those who would argue anyway - that it doesn't really matter on the moderating side. Once again, damned if we do, damned it we don't.

 

[lifestream]

If I were in your position and faced the situation you described, I would advise the complainer that the rules exist for a reason and that, if they're unwilling to abide by them, perhaps ALL is not the right place for them. Nobody is claiming it would be a smooth transition for everyone, but as Teresa pointed out, a little transparency in the system of governance here on ALL wouldn't hurt and would give a lot of people some peace of mind.

 

[TheSkaFish]

No one should have to be told not to do something that's obviously wrong in order to just not do it.

But that's the issue though. Sometimes that is exactly what is necessary.

 

[VanillaCreme]

If I were in your position and faced the situation you described, I would advise the complainer that the rules exist for a reason and that, if they're unwilling to abide by them, perhaps ALL is not the right place for them.

That's nice that you (or anyone) would think that would be sufficient enough. To just tell them, "If you don't agree, then perhaps this is not the place for you," doesn't typically work because then we get insults thrown at us about being incompetent and about them wanting to leave because the forum is not a fair place because the rules weren't bent for them or because they just don't want to listen to what's being said to them.

I completely understand what you've been saying though. It's not that I disagree completely. It's the fact that no matter what, people will still complain, somewhere along the line. And telling those people, "the rules are here for a reason," doesn't always get that message across.

 

[kamya]

Oh the modsplaining. I can't take this oppression! I need to get to my safe space to visit Oscar and Fairbanks.

The mods have decided not to do it doods. For whatever reason, its what they think is the best. Hopefully for different reasons than I'm seeing in this thread so far. A more logically sound reason I hope. Until there is a completely different group of mods or the forum dies there probably wont be any changes.

Even 4chan has a list of rules at the top of their page. Though it's also mostly anonymous so there's no chance of favoritism.

 

[lifestream]

Would you be willing to at least give it due consideration? I personally think the pros far outweigh the cons. I agree that there will always be dissenting voices no matter what you do, but I think it's evident from this thread that there is a lot of confusion around this topic. Besides, if it doesn't work, it can always change back.

 

[kamya]

They have considered it and decided not to mayn. It's probably not even an issue for most members. There are only a few of us that it seems to bother.

 

[TheRealCallie]

One would think that the forum rules aren't all that far off from the chat room rules, which are clearly posted.

However, that said, it hasn't really done much good, because some of those who have been punished for breaking the rules, complain about the rules being unfair or whatever else they want to say to try to get out of the punishment. So really, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[ladyforsaken]

Well, there are a lot of things that has been said by various members in this thread that I agree with, from all sides really.

I guess I should just mention what I think since this has been touched on so many times before but before I could say anything the threads always get closed. I believe people tend to get quite sensitive and bitter about this particular topic, whether they have been through a particular moderation by the mods or not. And from what I see, these threads get closed as soon as someone starts insulting the mods for whatever their discontentment about the forum might be.

I don't think it's right to bash the mods here as individuals on how the forum is run rather the system set in place should be looked at. I always believe that these things can be discussed in a civil manner so I hope nobody tries to start putting anyone down for the sake of not getting another thread worth of discussion closed.

It might seem like a pointless thing to do to put out specific rules for the forum because it should be well understood as most of us are adults and can read and understand basic English, my experience in teaching teenagers and interacting with their parents made me realise that no, we cannot expect people of any age, to comprehend certain things unless you clearly and specifically state them and there is nothing wrong with that either.

As much as I respect, understand and deeply appreciate the efforts that has been made by the mods to keep the forum a safe place, I, too feel that it can be a little lopsided at times and as someone who really cares a lot about the well-being of the forum, it gets frustrating too but what can I do about it? That said, I do realise that there are reasons behind what our moderators do or actions they take on the forum but I wondered, if many people are voicing out their doubts or even just questioning the effectiveness of the moderation (some of these people being the reasonable voices around), shouldn't their opinions be heard and shouldn't we all (members and moderators) work towards creating a better forum environment? That might mean revising certain rules and regulations or moderation system, I suppose.

The type of people who come on the forum won't ever change and nobody is gonna be perfect at keeping the forum a safe and conducive place to be on and not everyone can be pleased with regard to anything really. We can only try to do our best to help each other in keeping this place pleasant. I've just known too many people leaving because of certain unfair treatments or biasness seen among members (which may not necessarily mean this was how the mods had intended things to be). I'm sure there's a middle ground we call can come to terms with? I would hope so.

Also, there have been no changes to the current way of moderation for so long and it seems like a lot of people are longing for development or change just to see if the board will experience improvements in areas they feel could be better, in my observation. There will always be those who take umbrage with any rules or system of governance. At the same time, the idea of change could hold promise for the board.

Just saying. Nothing against anyone!

 

[Sun35]

Well, there are a lot of things that has been said by various members in this thread that I agree with, from all sides really.

I guess I should just mention what I think since this has been touched on so many times before but before I could say anything the threads always get closed. I believe people tend to get quite sensitive and bitter about this particular topic, whether they have been through a particular moderation by the mods or not. And from what I see, these threads get closed as soon as someone starts insulting the mods for whatever their discontentment about the forum might be.

I don't think it's right to bash the mods here as individuals on how the forum is run rather the system set in place should be looked at. I always believe that these things can be discussed in a civil manner so I hope nobody tries to start putting anyone down for the sake of not getting another thread worth of discussion closed.

It might seem like a pointless thing to do to put out specific rules for the forum because it should be well understood as most of us are adults and can read and understand basic English, my experience in teaching teenagers and interacting with their parents made me realise that no, we cannot expect people of any age, to comprehend certain things unless you clearly and specifically state them and there is nothing wrong with that either.

As much as I respect, understand and deeply appreciate the efforts that has been made by the mods to keep the forum a safe place, I, too feel that it can be a little lopsided at times and as someone who really cares a lot about the well-being of the forum, it gets frustrating too but what can I do about it? That said, I do realise that there are reasons behind what our moderators do or actions they take on the forum but I wondered, if many people are voicing out their doubts or even just questioning the effectiveness of the moderation (some of these people being the reasonable voices around), shouldn't their opinions be heard and shouldn't we all (members and moderators) work towards creating a better forum environment? That might mean revising certain rules and regulations or moderation system, I suppose.

The type of people who come on the forum won't ever change and nobody is gonna be perfect at keeping the forum a safe and conducive place to be on and not everyone can be pleased with regard to anything really. We can only try to do our best to help each other in keeping this place pleasant. I've just known too many people leaving because of certain unfair treatments or biasness seen among members (which may not necessarily mean this was how the mods had intended things to be). I'm sure there's a middle ground we call can come to terms with? I would hope so.

Also, there have been no changes to the current way of moderation for so long and it seems like a lot of people are longing for development or change just to see if the board will experience improvements in areas they feel could be better, in my observation. There will always be those who take umbrage with any rules or system of governance. At the same time, the idea of change could hold promise for the board.

Just saying. Nothing against anyone!

Well said lady, nice way to express yourself.

 

[Yukongirl]

The problem with having rules is that most, unless very specific and detailed, most are open to interpretation. Not to mention that as soon as you have formal guidelines in place, a certain percentage of forum members are going to attempt to push those boundaries. The only 'rules' you really need are 1) post no porn ( plenty of other places for that) and 2) be respectful of one another