Loneliness has to be hereditary!

[58 Voyager]

I explained why I'm here in other posts...feel free to look it up.

My estranged father with whom I communicate via email once or twice a month, lives in Germany with wife #4. She is sickly but hangs on to dear life. He is her caregiver, has been for decades. He has no friends, and they have this weird codependency. He is 80, and no one calls him or visits them, so it's just the two of them. When she is gone, he will be all alone.

His brother, my uncle, also estranged from his own children, is 91. His wife of 50 years died before Christmas, and now he is waiting to join her. All alone in their Florida bungalow.

Their father, my grandfather, lost his wife in 1961 when he was 72 and lived alone for the rest of his life, dying alone at 93 and discovered a few days later.

My uncle had two sons. The older one, in his 60's, died last summer, no friends or family, died alone in his apartment and was discovered a few days later by neighbours, and was unclaimed for weeks until they found a next of kin.

The younger one, also in his 60's, doesn't see his kids, and lives alone by himself no one knows where.

Me? 57, alone, two boys, older one (28) rarely contacts me, younger one (22) comes for dinner once a month, makes small talk about the weather, then leaves after dinner. At least it's something. Like I wrote here, us older men are the trash of family society, thrown out once we are no longer needed: Older men are society outcasts

So...wow....what to look forward to. Yeah, I am engaged and happy, but my past record isn't stellar, and no matter how nice I treat the women in my life, I always lose out to the burly goateed tough guy with the pickup truck and Harley. who mistreats and abuses his partners. It seems one cannot change fate and destiny.

Life sucks. I never signed up for this, and I hate my cold empty bed every night when not with fiancée. Depression? For sure! Drugs? No way, that sh!t made me sicker. This is as good as it gets.

I figure, if life has been a certain way, endless rejection, abandonment, loneliness for over 50 years, tomorrow is NOT the day when things will turn around. It is what it is. Pre-programmed from birth. (My bio here: Biography

Maybe when I too die peacefully in my sleep, all of this will be over.

 

[Sometimes]

Hi 58 Voyager, I'm 54,

Whatever you do, don't let your fear of abandonment get in the way of the happiness you have with your fiancee now. Accept what is being given, allow the moment to be.

My amazing brother in law used to say "don't have your pain in advance". Everyone who lives knows there is loss, and pain. Of course there will be. Try not to have tomorrow's pain right now, before it even gets here. Time enough when it gets here. And it may not be how/what you think it will be now.

 

[Despicable Me]

I don't think it's 'hereditary', since that implies that it's written in our genes. I think it's pretty obvious, from reading your life story that you posted, that these things are mostly a result of the environment. Your family, being emotionally abusive, explains why people like your father have few contacts. I'd guess your uncle and your grandfather were also somewhat emotionally abusive, as well. Would I be right there?

And I'm not going to say your position is any similar, but I will also point out that you state you're engaged and "happy" but then pessimistically deny this happiness by stating you always lose out eventually to some other guy. I know you're speaking of your past and experiences, but your attitude towards this engagement is obviously not spectacular. At the end of your post you then imply that there is no happiness in you at all and that you're basically just waiting to die in your sleep one day.
You seem to try to convey one thing, but not-so-subtly imply the opposite.

You also dismiss your father's wife, who he seems committed to. You seem to dismiss your grandfather as having been lonely, yet what hereditary features could have possibly dictated that his wife would die when he was 72 and that he would not remarry at that age? Can you point out in any of them which hereditary traits caused their loneliness?

Yeah, life is hard. And yeah, you've been through a lot. Nothing will change that. But you can change how you view your own life now, because you still have plenty to look forward to. I'm not trying to be judgemental but the point you're trying to make that basically everything we face in life is because it was "pre-programmed from birth" is just wrong and seems like you're trying to do nothing more than make excuses and shift the blame. What are you really trying to prove here? Because the message you send seems to be the exact opposite that any of this is "pre-programmed from birth".
Yes, our attitudes and personalities are probably defined a lot by our DNA. And yes, our childhood years probably dictate much of how we will learn to socialize and interact and behave and we have no control over these years until we reach adulthood and establish ourselves as real individuals. But no, that doesn't mean our lives, or even our loneliness, is determined by genetics, by any means. If anything it actually puts more scope

And, by the way, at 22/28 it's not that uncommon kids don't keep in touch frequently. They have their own lives to live and often get busy with things. But at least one of them comes regularly once a month. Yeah it sucks they don't visit more, but if you want to go see them how often do you go out and see them? And how often do you talk about more than just the weather or small-talk? Do you? I'm legitimately asking.

You're right that these "armchair psychologists" are wrong to suggest 'everything' in life is a choice. It's certainly not. Anyone with a brain can see and understand that. We have no control over many things in our life, including much of our childhood. You aren't to blame for any of that crap that happened to you when you were little.
However, that isn't to say we have no choices in life at all. Our choices are certainly very important to how we act and who we eventually become. Maybe it doesn't seem like it when fate guides us on a path that is very hard, like the one you have lived, but we do make so many choices every moment. That's why it's important to stop looking in the past and stop letting it haunt us.

Like I asked above, how often do you go and visit your children rather than waiting for them to come visit? Seeing them is seeing them. Does it matter who goes where?
And your engagement. Are you doing it for love and happiness, or are you doing it to reject the loneliness for a while until she eventually leaves you for someone else? Do you truly believe that's going to happen again? If so, why are you engaged? Are you really happy?

If you're not happy with the way things have become what are you doing about it to try and change it? Are you doing anything?

I apologize if this comes across as "patronizing" or "judgmental". People often tell me I sound that way online even when I don't mean it. I just want whats best for you and I'm wondering if you're really asking the right questions, because I can't really accept your current answers myself.

 

[58 Voyager]

@ Despicable Me

I do understand what you are trying to say. Harsh, for sure. Not here to get into a forum argument. You judge and jump to conclusions and offer opinion without having all the facts.

Not everyone who posts on a forum seeks answers. Sometimes we just want to vent.

How do you know I didn't try to connect with the kids for years and years, then just gave up after having the door slammed in my face over and over?

It's obvious you read the bio but you didn't understand the context, and why I have a jaded pessimistic bitter negative outlook on the current relationship.

Sometimes it's OK not to add your $0.02. Your posting history proves the abrasiveness. Be careful how you help someone teetering on the edge, your well meaning words may just be what that person needed to check out.

Nature is a balance. For every person surrounded by warm friends and loving relatives and a great social circle, a lifestyle they were born into, there is one of us, lonely, with no one. I've been on my own for 8 years, and only twice have I had friends come over, the last being 5 years ago. And only zero times have I been invited to a friends house. The same friends who wouldn't hesitate to visit twice a year when I was married.

Yes, I am in a relationship. My ex lied and cheated and betrayed me. So did the 3 other women who came into my life after her. The current fiancée, I'm trying to believe but the emotional scars just wont heal.

And this is the best part. People mock me by saying, "Maybe you choose the wrong women!"

What absolute and utter horsesh!t!!!!

How many women walk around with a neon sign advertising that in X months, they will lie and cheat and betray?

Live my life. Endure the decades of loneliness. Get lied to and betrayed over and over. Have my exact brain chemistry. Get beaten up by countless people as a child. Only then, judge me and offer solutions.

Until then, offer a hug, a smile, a shoulder. But do not dare judge.

 

[Despicable Me]

@ Despicable Me

I do understand what you are trying to say. Harsh, for sure. Not here to get into a forum argument. You judge and jump to conclusions and offer opinion without having all the facts.

No, as I already explained, that's not it. Like I said, I don't mean it that way. I'm not judging you. I'm just asking questions that I think might be relevant, and stating facts about the situation and what was stated. It's up to you how you take these things.
I haven't really jumped to any conclusions at all, in fact. Go ahead and show me even one instance where I jumped to a conclusion.

Not everyone who posts on a forum seeks answers. Sometimes we just want to vent.

And not everyone who reads people's 'venting' are just going to sit by and read while some people have real problems that can be solved.

How do you know I didn't try to connect with the kids for years and years, then just gave up after having the door slammed in my face over and over?

I didn't know. I asked you a question. Did you? You are the one who made this assumption that you think I thought I knew. Is it really that offensive to ask a simple question?

It's obvious you read the bio but you didn't understand the context, and why I have a jaded pessimistic bitter negative outlook on the current relationship.

I understand the context, as that sort of comes with reading the bio, but I'm just trying to explain to you that this is not something people typically bring up if they are actually happy with the relationship.
It's up to you really what you do with that information.

Sometimes it's OK not to add your $0.02. Your posting history proves the abrasiveness. Be careful how you help someone teetering on the edge, your well meaning words may just be what that person needed to check out.

My mannerisms are developed from many years of lacking in any form of social contact and from the fact that I am different than most people.
If what I say is what someone needs to "check out", then so be it. That is true for any form of contact whatsoever, and equally true for those who do not even say a word.
But, despite what some of you might suggest, I actually get quite a few results and I've helped many people over the years. I'm not just going to 'quit' simply because there 'might' be a chance that I could push someone who's already on the edge.

That's like saying policemen/firemen should never attempt to deal with hostile situations because it 'might' end up with someone getting hurt. They should just let them go, right? ....Right? Maybe people can say I'm not "qualified" to help people, but so who is? Does a piece of paper from some school really "qualify" you to help people?
Maybe you don't like my outlook, but I have no reason to simply accept the state society is in now with all of its many problems.

Nature is a balance. For every person surrounded by warm friends and loving relatives and a great social circle, a lifestyle they were born into, there is one of us, lonely, with no one. I've been on my own for 8 years, and only twice have I had friends come over, the last being 5 years ago. And only zero times have I been invited to a friends house. The same friends who wouldn't hesitate to visit twice a year when I was married.

And? You think that somehow proves anything? This isn't a competition to prove who is the loneliest person here.
And even if it was, do you even know anything about me to even compare yourself to? No, you don't.

Yes, I am in a relationship. My ex lied and cheated and betrayed me. So did the 3 other women who came into my life after her. The current fiancée, I'm trying to believe but the emotional scars just wont heal.

I know, but you do have a choice in this and all I was saying is that you can't let those scars dictate how this relationship goes.

And this is the best part. People mock me by saying, "Maybe you choose the wrong women!"

What absolute and utter horsesh!t!!!!

How many women walk around with a neon sign advertising that in X months, they will lie and cheat and betray?

It's not your fault. I'm not sure why anyone would ever suggest it was.

Live my life. Endure the decades of loneliness. Get lied to and betrayed over and over. Have my exact brain chemistry. Get beaten up by countless people as a child. Only then, judge me and offer solutions.

Until then, offer a hug, a smile, a shoulder. But do not dare judge.

-sigh-
People always see me this way. I'm not a 'judgey' person. This is the only way I know being treated. So it's fine, but it's not me.
Keep judging me yourself and thinking you know me better than I know myself.
Why is it that everyone else seems to think they know me better than I know myself? Does everyone else in the world have some sort of psychic powers I don't know about?

If you really knew me you'd know that all I'm doing is caring about you and trying to help, and you're pushing me away. Maybe you didn't ask for my help, but why does someone have to ask for help to receive it?
Does someone trying to commit suicide have to ask for help before anyone will stop them? I would hope not. So where do we draw that line?

And by the way, I can't live your life. No one can. The best anyone can do is understand and sympathize with you in our own ways. So why expect so much? Do you also have a magic book of spells to switch lives with others along with those psychic powers of yours?

So yeah, sorry for caring. I won't anymore. I'll stop. No one on this freaking forum wants me here anyway. It's the same here as it is everywhere else. I know when I'm not wanted.
If all you wanted to do is "vent" and didn't want anyone to provide any advice you should have said so. A big old disclaimer that says "Please don't actually read or care about any of this, I'm just venting." would have been nice.

Anyway, have a nice day. Sorry again for caring.

 

[Sometimes]

...
So yeah, sorry for caring. I won't anymore. I'll stop. No one on this freaking forum wants me here anyway. It's the same here as it is everywhere else. I know when I'm not wanted.
...

That's not true. Don't go.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Voyager, personally, I don't feel it's heredity at all. I think it's a behavior you probably picked up by what you saw and that's how you do things now. There is no really good reason that you can't change your situation, you just have to get out there and find new things to do and new people to meet.
As for your past record, don't think about that. It's in the past, learn the lessons your mistakes showed you and live for today, don't worry about anything else

Not everyone who posts on a forum seeks answers. Sometimes we just want to vent.

And not everyone who reads people's 'venting' are just going to sit by and read while some people have real problems that can be solved.

Whoa, hold up there, dude. Just because you don't deem this a "real" problem, doesn't mean it's not a very big problem for Voyager. You don't get to make the judgment of what is and is not a REAL problem.
Are there worse things in the world? Of course there are, but that doesn't mean that one person problems aren't REAL just because they aren't life or death.

 

[Despicable Me]

That's not true. Don't go.

I'm not leaving yet. I've still got a few things to do here before I go, not that we know each other or anything. Why would you even care if I left?

Whoa, hold up there, dude. Just because you don't deem this a "real" problem, doesn't mean it's not a very big problem for Voyager. You don't get to make the judgment of what is and is not a REAL problem.

You read that the wrong way. It's actually the opposite of what I said.
But as usual, someone decides to judge me and misunderstand everything I've said. What's new?

 

[Sometimes]

That's not true. Don't go.

I'm not leaving yet. I've still got a few things to do here before I go, not that we know each other or anything. Why would you even care if I left?

Cuz I care about people leaving. Cuz you might say something that makes me think, and what I then think might make me a better person. Or happier. Or smarter. Cuz I want to understand your perspective, why what sounds mean to others doesn't sound mean to you.

 

[Peaches]

I think it's totally true that loneliness is hereditary, I even found that in a book at some point but I am not sure which one right now - we learn socialisation first from our parents, so if our parents are loners or shy some skills never get learned.
This said, some things are also innate, so why in a family where two siblings are raised in similar conditions one child is sociable and the other is a loner is not easy to explain.


My personal story: most of my closest relatives are loners, my father and his brother and sister, they each live alone and never sought much anyone's company (except for my aunt), my father was married once (to my mother, doh), but then he preferred a life of isolation, writing books; his brother was living in his parents house in a room since he was 60 (you read right), and even if he had a "girlfriend" for years he never wanted to live with her. He even bought her a house with all his savings to get her off his back after his parents died, and he goes visit regularly, but never wanted more. My aunt was married for a couple of years, and until 40? had many friends and a great social life, but she always claimed that she loved books and couldn't stand people and only now that she is 65 and mostly alone for the last 20 years I am beginning to see that that statement was true.
My mother was a shy creature without many friends, she dedicated herself to my father, then they separated and she was completely isolated for almost 20 years, just going to work and back.
After therapy and me bothering her all the time to go out, now she has some sort of social life, exclusively with people she has known for at least 30 years, but what makes her happy is to be alone and read difficult books or sew clothes.
When I was bullied at school, she consoled me but never gave me suggestions about how to deal with the other kids, I understand now she didn't know it herself. When I was growing up among all these people I was the freak because I loved company so much.
My grandfather was the same: grandma liked to be alone, three offsprings too, so after he was retired every morning at 8 am he would just go out to all the meetings from city hall and church and anything really and talk all day.

 

[58 Voyager]

@Peaches

I remember in the 1970's, there were ads in the back of magazines, showing a man with his hand on a childs shoulder, photographed from behind, and both were a distance from a populated playground.
The caption was words to the effect of, "How do you expect your child to be social with others when you're not?"

I believe it was assertiveness training for adults or something...but now so much makes sense. I used to be withdrawn and quiet and shy and also angry and hostile and negative and condescending, because I learned those traits from my angry and hostile and negative and condescending caregivers.

What changed me slowly was my job interacting with people and training strangers and becoming confident. What caregivers had killed had reawakened.

My dad, his brother, their father, all extroverted social people...but alone in many ways. Before I met my fiancé, perusing the usual dating sites, it became apparent that so many women were bullsh!tting their own miserable lonely lives with the rhetorical, "I have been blessed to be surrounded by an amazing circle of family and friends who will always come first". That screams of thick and high walls of security.

Growing up I lived with people who never had anyone over, as all they did was badmouth everyone around them. Guess what I learned, right? Took forever to discard those habits.

But, bottom line, today I live in a country I wasn't born in, no aunts or uncles or siblings or cousins or nieces...that kind of alone truly sucks, especially holidays and birthdays.....6 years ago, my boys completely ignored/forgot my birthday...Christmas 2012 and 2013, while everyone was having turkey and family, I went to see a movie then Chinese restaurant for dinner, a big neon L over my head....yeah...

But it's getting better.....

 

[kamya]

I remember in the 1970's, there were ads in the back of magazines, showing a man with his hand on a childs shoulder, photographed from behind, and both were a distance from a populated playground.
The caption was words to the effect of, "How do you expect your child to be social with others when you're not?"

I think it might be a learned thing. My mom recently told me that she blames herself for the way my brother and I are when it comes to social situations. She isn't really good in social situations and we didn't really get to experience many social situations growing up. My brother and I both ended up being loners.

 

[Batman55]

Despicable Me... while I don't aim to add more flames to the fire here... may I gently suggest that, if within half the threads you post in, people are perceiving your posts as abrasive or arrogant.. that you may want to look in the mirror yourself? Before you get all up in arms, do note that this is exactly what you've told so many of us to do.. to examine ourselves. Is it not a fair thing to ask you to re-examine yourself?

I hope you don't find this offensive. I'm just trying to help