Recent convo on "friend-zoning"

[defenestrate]

I don't believe any of us are really in a position to offer sound advice. You just can't plan for how other people will handle criticism or rejection. The bottom line is that nobody is obligated to tell people why they're uninterested; ajdass1 nailed it. Just please always remember that each of us have our own preferences and desires in a relationship. Just because your friend is uninterested, doesn't mean this man has to change himself at all. Sometimes giving people an explanation of why we're uninterested accomplishes nothing. Sometimes the only mature thing to do is set boundaries, and move on. We simply do not know whether or not this guy wants constructive criticism. He's responsible for expressing himself if he wants to talk about it. That's the reason why we're not in a good position to offer advice. We cannot even begin to guess what goes on inside his head.


If there is any dialog just be polite, tactful, and don't drag his personal quirks, (or whatever) through the mud.

 

[EveWasFramed]

I wish I had more info to offer but I don't. She didn't go into too much detail about the stuff that bothered her. I can provide a couple of things she mentioned..
She said that the times they went out (when he paid) that he grossly under-tipped the server when they'd provided excellent service. Something else she mentioned was that his pants were always too short. (that's an odd one) And before anyone she's just being snooty, please don't bother. She has family money but chooses to work at a shelter for homeless people.
This is one of the things that she told me she mentioned to him. Last time he took her out, he picked her up in more too-short pants apparently. She also mentioned that his car was a mess when he's pick her up. She DID mention that he might want to clean it out but that he'd picked her up again with it cluttered with trash.
There are some more serious things but she wouldnt tell me about those. So, as far as examples, that's the best I can offer.
She lives in California....maybe short pants are in style there.

 

[defenestrate]

[video=youtube]

She doesn't want to tap that!?!
What gives?!

Okay. Seriously though. Maybe this is a fashion statement. Maybe he thinks if he wears tight enough pants, he can finally relive the 80's again. The possibilities are endless here. It shouldn't matter if the reasons are petty or serious. It also doesn't matter whether or not we know those reasons. We still cannot even begin to guess what goes on inside his head. The only thing she can really do is say where she stands. If there's resentment, don't beat each other down. Be mature, and respectful.

 

[VPrince]

I'm with Kamya on this one guys. I with brutal honesty on this one. There is no worse feeling in the world than being rejected and not knowing why. I'm not just talking about girls but job interviews, applications, or any situation where you'd be rejected. I hate the way they reject you anyways: "We see you are qualified for the job, but you aren't a good fit. We wish you well on your job search." They are spitting in your face! I'm not good enough for you?! After drowning away in actuarial exams?! But some half-assed guy with good networking skills is?!

Luckily girls aren't like companies in that they don't say: "Oh, you are a great guy but I see you haven't had much girlfriend experience. tsk tsk tsk. I don't think you're a good fit."

(but who knows, they might be thinking it)

However, I've been rejected enough times to have become numb to it. If I were in his position I would consider it rude and disrespectful to their friendship to not know why exactly I was being rejected. If he ends up walking away with low self-esteem and a deflated ego, so be it but atleast he knows if it was ever going to work out between them or not. If he makes too much of a fuss out of it, he's probably not ready for the relationship anyways.

 

[defenestrate]

What would you do?
What would you do if a woman told you why she isn't interested?
How will it help you?

Respecting yourself is okay. Trying to improve yourself is okay. Believing you are somehow unlovable until you fix something about yourself isn't okay. You could spend forever trying to mold yourself into a different person. And it still won't change the fact that each woman is going to have their own unique desires in a relationship. Each person has their own individually unique, and subjective thoughts and feelings. You just cannot plan for that. There's a difference between self-improvement and a sense of inadequacies. Some people are constantly trying to change themselves because they feel bad about themselves. It's a vicious cycle. You can make clear, in no uncertain terms, that things would have never worked out in a relationship. If (you) feel disrespected because she wouldn't outline the reasons why she felt this way, you are responsible for expressing yourself and asking about it. Nobody is a mind reader. If (he) feels disrespected, only he can choose to talk about it. Understanding the reasons why things won't work isn't going to suddenly make her fall head over heels. It won't change the situation, and it might only highlight arbitrary and pointless stuff which doesn't even need to be changed.

You are a constant in any relationship. From one new relationship to another, you will always be there. Possessing that kind of information isn't going to make you a better constant. Trying to mold yourself to one woman's taste doesn't have anything to do with the next person you meet. It only changes yourself, while chasing after an ideal. An ideal which only one person wanted in her own relationship. An ideal which the next person won't appreciate the very same way. If you have a long history of failed relationships, why not take a moment to look at yourself and how you socialize with other people? You can work through it with a therapist.

 

[perfanoff]

I wish I had more info to offer but I don't. She didn't go into too much detail about the stuff that bothered her. I can provide a couple of things she mentioned..
She said that the times they went out (when he paid) that he grossly under-tipped the server when they'd provided excellent service. Something else she mentioned was that his pants were always too short. (that's an odd one) And before anyone she's just being snooty, please don't bother. She has family money but chooses to work at a shelter for homeless people.
This is one of the things that she told me she mentioned to him. Last time he took her out, he picked her up in more too-short pants apparently. She also mentioned that his car was a mess when he's pick her up. She DID mention that he might want to clean it out but that he'd picked her up again with it cluttered with trash.
There are some more serious things but she wouldnt tell me about those. So, as far as examples, that's the best I can offer.
She lives in California....maybe short pants are in style there.

Indeed it kinda is.
It can get pretty hot down there in SoCal ._.

Haha but the kind of messy cars some guys drive in.. like having nowhere to step from paperbags, plastic bottles and such.. you can never know if there's a new lifeform mutating somewhere in the mess

 

[EveWasFramed]

Haha but the kind of messy cars some guys drive in.. like having nowhere to step from paperbags, plastic bottles and such.. you can never know if there's a new lifeform mutating somewhere in the mess

LOL, is that where the critter in your signature came from?

 

[Badjedidude]

Her question to me, was whether or not she should be 100% honest with him, and tell him about the things that keep him in the friend zone (so maybe he can learn something), or just say that she's isnt interested in anything more and save his pride.

Here's what I think:

Only tell him the truth if there's any indication that it will actually help him. If there are signs that he won't listen, or that he's not going to actually take the reasons she gives him and actually work to change himself, then she shouldn't waste her time. Because no one can change someone else -- if the guy has no drive within him to change, then she has no right to expect him to otherwise; especially since they aren't actually in a relationship.

Personally, I think that if she finds his faults to be deal-breakers (if he doesn't change), then she should just break off all contact and possibly not even be friends with him. Maybe that sounds drastic, but if the guy wants a deeper relationship and she keeps him in the "friendzone," then it's only going to hurt him more.

What I'd suggest is that she takes this as a failed attempt at a relationship, and simply move on.

 

[perfanoff]

Haha but the kind of messy cars some guys drive in.. like having nowhere to step from paperbags, plastic bottles and such.. you can never know if there's a new lifeform mutating somewhere in the mess

LOL, is that where the critter in your signature came from?

His name is Willy

 

[Revengineer]

It depends what your friend is trying to accomplish with this guy. Telling him the reasons why she isn't attracted might only make him think "well, if I change A and B about myself then she'll agree to a relationship with me!" when it really isn't so simple. He seems to be pursuing her pretty aggressively, so if he senses the door is open even a tiny bit he'll probably just keep trying. If she'd rather not deal with him anymore then it's best to tell him no, there's no chance and that's final. It sucks but it's probably the only way to get him to leave her alone.

 

[EveWasFramed]

It depends what your friend is trying to accomplish with this guy. Telling him the reasons why she isn't attracted might only make him think "well, if I change A and B about myself then she'll agree to a relationship with me!" when it really isn't so simple. He seems to be pursuing her pretty aggressively, so if he senses the door is open even a tiny bit he'll probably just keep trying. If she'd rather not deal with him anymore then it's best to tell him no, there's no chance and that's final. It sucks but it's probably the only way to get him to leave her alone.

That's a question I can't answer - she didnt actually say that she wanted him to leave her alone - just that there were things about him that she knew would keep her from wanted to be anything more than friends.

 

[ardour]

I wish I had more info to offer but I don't. She didn't go into too much detail about the stuff that bothered her. I can provide a couple of things she mentioned..
She said that the times they went out (when he paid) that he grossly under-tipped the server when they'd provided excellent service. Something else she mentioned was that his pants were always too short. (that's an odd one) And before anyone she's just being snooty, please don't bother. She has family money but chooses to work at a shelter for homeless people.
This is one of the things that she told me she mentioned to him. Last time he took her out, he picked her up in more too-short pants apparently. She also mentioned that his car was a mess when he's pick her up. She DID mention that he might want to clean it out but that he'd picked her up again with it cluttered with trash.
There are some more serious things but she wouldnt tell me about those. So, as far as examples, that's the best I can offer.
She lives in California....maybe short pants are in style there.

I don't know what to think but... it doesn't sound like she finds him attractive at all, so why did she agree to go out with this guy in the first place? Seems inconsiderate to get his hopes up like that.

Some people just aren't familiar with tipping etiquette by the way.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Just like I'd rather be told why, I'd also rather be honest. Although I can understand both sides. Walking away just seems easier.

 

[EveWasFramed]

I don't know what to think but... it doesn't sound like she finds him attractive at all, so why did she agree to go out with this guy in the first place? Seems inconsiderate to get his hopes up like that.

Some people just aren't familiar with tipping etiquette by the way.

She didnt tell me that she doesnt find him attractive. In fact, she didnt mention looks at all. Also, how do you get to know someone UNLESS you go out with them? I think it's pretty standard to go out with them BEFORE you make that call, isn't it? So I dont see her being inconsiderate at all.
As for some people not being familiar with tipping etiquettte, here in the states, you'd have to pretty much live under a rock and never eat at a restaurant NOT to know how much to tip a server.

 

[ardour]

She didnt tell me that she doesnt find him attractive. In fact, she didnt mention looks at all. Also, how do you get to know someone UNLESS you go out with them? I think it's pretty standard to go out with them BEFORE you make that call, isn't it? So I dont see her being inconsiderate at all.
As for some people not being familiar with tipping etiquettte, here in the states, you'd have to pretty much live under a rock and never eat at a restaurant NOT to know how much to tip a server.

"She's been on a few dates with a guy that she's known for a bit"

Sounded like she knew him from before they went out.

---

The problem with telling him is that he might offer to change whatever the problems are - and then expect her to give him another chance.

The reality is that she's drawn conclusions about his personality because of these sorts of things. But how would she politely put that to him?

Better to just let him down gently without being too specific, he'll probably work it out eventually.

Maybe letting him have the dignity of working it out for himself is kinder.

 

[ladyforsaken]

Like a lot of other responses, I think it's always best not to leave the other person hanging or wondering why. I have gone through something like that before, being the person not knowing why.. and all sorts of reasons fill my mind when I tried to understand it. Save the guy all that trouble, and who knows what he would've done when he's frustrated not knowing why.

but from what she said, it's personal stuff that would likely hurt his feelings.
I guess I can sympathize with that - I loathe hurting another person.

This is true too. I think that I'm currently undergoing something similar in a way.. so I feel like I can relate. It's much harder when you're the one in the situation. We or I can all say that she should go ahead and tell him, but for her to do it, it's like .. ugh. Cos I am having a hard time practising what I preach to others. Sighs. So it's tough. Not easy.

Aint no easy way out here, you're gonna have to pick the lesser of 2 evils.
Since no 2 people are the same it's hard for anyone on a forum to know what that is.
Either you keep keep ignoring the elephant in the room, keeping the illusion that he has a shot and eventually his self esteem will break down anyway since he isn't getting anywhere, or you give him the truth which will, if his personality allows it, mean you can both move forward.
As for me personally I'd prefer the truth every time, and I don't mean brutally honest here, like others have said just bring it subtly, but don't try to sugarcoat it too much or you'll (in my eyes) come across as patronizing.
Here's another thing to consider, if being honest is something bad enough to break a friendship, was it a friendship worth keeping?

That's very insightful and interesting question there, Sigma. Sigma's got a point here, you wouldn't wanna go all out and reject him so brutally that it scars him, but rather reject him honestly but subtly so the impact is not very negative.

Again though, it's easier said.. than done or when you're the one in that spot.

 

[nerdygirl]

Unless it is something I believe is detrimental to a person's well being, I don't tell people reasons I'm uninterested. I'm fine with telling somebody, "You drink too much for me/ You're so overweight that I'm worried about potential health issues/ I don't date smokers/ You need to get into counseling for your emotional issues/ etc."

There are often things that I might consider flaws, but which might be considered strengths to somebody else. The traits I cherish in potential partners are often belittled by other people, and my compliments are often seen as meaningless flattery, sarcasm, whatever. Because I'm so aware of that, I won't tell somebody reasons that are more about me than they are about him.

So I think it really depends on the trait- and on how tactfully it can be addressed.

 

[Sarah_Lbnz]

I don't believe any of us are really in a position to offer sound advice. You just can't plan for how other people will handle criticism or rejection. The bottom line is that nobody is obligated to tell people why they're uninterested; ajdass1 nailed it. Just please always remember that each of us have our own preferences and desires in a relationship. Just because your friend is uninterested, doesn't mean this man has to change himself at all. Sometimes giving people an explanation of why we're uninterested accomplishes nothing. Sometimes the only mature thing to do is set boundaries, and move on. We simply do not know whether or not this guy wants constructive criticism. He's responsible for expressing himself if he wants to talk about it. That's the reason why we're not in a good position to offer advice. We cannot even begin to guess what goes on inside his head.


If there is any dialog just be polite, tactful, and don't drag his personal quirks, (or whatever) through the mud.

I second this.

Why isn't enough for your friend to say, "you're just not the one." and leave it at that? why does she have to explain herself?

Sure, it can be frustrating for the person being rejected, but she isn't responsible for his feelings. I'm sure he's a big boy by now, he can deal with that.

 

[Dissident]

How someone is rejected forms the basis for how they act in the future regarding relationships. I personally have been rejected so many times after adapting so many tactics and even personality shifts that I refuse to actually put in the effort anymore to obtain a relationship because the mental, emotional, and even financial cost of trying to get a relationship makes it a complete and total waste of time and energy. And yet at the same time, while I am not in a [happy] relationship I suffer. Friends have noted that I am visibly more frustrated and pessimistic than usual when I'm single (or as is currently the case, in an unhappy relationship). But trying to get a date and failing always makes it so much worse to deal with it.

Yeah, in an ideal world we manage our own feelings and reactions to things. Being someone who defaults to rational behavior I find my emotions to be utterly crippling. But everyone's emotional responses to things are based on the kind of things others have said and done as we've grown up. I was bullied a lot for my intellectual curiosity growing up. As a consequence I have anger issues, a general distrust of others, and sometimes a feeling that I am being hindered by a society twisted into the favor of the intellectually vacuous. People with a weaker will have killed themselves and/or others for being bullied. Should the people who torment them with disregard to others not be ashamed?

Likewise my experience with relationships has hardened me. I no longer feel joy from embracing a loved one, I am uncomfortable with flirting, I am constantly guarded, and I'll be honest... I'm bitter. I am so goddamned bitter it's frustrating. I don't like being this way at all because I know that women are people and holding people to stereotypes is cruel, dishonest and cheap. But just thinking about how utterly futile it would be to attempt to initiate anything again makes me feel so cynical. Resisting killing myself - not as an escape, but as an expression of pure and unadulterated spite - is really, really hard. I am damaged beyond repair. I probably wouldn't be if I hadn't been rejected like a pathetic excuse of a human because someone said my feelings aren't her responsibility.

 

[ardour]

How someone is rejected forms the basis for how they act in the future regarding relationships. I personally have been rejected so many times after adapting so many tactics and even personality shifts that I refuse to actually put in the effort anymore to obtain a relationship because the mental, emotional, and even financial cost of trying to get a relationship makes it a complete and total waste of time and energy. And yet at the same time, while I am not in a [happy] relationship I suffer. Friends have noted that I am visibly more frustrated and pessimistic than usual when I'm single (or as is currently the case, in an unhappy relationship). But trying to get a date and failing always makes it so much worse to deal with it.

Yeah, in an ideal world we manage our own feelings and reactions to things. Being someone who defaults to rational behavior I find my emotions to be utterly crippling. But everyone's emotional responses to things are based on the kind of things others have said and done as we've grown up. I was bullied a lot for my intellectual curiosity growing up. As a consequence I have anger issues, a general distrust of others, and sometimes a feeling that I am being hindered by a society twisted into the favor of the intellectually vacuous. People with a weaker will have killed themselves and/or others for being bullied. Should the people who torment them with disregard to others not be ashamed?

Likewise my experience with relationships has hardened me. I no longer feel joy from embracing a loved one, I am uncomfortable with flirting, I am constantly guarded, and I'll be honest... I'm bitter. I am so goddamned bitter it's frustrating. I don't like being this way at all because I know that women are people and holding people to stereotypes is cruel, dishonest and cheap. But just thinking about how utterly futile it would be to attempt to initiate anything again makes me feel so cynical. Resisting killing myself - not as an escape, but as an expression of pure and unadulterated spite - is really, really hard. I am damaged beyond repair. I probably wouldn't be if I hadn't been rejected like a pathetic excuse of a human because someone said my feelings aren't her responsibility.

That's some fearsomely articulated frustration. I often wonder why relationships have to be this hard; I mean if you want to be with someone and they you then why is all the emotional torment and self-doubt a necessary element to it? That just speaks to my lack of actual experience.