Unanswered Prayers?

[Constantin]

Not sure what "normal" has to do with anything. People tend to "hate" whoever they want, whether they are "kind" to them or not. Children with abusive parents can grow to be good. Children with good parents can grow to be bad. It goes with what I said before, if there is a will, there is a way. You are who YOU choose to be.

That is the opposite of what neuroscience shows. You're pointing out outliers, which only prove the existence of a norm. And the norm is that people involuntarily love those who are kind to them. Again, there are exceptions, but those are caused by certain factors such as genetics, bad influence etc.

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/140517NCJRS.pdf

 

[TheRealCallie]

That is the opposite of what neuroscience shows. You're pointing out outliers, which only prove the existence of a norm. And the norm is that people involuntarily love those who are kind to them. Again, there are exceptions, but those are caused by certain factors such as genetics, bad influence etc.

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/140517NCJRS.pdf

I'm sorry, you're debating this with something that is over 2 decades old and is formed from information from 1945-1989? lol, yeah, sorry, but no. Seriously outdated information.

 

[Constantin]

I'm sorry, you're debating this with something that is over 2 decades old and is formed from information from 1945-1989? lol, yeah, sorry, but no. Seriously outdated information.

Show me more recent studies that contradict these findings. Otherwise, you're dismissing research on the sole ground that it is old, which is chronological snobbery. That's not how science works.

Here are some more recent studies that seem to indicate the same general idea that children raised by loving parents are less likely to develop deviant behaviors:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...atterns_among_children_in_care_homes_in_Irbid

https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2022/vulnerable-children-more-likely-to-offend-as-adult

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/featured-articles/adverse-childhood-experiences-and-crime

Claiming that people can choose to do right or wrong despite their experiential background is incredibly naïve. Every decision we make is heavily influenced by a host of factors that we can't even imagine. We might be able to choose to do what we want to some degree, but we cannot choose what we want. We do not have free will. We might have a will, but it is not free.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

If I throw a baseball, for example, it is determined, after it leaves my hand, that it will follow the laws of gravity, and momentum and such; ie: it will leave my hand, fly through the air for some time, then be pulled to the earth by gravity and friction from the air it's moving through.

That's all that, Determinism, is. It's just cause and effect. Determinism isn't a philosophy or even an empirical finding.

Some people who are quite knowledgeable in certain academic fields, or research areas, etc., may have strong feelings about the implications about this; because, well, people are people.

A, thus, B. That's it. Cause and effect.

I think what people get hung up on, is the effect of, (A thus B), because, well.. People are people.. And the cause of, 'A thus B,' still seems to be Undefined.

I am a person, too. heh.

As for my feelings/opinions on the matter. I'd like to think, that I tend towards the preference, of a Universe, that, likes to throw curve balls, from time to time, shake things up, and surprise us now and again.

Though it's also nice to know, that, when I walk out the front door, I won't fall into the sky, without warning. heh.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Show me more recent studies that contradict these findings. Otherwise, you're dismissing research on the sole ground that it is old, which is chronological snobbery. That's not how science works.

Here are some more recent studies that seem to indicate the same general idea that children raised by loving parents are less likely to develop deviant behaviors:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...atterns_among_children_in_care_homes_in_Irbid

https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2022/vulnerable-children-more-likely-to-offend-as-adult

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/featured-articles/adverse-childhood-experiences-and-crime

Claiming that people can choose to do right or wrong despite their experiential background is incredibly naïve. Every decision we make is heavily influenced by a host of factors that we can't even imagine. We might be able to choose to do what we want to some degree, but we cannot choose what we want. We do not have free will. We might have a will, but it is not free.

Actually, that is exactly how science works. Old data gets tossed out when new data comes to light. That's why we have new methods and technology to do things better. As for "chronological snobbery"....yeah, sorry, but it's not. It's a fact. You can't take data from the 40's through the 80's and apply them to today's people. Because they are VASTLY different people with vastly different morals, value and ethics.

Your first article is only about kids in Jordan, which is hardly a representation. The second article only tracks 4300 people, which is hardly an efficient portayal. And the third does give some credence to your claims...BUT, you contradict yourself and end with arguing MY point. You say that everything we do is influenced by a host of factors, which is true, but what exactly are those factors if not CHOICES and EXCUSES or even a cry for attention. Which indicates that we DO generally know right from wrong. The vast majaority of these kids know what they are doing is illegal, they just don't care. They think they are smart enought to not get caught. Which indicates that they DO know right from wrong and they do have a choice.

There are plenty of research articles out there that will say the opposite of anything you say. Am I going to provide them for you? No, because if you can't be bothered to look at both sides....if you can't be bothered to have a civil debate with me without resorting to saying I'm attacking you and insinuating that I'm ignorant, I'm not about to do your work for you because you don't want to see and look at every angle of something. This is half the problem with people being so damn offended today, they only look at the side that agrees with them. You ARE who you choose to be. You are a product of what YOU choose to do in life. Whether you want to believe that or not is irrelevant. There are many successful people who have had traumatic childhoods. They push themselves so they can be better, so they don't become what the people who traumatized them. They made a different choice. They CHOSE who they wanted to be and they worked their ***** off to get what they wanted. You can DO something or you can cave and find excuses. That is a choice every single person has. That is a choice every single person STILL has regardless of age or past.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Though it's also nice to know, that, when I walk out the front door, I won't fall into the sky, without warning. heh.

I think @MrLonely86 would very much like that to happen.....

 

[MrLonely86]

I think @MrLonely86 would very much like that to happen.....

You know me well. I'm sick of this planet, so can't wait for rapture to come. <3

 

[Constantin]

Old data gets tossed out when new data comes to light.

You have yet to provide new data that contradicts those studies.

You ARE who you choose to be. You are a product of what YOU choose to do in life. Whether you want to believe that or not is irrelevant.

Absolutely false. Our brains literally transform without us even knowing due to factors from our interactions with everyone around us all throughout our lives. That bullying from elementary school that I barely remember? Yeah, that contributed to my personality, which reflects on every decision I make. So did those encouraging words from a random teacher in high-school.

Here is a detailed explanation on why we don't have free will:

 

[TheRealCallie]

Dude, learn to agree to disagree. You can believe whatever you want and you can throw all the "facts" and "studies" at me you won't, it won't change my mind. Like I said, there is more than one side to everything, maybe go take a look at the other side instead of just relying on whatever agrees with your beliefs.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Just thought I would share...

I was outside meditating and praying, earlier. Sometimes, I'm hesitant to pray. My prayers often amount to... Begging? Perhaps? Petitions? Requests? So, sometimes I'm hesitant to do so, because: it often seems like things only get worse when I pray.

Some one on here said once, something to the effect of: "If you pray for rain, you'd better be willing to accept the mud and puddles." (Gah, I hate such wisdom! hehe). Or others have said, "Be careful what you pray for, you might just get it."

And, if there any heady atheist/agnostic types: you'll understand the concept of, "A butterfly flaps it wings..." (The Butterfly Effect (Interconnectedness) Chaos))).

Anyway, I had a brief realization: (what for me was a sufficient answer, at the time, anyway). Perhaps sometimes, it's not about the response/outcome to the prayer. It's just about praying, the act of doing so. It can be nice to pray. There are many beautiful and poetic prayers out there.

I've heard some say, when asked if they pray: "I communicate." I like that idea. To communicate. To communicate with nature, the moon, the stars, the wind, waters... And with hearts, minds, and souls. I think, anyway.

There are outcomes I could concern myself with: this way or that way. But, for a brief time, I enjoyed my communion, my prayer, my meditation.

Anyway...

 

[Constantin]

If you talk to the moon, the wind and water in public and claim that they hear you, they'll recommend a psychiatrist, diagnose you with a mental illness and give you medication. But if you do it and call it prayer, it's suddenly religion/spirituality and it's protected by the Constitution.