unlovable, ugly, so depressed

[The Good Citizen]

Great to here you are going to the doctors. When you go, be determined to get answers and make sure you convey the phsycological impact this has all had on you. Don't down play it, open up and make sure you express everything just as you have on here. Doctors can brush people off initially so make sure that doesn't happen when you go. They are well placed to advise you on weight gain too (it could be medical such as diabetes or overactive thyroid or just a naturally high metabolism so its worth discussing) be sure to think of all the questions you want to go through when you're there so you don;t leave anything unsaid.

Good luck anyway, I hope you get some answers and a bit of hope for the future.

 

[Jabba]

I'm not sure I buy the beauty in the eye of the beholder business personally.

Beauty is pretty much maths... the golden ratio, 1:1.612 or something close to that. If you apply it across all the relative angles of the face you can make people more or less attractive. If you show pictures of a face with a perfect golden ratio (say Liz Hurley) and a face with many imperfections (John Cleese in this example) then 100% of the babies faced with both images will instantly look at Liz and ignore John. Forget the name of the documentary, but I'm sure you can find it with google and knowing John Cleese presented it.

People have small preferential taste differences within that construct... some like big noses or wider chins that remind them of, or contrast to, their own genetic heritage, but on the whole it is that mathematical yardstick by which every person who sees you subconsciously judges you as soon as they set eyes on you - along with pheramones and matters of character too. You see people before you speak to or smell them usually though lol .

The statistic about women knowing if they want to have sex with you in the first 30 secs isn't a grounded study, but as one observer on the subject says...

"A woman doesn’t decide within the first 30 seconds of meeting a guy if she’s going to sleep with him. Instead, women know within the first 30 seconds of meeting a guy if they’re *not* going to sleep with him... or if she's going to stay open to the idea."

It's no judgement of women, just a subconscious decision and we all make millions of those every day without thinking about it or even knowing we're doing it.

I am looking forward to the doc and psychiatrist. I actually got an appointment for 2nd Jan. I will write down all my questions first so I dont forget anything.

tx guys... you dont know how much I appreciate having people to talk to who are kind and understanding.

fyi, im not really close with my parents, but i am with my sister. She has two young kids and a husband in london though, so I only see her every 3 or 4 months when she comes here to visit. Same with most of my old friends from home. Neither Louis or Rhiannon come anywhere near me, so in between I am completely alone and people don't visit in winter, so this time of year is a b1tch.

I spend my spare time [who am i kidding, it's all spare] in the garden with my veg, or with my animals (cats, dog and chickens), or on my pc playing poker, watching comedies, smoking weed, travelling, cooking etc. Not very exciting I know ;P

 

[SofiasMami]

Well I' m glad to hear you have an appt on Jan 2, good for you. Let us know how it goes and even if that appt isnt life changing, keep going.
You'll have to update us in a new thread because you're not a new member anymore!

Merry Christmas,
Teresa

 

[Phaedron]

I'm not sure I buy the beauty in the eye of the beholder business personally. Beauty is pretty much maths... the golden ratio, 1:1.612 .... John Cleese presented it.

"A woman doesn’t decide within the first 30 seconds of meeting a guy if she’s going to sleep with him. Instead, women know within the first 30 seconds of meeting a guy if they’re *not* going to sleep with him... or if she's going to stay open to the idea."

It's no judgement of women, just a subconscious decision and we all make millions of those every day without thinking about it or even knowing we're doing it.

I spend my spare time [who am i kidding, it's all spare] in the garden with my veg, or with my animals (cats, dog and chickens), or on my pc playing poker, watching comedies, smoking weed, travelling, cooking etc. Not very exciting I know ;P

Everything is according to the golden ratio, unless we're talking circus clown ugly or a completely disfigured face.

John Cleese... wasn't he in Monty Python?

So you think all women will decide in 30 seconds there's a chance they will sleep with an attractive guy even if they're in a relationship? I think as a generalization men and women would default to not thinking about it, but if you happen to see someone who is dressed or acting sexy... even someone who normally does not can still grow on you, especially with the right setup.

In the context of meeting a stranger on the basis of dating them, I think we'd all make that decision right away. If looks are acceptable, then we get to personality, and other details.

You say there is no judgment to women, but it's clearly only aimed at women, and most applicable to the type that sleep around freely. Then it's passed off as applying to all women, but still fails to include men, subconsciously implying that all women are like that. There's really no getting around it, which is why one would perceive the need to defend it in the first place.

As for the last part, I just wanted to say that Weed Dealers are the flakiest people on the face of the Earth, if you know what I mean. I also have mostly free time.

 

[Jabba]

"In the context of meeting a stranger on the basis of dating them, I think we'd all make that decision right away. If looks are acceptable, then we get to personality, and other details."

This is exactly what I meant, and that for someone like me it is physically impossible to get past that first step, ever. But most average or a bit below average people dont understand or believe that 100% of women can discount you for how you look. They are wrong. 100% of men discount certain women too and they end up living lives without any love or companionship... examples are plentiful.

I also don't think it's just women, it's just that I only notice or care that women do it. I do the same thing.... as I said above, there are lots of women that no matter how amazing I could never date them. I don't need a 'good looking' girl, but I do need someone who I find at least a little bit physically attractive. All men and women feel like that; no woman could ever find me even a tiny bit attractive, ergo women's initial judgement of me as unworthy of a second glance is what upsets me and gets me down, because it is totally unanimous and I can't change how I look.

The circus clown distortions and disfigured faces are distorions of the golden ratio... it's exactly their empahsis away from the ratio that makes them unattractive or funny, so everything about appearance still comes down to that ratio and the distortion of it.

I'm also not a weed dealer and no one has ever described me as flaky... I'm pretty driven and successul in terms of work and I'm self-sufficient - providing/making all my own food, electricity, booze, pumping my own water. I don't think 'flakey' people generally end up walking this path.

Sorry, no offence, just think you misunderstand me and therefore your comments got under my skin a bit.... I am not 'flakey'.

Yes John Cleese was part of the Oxford crew that did the python series and films... perhaps even more famously he was Basil in 'fawlty towers' "Baaassiiiillll" /shrill voice

 

[Phaedron]

I know, that wasn't directed "at" you, I just meant as a smoker, you sometimes meet flakey dealers.

Yeah I thought so, faulty towers is funny, It's been a long time since I watched it though.

Sorry, I have no better advice. I tend to suffer from the same situation.

 

[Bob Arctor]

...My problem is that the moment I do find her even slightly attractive it makes me feel disgusting and like I need to leave the room as quickly as possible... so no, Ive never asked a woman out before because I can sense how uncomfortable I make them when I get even the tiniest bit flirty because they are scared about leading me on when they know they could never fancy me.

Three words dude: self fulfilling prophecy.

All you're doing is projecting your insecurities onto another person whom you really have no idea as to what's going on in their head. You're rejecting yourself before they even get a chance to get to know you. Every single guy in those pictures is normal to above average looking. Your looks aren't what's keeping you lonely, it's your self image and your refusal to take the risk of putting yourself out there and possibly getting turned down. No guts no glory, that's all there is to it.

 

[LonelyInAtl]

Well as someone who is truly unattractive i can say that most of what has been said here about women dismissing guys based on looks true.

 

[Jabba]

Any blokes ever considered buying a 3rd world bride and just hoping she's grateful and nice?

Has crossed my mind a few times. It would be embarassing with friends and family knowing, but possibly better than this misery...?

---

"whom you really have no idea as to what's going on in their head."

This is my problem... I do know what's going on in their heads. I was a professional poker player for nearly 10 years and I am extremely good at reading body language, expressions and human motivation.

I also don't think it's helpful to crack on to a girl, make her uncomfortable and get myself even more depressed, when I know and can see she is thinking 'what is this weird ugly dude doing talking to me, he's funny, but fekin hell he's weird looking, I hope he doesn't try anything on'

I don't need to have cracked on to women to know that. I've been on plenty of dates through dating agencies, blind dates etc... it's not that I've never tried. Girls always just say the same thing - sorry James, you're a lovely guy, just not my type.

I've also seen it from the other side when some really unattractive girl comes on to me and I am the one panicking and being put in an awkward and uncomfortable position of having to turn them down without hurting their feelings. I wish most women were as careful about not saying anything to upset blokes, but women seem to think men can take it and they can be very, very cruel and spiteful in the way they say no when they are approached by a stranger in a bar. I've seen good looking men reduced to tears by cruel put downs and I'm far too sensitive to get over any more horrible and cruel memories of evil, cackling women tell me I'm crazy for trying.

It isn't no guts no glory... it's no guts for good reason and to reduce shame and embarassment for myself and others.

Asking an ugly person to 'get out there and try' is very dangerous advice given they would be turned down by any girl they went near and I'm already suicidally depressed.

---

and yes, obviously I wish I didn't care what a girl looked like.

if a girl is good enough for me to want her, then there is no way she could want me. If she's a bit of a retard or just hideous then she might be lonely enough to settle for me... that isn't a recipe for a happy future either though is it?

---

FYI, I know the other photos didnt really show how unattractive I am so people keep denying it. I tend to delete any photo that does - which is 90% of them - but here's one that gives a better idea than the last two and shows 50% of my ugly side, so people stop saying 'you're not unattractive' and irritating me.

This is not the kind of human male face which a female could be physically attracted to. My face is just nose, lips and baggy eyes and my physique is impossibly skinny.

 

[The Good Citizen]

I think to be honest with most people on this site they are willing to offer advice and discuss how someone feels but they'll look for a little positivity in the poster eventually, otherwise what’s the point? Just a sign that the poster feels things can change and for the better, even if it will take a long time.

I think with yourself it’s quite frustrating because all that is really expressed in your posts is "No"..."No".."No chance of that ever happening".... "No point in trying that"..."There’s no hope for me".

So is that how you feel? I think in your OP you were asking for advice but is that really what you are after or just somewhere to express your sadness at your lot in life, which is fine I suppose I just think you should set peoples expectations accordingly so they don't look to ways to try and help as it will probably only frustrate you more if people are offering ideas when you don't want to hear them anymore.

I do think a lot of your problems are all in your head, I've said that a few times and others have too. Its good you are going to see a doctor in the new year, all I would say is until that time and during the time you spend with the doctor in particular, just keep an open mind. I know you said you play poker and can read people, I used to play a lot too and I often think I'm much better at reading other peoples feelings than I am at my own. I second guess myself, I over complicate things, I look at what other people might be thinking or why from every single angle possible and can eventually get tangled up in my own mind. Sometimes it’s better to just accept that our view of the world is skewed and we no longer know what the truth is its then you need to seek help and see where it takes you.

So I'm not listening to the negative it’s all been said now surely, just try to be positive as a thought exercise if nothing else, and see where it leads you to. You're not a lost cause you just need help and a good dose of therapy and advice from your doctor, but unless you buy in to it and work with it you'll be getting nowhere.

 

[Jabba]

I was kinda hoping for advice at how to deal with the misery, not the situation, and stories from people telling me that being in love was just as bad, that all human beings feel ths suffering about something or other (the turture and stress of raising kids, or irritation at your partner in a relationship, and that the reason mine is worse is just cos of my self-pity, not because I won't ever love any one or be loved... which is no great hardship.

I also just wanted other people to say they shared and understood my pain (which some have) so that I didn't feel quite so alone.

I really dont feel like the problem itself is solvable, but lots of people have unsolvable problems like that and they still get on with life, so I was hoping for some new prspectives to help me feel better.

It has kinda worked, but I have spent most of my time being negative because people keep trying to say there is hope and as far as I'm concerned hope is the enemy. It's hope that caused all this. As Seneca quite rightly said, all suffering and pain in the world comes from unmet expectations. I want to lower my expectations for life, but it's harder to do in practice because I'm so programmed to think that love is what life is all about because that's what you hear and see every minute in the modern world, even if you never experience it.

Bah I dunno. I'm just suicidal, confused and my chest hurts.

 

[LonelyInAtl]

You're a hell of a lot better looking than me!

 

[Peaches]

mm, where is the Edit feature?

 

[Jabba]

You're a hell of a lot better looking than me!

dont believe that for a second and i'd swap blind if i could

;P

 

[LonelyInAtl]

I'm up for it....we can do a Freaky Friday!

 

[Bob Arctor]

Well I dunno man, from my point of view you're not ugly. So you're really good at reading body language, did you ever consider that the negative body language being displayed by the women you've seen is a reaction to how they sense you feel about yourself? I've heard it said that women can be hypersensitive to confidence, or lack there of. Maybe it has a lot less to do with how you look, and a lot more to do with how your perceive yourself to look in their eyes. I truly believe that your problems stem from your own self image, and people can pick up on that pretty quickly. IMO, success in the dating arena is about being able to deal with rejection, and not basing your self worth on what others think of you. I've seen it firsthand (with guys much less physically gifted than you) that if they like themselves, the women like them as well.

I'm not saying it's ever easy, and yes you might want to consider some type of therapy before you put yourself out there. I just really can't see someone who looks like you being thwarted by physical appearance alone. I strongly believe it's an issue with your own self image/self esteem. In my experience, when I feel badly about myself for one reason or another, people around me pick up on that, and their negative reactions reinforce what I feel about myself. It can turn into a dangerous downward spiral. However, what I've also experienced is that whenever I've had success in any social circumstance, it was when I wasn't focusing on what I didn't like about myself, and was either feeling good about myself internally or was just focusing on the external events and people around me. If you can find a way to build up your internal framework, and just like yourself for who you are, I believe things will change for you. Again, it's not an easy task and can take a lot of work, but ultimately it's your decision.

 

[Jabba]

Thanks Bob.

You are right obviously. Feeling bad about yourself does project that and people are sensitive enough to pick up on it, just like I do in poker - I know I'm not especially gifted or talented, most people can do it if they practice and keep their eyes open.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I have undoubtably projected a complete lack of confidence in front of women for most of my life. The reason for that is because so many of them told me I was ugly when I was young though. I have some really horrific memories that haunt me every day and plague me like a shadow... things said to my face and things I overheard behind my back.

I'm touched that you'd still say you think I'm not that ugly because the guy I see in that pic couldn't pull in a rowing boat.

I have been very confident in other ways. I am a fun nice guy and really very likable until you get to know me properly. Well, I over compensate for my insecurities by being bubbly and loud and I hate myself, so I take the piss out of myself a lot. I know that some women have almost managed to make themselves see past how I look because they liked me when they first met me. I can still hear their voices ringing in my ears though "sorry James, you're brilliant, I just can't make myself fancy you, no matter how much I like you". /gah