What romantic things are women known for?

[xephier102]

Like looks are so subjective

Saying that looks are subjective is like saying 'everyone is a little autistic'. It's ignorant and dismissive of what those that are born with less, have to go through. There is a mainstream ideal of what good looks are, and most people tend to follow that. And that's not just me being self deprecating.. It's a dead to rights fact. look it up on google if you don't believe me. There actually used to be a website on the internet 20sum years back called 'uglypeople.com'.

Being ugly to the mainstream is like being black 50-60 years ago in one of the less (but still) racist neighborhoods, but with one major exception, no one will admit you're black; they'll just try and convince you that it's all in your head.

I mean, like I've said, looks may be subjective, but there is a HUGE lifestyle difference between 1 outta a million people finding you attractive, or 900+k outta a million finding you attractive (Like Tom cruise or somethin).. I mean, if one person outta a million finds you attractive, then the chances of even meeting that person, then of them being single, then of them having similar likes/interests/goals/belief system to yours.. It's pretty damned low.. It'd literally be like winning the lottery, not just because of how good it'd be, but because it'd be nearly impossible.

And to pre-emptively catch the predictable followup argument, I'm not the type that believes that opposites attract. I mean, I don't. It's silly.. Two people with opposing interests/belief system are very unlikely to connect on an intellectual level. And imho, that phrase was brought about with the same mentality of 'love at first sight'.

Like, maybe hypothetically, if she was a christian, but didn't push her beliefs, and was otherwise open minded, wasn't a blind patriot, and had other things in common with me, then we could kick it off. But that wouldn't really count as 'opposites'. Opposites CAN attract, but there'd be a LOT of compromise on both sides, and neither side would be completely happy and at ease with the relationship. I guess unless they were extremely care free, and didn't let the views that appear completely nonsensical, and illogical, affect their views on one another..

OK, in typing that out, I've made a bit of a discovery. I suppose it it possible, but it'd take the perfect combination of personal attributes between the two. But I do think that many of the recorded cases of it working out were likely due to sex-based relationships.

I don't think either sides are doing a lot of romance in 2022 to be fair

Well, there is that.. But I meant, Corona aside. Not a lot of anything happening anywhere since that damned virus shut the world down..

there is a pushed agenda that women should be romanced and men should be tolerated.

So it's like that over in the UK as well eh? I've been tempted to include the UK when I speak of societal/political differences from other parts of the world, like India or Mexico. But in all honesty, I'm not nearly aware enough of the societal differences between here and there. I tend to assume that the UK is pretty much going in the same direction as Can/US, in being a first world country run on platform of capitalism. But I've seen some UK shows that poke fun at Can/US politics/social behavior, and I've also heard that the government there cares more about the people, like, by giving homeless people free housing, as opposed to handing out tickets to homeless people that sleep on public benches.

I do certainly find myself interested to learn more about the mainstream differences in other lesser talked about parts of the world, like Russia, and the UK.

I talked to this dude online for a while from Russia, but the forum that we were on was suddenly shut down and I lost contact with him. He was an older fellow with some surprising viewpoints on communism. I made me wonder if communism was really as bad as people say. I mean, all I'd ever heard before that, was about how bad it was, but the only opinions I had before that point were that of the countries that were against communist Russia. I don't imagine the opinions of a lot of the poor people in Russia were broadcast too much.

in fact if someone doesn't make you feel seen and well... ultimately heard, are they even worth it?

Nope. In-fact, the one official relationship I had in my life, I broke it off with them for exactly that reasoning. Though tbh, I have questioned that decision from time to time whilst pondering in my loneliness. It's a tough one.. I wasn't as happy as I could be, but at least there was someone I could hug. I do miss that.. It's not about sex (we only did that a few times within a few years), it just feels nice to be embraced by someone..

Side note; that's another thing I don't get in the mainstream media.. Couples about to leave one another (to go to a thing), or reuniting, and the first thing they do is mash their faces into one another (as if they were trying to form a singular entity..). Hugging is a much more meaningful embrace. You don't need to enter the person in order to connect with them emotionally, and ideally, shouldn't need to. Plus it's just gross to watch.. And grosser to listen to.. I really wish they wouldn't insist on close up audio in those scenes..

"that girl"

Not sure what you mean by that. I mean, not enough for context. Like, as in "Eww.. It's "that girl"..." or "O M G, it's totally "that girl", I'd like to be with her!"

As for everything else, you deserve that and more

Thank you. While it's difficult to derive much meaning from this, since for all you know I could be a child serial killer (for the record, I'm not). But it is the kinda thing that guys should hear a lot more in society. I mean, it really works in a negative way against one's self perspective, when anytime a dude (especially white dude) makes a legitimate complaint; they're called entitled, or told to get over it, or told they don't deserve anything, or somehow it gets warped into a twisted concept of them being a misogynist for thinking they deserve anything.

Yea, in Can/US, the gender politics are definitely ******.

 

[xephier102]

But this basically sounds like romance is just a tool used at the beginning of a relationship. Apparently couples that have been together for 30+ years have no use of it?

Yea, I'll fall on my sword for that one. That's actually my bad for the OP though, as I did intend it to mean initialization romance, like the kind everyone knows of from Romeo & Juliette.

5 pages in and you have people saying the same things over and over and over. If you don't get it by now and are arguing with people that actually DO get it.

Just because the majority believes something doesn't make it true (Nazi Germany happened, slavery happened, at one point the majority thought the earth was flat). Society has been groomed to believe that sex=love for as long as I can remember. I've had countless people act surprised when I was in my 20's and told them that I had not had sex yet. If you're thinking more about sex than you are about the intellectual bonds that you share with a person; that's just twisted.. When you think about someone that you 'love', the first thoughts should be about the things that you share, fun/quirky times you've had with them .etc. Not just mashing bodies together..

You can screw someone that you love, but screwing them, is in no way a sign that you love them; hence the separation between romance and sex.

Though you do seem to have a desire to insult others...

I don't pander to precious snowflakes. I tell it like it is. If others choose to feel insulted, then that's on them. But this over-focus on sex in relationships (and in general), is doing far more damage (to society) than I could in a thousand lifetimes (given they were all lived in the same time period). So I do get a bit brash with my wording when people insist on defending such a barbaric mentality.

What the hell even made you think that this was what I was saying?

Well, that is a part of sex, even (relatively speaking), one of the more 'romantic' parts, as it is more selfless than the typical missionary. Though obviously I was taking it to the extreme, and being a bit humorous in my example. Either way, sex = biology, romance is something else.

Does this not suggest "everyone learns from the media?" Even if you learn indirectly...?

You said 'social knowledge' not 'learns from'. Much of what's in the mainstream media for 'social knowledge' hits the trash bin in my head long before it gets near my social knowledge database. Overall, I think most learn from it, but some choose not to follow it. I just refuse to use the term 'everyone' in regards to that; as logically speaking, there are probably some people that haven't come into connection with mainstream society, or their social norms. Like people born and raised in certain cults.

So... now the argument is EVERYTHING is Media???

No, I said religion is/was media. There was no TV's back then (when religion was invented), but there was theater. Church just a form of entertainment with an agenda. So yes, I'd say that it classifies as much, as 'media' as a movie theater or play would.

And yes, I would say that a person's culture is largely defined by their history. Take black culture for instance, largely defined by the plight of slavery.

And my point around politics (as in the government) is that it doesn't really have much affect on people in Can/US in terms of social behavior, besides petty squabbles over who's chosen to be the current four year figurehead.

It's hard to shake the things that get dumped on you as a kid.

If you follow them without question, sure.. As much as I may not display it on these forums, I question everything I think and know. Yea.. There's some drawbacks to that systematic thought process, like forgetting whether or not to reduce heat on the burner after putting KD into the pot.. But overall, I think it's a worthwhile way of thinking. I wasn't raised by strict religious people, or put into any form of religion-run schools, but I did learn religion from a very early age. I had my teacher read me bible verses and talk religion with me when I was five. And the first job I had was run by heavily religious folks.

I guess I can't really compare to your situation, which would have probably been more cult-like, in brainwashing the kid to believe. But I was never told by anyone, that it wasn't real, and always had my doubts, as there was complete lack of evidence, and countless contradictions. Truthfully though, I have a hard time comparing my way of thinking, to those around me; as I have spent most of my life in complete solitude (a couple traumatizing incidents at the age of five, caused me to avoid people for most of my life, and Corona has kept it that way, even though I want connection now..).

I have been my biggest teacher; taking in only the most logical bits of influence from the world around me, and discarding the things that don't make logical sense. This is a large part of why I see my knowledge as somewhat superior to many others. As it has not been so tainted by the mainstream, or steered by the agendas of others.

As you put it with your religion; it can be difficult to see clearly when you've got ingrained teachings attempting to steer you from logic, reasoning, and common sense.

 

[xephier102]

Beyond that, how many people really let go of their beliefs as they get older? Even if you do, it doesn't change what some one else believes and therefore the interactions you have with that person are still influenced even in just the smallest way by their beliefs.

My main point with that, is that religion isn't an in your face thing the way it was 100+, or even 50 years ago. People that aren't religious in Can/US aren't typically called heretics, blasphemers .etc, anymore. Nor are they shunned by their community for not being religious. Few religions may be exceptions to those though, and some cults. But it's not mainstream in that sense anymore.

The level of influence that religion has on society and social behavior has changed radically over the last 50ish years or so. And most often, unless someone happens to be wearing a cross, or be praying on a mat, or seen in church, or trying to recruit people, you couldn't even tell if they were religious without asking.

Now when I say politics... I can understand why you would go to politicians. But I really wasn't referring to that. I was referring more towards values. What things do you find important? They are often adopted and manipulated by political parties in order to influence voters. Or do you really think that anyone in Washington cares if some girl in Nebraska has an abortion, or gets a conceal and carry permit? But the individual people in the US have been told "these are the issues" So sometimes people care about them and it can influence whether or not they interact well or not. If their "values" line up with yours or don't. Also political parties... I mean... look at any comment thread on the internet. Some one always makes it about politics. Perhaps these are not "objective" thinkers... I agree with that assumption, but it still influences the interactions they have with others.

Just reading as I go, so the above was written before reading this, but yea.. politics can have influence in social interactions, but even in that sense, it's become somewhat taboo over the years to even discuss politics openly. The world is leaning more and more towards censorship.. It's a dangerous path imho.. Avoid a few heated arguments, but allow those in charge to do w.e they want.. But yea.. I don't think the people in Washington care if a girl in Washington has an abortion, then leave's it on her ex's doorstep, so long as it doesn't affect them..

But yea, ya got a point there. I suppose politics would be the next largest influence to the mainstream media. Twenty years ago, I'd even say they're arguably close. But now everyone owns a smartphone (also the (mostly) universally affordable streaming services)and with the censorship mentality.. I still believe mainstream media has the biggest hold.

arguing that it's hard to catch some one when they're falling when literally every female lead in any romance falls in some way and gets caught... just proves how unrealistic it is.

OK.. So you've got that trope, but the trope of most people putting strong importance into both sex and alcohol (despite how useless, disgusting, not needed, and even destructive, alcohol is); those are pretty solid in my argument for the influence that the mainstream media has on people. Most shows, even a lot of children's shows, are just running commercials for the consumption of alcohol. I don't see that as a coincidence.

I believe I said they make it look like "EVERYONE ONLY EVER wants to get laid"... I didn't say no one does. Also, I don't believe Tinder counts as "EVERYONE".

I believe I've made it clear, that I don't work with absolutes.

Quick Google search reveals,
"Does anyone still use Tinder 2021?


When it comes to how many people use Tinder, it has 57 million users as of 2021. There are a couple of other websites within this category if you'd like options. For instance, there's Bumble which had over 12 million active users per month in 2020."

I'd hardly say 57 million is a number not worth bringing to light under the given context. I mean, that's over 10X the number of people that have died from Corona, a virus that's rocked the world for the past 2 years (currently 5.5 mil).

ok, I agree with that... to a point. I like to think that most people can tell the difference between reality and fantasy... but that's not an argument, more like optimistic thinking.

Yes, but I'm not talking about flying rocket boots, and magical fairy tales. Regardless of how well we're raised/taught by our parents regarding the nuances of social interaction, there's always going to be unanswered questions, and unforeseen circumstances. And when those come into play, if TV, movies .etc, fill a knowledge gap that isn't being filled with anything else, that knowledge will often take precedence. And sex is one thing that parents categorically fail to teach their kids about, because of the sexual repression within society. So that is one thing that they have a much higher chance of picking up from the mainstream media.

And to clarify, I am against sexual repression, and of it being seen as 'gross' or 'abnormal' in any way, but I still don't see that it's healthy (relationship wise) to use as a synonym for romance.

The parental point... I don't disagree with what you said, however I believe children learn more from watching their parents than anything their parents might say to them. Sort of a subconscious actions over words sort of thing.

Can't disagree with that. I stopped believing my mother was 'sorry' after the umpteenth time she smacked me around..

But to claim that only pretty people get in relationships... doesn't explain ANY of the couples I've ever seen.

That's just silly though.. Think about how many ugly people there are, that are alone, compared to the relatively few couples you've seen.. Most of them being men, since (as previously discussed), men are the ones that generally have to initiate relationships. And that confidence falls off pretty fast when your looks are in the ******* (and you've got a speech flaw, and you lack mainstream mentality..). Yea, friends wouldn't even be an issue for me if I had mainstream mentality. If I was into booze, sports, ****s, and cars, then findin un-picky dudes to hang out with, would be like picking any needle outta a giant stack of needles.

Yes there are certain features that are "universally" acknowledged as attractive, but again personal taste has a big part to play in what each individual person finds attractive.

If I was to put up pictures of a physically unattractive person, beside a clearly attractive individual, then post the question of which one the ladies would prefer to date (answers being anonymous to dissuade guilt/vanity based feedback), I would be willing to put big money on the attractive one being chosen by a landslide. Do you honestly think 'catfishing' is a thing because only a few people care about looks?

Or a 70 year old?

When I'm 60, maybe. But there's more than looks to consider when dating someone of that age. I think most people would prefer to avoid choosing a life-mate that could drop dead 30-40+ years before them, just from old age.

Then looks and sexual attraction have something to do with it.

You've only learned that from your time in modern society. To see things as I do, you have to go outside of the box, and consider how much you would care about looks, if you'd never been taught to do so. Or even look back to your earliest days of youth, and consider how much you thought of looks when you were five. Love is something that develops through intellectual interaction/stimulus. Sex is just a biological bonus. But to believe in biologically induced behavior, is just ignorant in this day and age (with the knowledge and diversity available to us).

I think if anything proves this point in the strongest manner, it's furies. There's people out there that legit want to have sex with humanoid dragons, lol.. Explain the biological drive in that one. XD

 

[ardour]

You've only learned that from your time in modern society. To see things as I do, you have to go outside of the box, and consider how much you would care about looks, if you'd never been taught to do so. Or even look back to your earliest days of youth, and consider how much you thought of looks when you were five. Love is something that develops through intellectual interaction/stimulus. Sex is just a biological bonus. But to believe in biologically induced behavior, is just ignorant in this day and age (with the knowledge and diversity available to us).

I think if anything proves this point in the strongest manner, it's furies. There's people out there that legit want to have sex with humanoid dragons, lol.. Explain the biological drive in that one. XD

Then date another man. Go out there and find a big bear to love you for your mind.

You're being absurd, mental illness that applies to a tiny number of people doesn't disprove biologically determined orientation or instincts hardcoded to perpetuate the species.

Notice how 'averaged' faces look more attractive than average people and have similar proportions regardless of ethnicity. https://www.artfido.com/this-is-what-the-average-person-looks-like-in-each-country/ Symmetry (generally) equates to better immunity and higher likelihood of healthy offspring.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Saying that looks are subjective is like saying 'everyone is a little autistic'. It's ignorant and dismissive of what those that are born with less, have to go through. There is a mainstream ideal of what good looks are, and most people tend to follow that. And that's not just me being self deprecating.. It's a dead to rights fact. look it up on google if you don't believe me. There actually used to be a website on the internet 20sum years back called 'uglypeople.com'.

Being ugly to the mainstream is like being black 50-60 years ago in one of the less (but still) racist neighborhoods, but with one major exception, no one will admit you're black; they'll just try and convince you that it's all in your head.

I mean, like I've said, looks may be subjective, but there is a HUGE lifestyle difference between 1 outta a million people finding you attractive, or 900+k outta a million finding you attractive (Like Tom cruise or somethin).. I mean, if one person outta a million finds you attractive, then the chances of even meeting that person, then of them being single, then of them having similar likes/interests/goals/belief system to yours.. It's pretty damned low.. It'd literally be like winning the lottery, not just because of how good it'd be, but because it'd be nearly impossible.

I mean... i'm confused, I'm not trying to be dismissive, looks are subjective people have such varying tastes. Some people I think... oh no I couldn't.. someone else thinks oh yes I could. Thats just a fact.

As for being black, I don't understand the comparison, being black isn't exactly an opinion.

I agree there is a difference in lifestyle between being a magnet and only attracting a handful of people in your environment. Like thats what I was trying to say, moving from a town to a city changed how I was seen so dramatically, all of a sudden I was "hot"... literally night and day treatment, people wanted to sit with me, it was just strange, I didn't have that attention growing up, so that shapes my outlook on things, I mean im sure it must be different to someone who was always the hot girl. They dont know anything else, but for me, I always felt like being attractive was an achievement, when all I did was move.

A lot of Americans find this, they move to places in South East Asia for example, and all of a sudden they are the hot guys, with their pick. Thats what I mean but it's subjective.

Thank you. While it's difficult to derive much meaning from this, since for all you know I could be a child serial killer (for the record, I'm not). But it is the kinda thing that guys should hear a lot more in society. I mean, it really works in a negative way against one's self perspective, when anytime a dude (especially white dude) makes a legitimate complaint; they're called entitled, or told to get over it, or told they don't deserve anything, or somehow it gets warped into a twisted concept of them being a misogynist for thinking they deserve anything.

Yea, in Can/US, the gender politics are definitely messed.

Sorry I am not the most clear, I meant, I don't think anyone deserves to be seen as ugly by their prospective partner (but they over look it), I just couldn't think of anything worse. However, to be heard and seen that's what everyone deserves from their partner.

 

[dan27]

 

[U-122]

I was thinking to myself the other day, and it occurred to me that although women are typically seen as the emotional, romantic, empathetic caregivers, I can't even think of anything romantic that women are known for in the mainstream.

I'm not just talking about one situational case (you, your brothers GF, a friend of a freind .etc), but anything they're actually known for, to give them that rep. They have lots of romantic stuff done for them, but as best I can recall, it's not like women are typically out there trying to romance men.

They do like to be romanced but it's not like they should gain any positive rep from that, besides being lazy, and entitled.

Though I'm not actually trying to lay offense to women with this thread, I'm just attempting to either uncover, or understand this apparent misconception.

Emotional - yes. The rest is not always true. I have never met anyone like that yet in my life. Everyone i've known are the opposite. Not romantic, zero empathy, not caregivers unless they get paid for it, which is a job which they hate but they have no other choice, because not everyone can do what they enjoy and get paid for it. Women, like you said, feel entitled, want to be pampered, which i wouldn't mind if only i got something similar in return. Nothing. Ever. I'm the empathetic one, i'm the caregiver and everything else giver, i'm romantic. It's always one way. I get nothing like that in return. Not in the past, not presently when i tried to get into a friendzone and nothing more. I get treated like invisible garbage. They condition me to become cold hearted, dead inside, which i already am anyway, to ignore them. It's terrible but i have no other option. Of course there are women who besides being emotional, are also caring and empathetic. They are with other men, not with me.

In the past i was young and dumb, didn't know how things worked. Now reading what other men go through i realized how bad it was for me in the past and now when i go out of my way trying to be good to someone and i get nothing but hate and disrespect back. I'm terrified of the thought of doing it again if i ever come across someone else who will give me time of day.

 

[U-122]

Man relationships are one sided in terms of the effort put in..

Female 'romance' is the woman taking care of herself (hair, makeup, clothes .etc). Male romance is him taking care of her (dates, chocolates .etc)..

The largest amount of selfless effort put out by her is to stick her chest out and talk sexy when she sees a man she wants (most likely due to looks). Or buy him tools when she wants some time to herself. How romantic..

Exactly my experience. One sided. They took care of themselves, i took care of them. Nobody made any effort for me but other women make a lot of effort doing exactly that for men they like, or want to use for whatever reason, and later discard. Observing multiple female neighbors around me. All ride the men carousel. All are the same.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

What's love got to do, got to do with it?
What's love, but a second hand emotion?

If you don't know me by now,
then you'll never ever ever ever know...

 

[xephier102]

mental illness that applies to a tiny number of people

Eh, not sure I'd refer to it as 'mental illness'. You're actually sounding pretty bible thumper, old testement style with comments like that. Homosexuals used to be thought to have mental illness.. imho the only true mental illness where sex is concerned, is from the people that bring pain, and/or violence to the act.

I may not be a furry myself, but people have brains with limitless imagination. So let em fantasize about whatever they want, so long as it hurts no one else.

But i digress, as I have an even stronger evidence of the fallibility of biologically induced behavior. It's simple, free will. We're taught our entire lives, that man falling in love with, and having sex with women is the most normal thing; to the extent that it's been passed as a biological imperative.

And while that may be true for animals; humans have free will, and sex feels good. So if left to our own devices (no societal sway, or rules), we'd **** anything that feels good to ****.

Our minds are infinite, maleble, and easily twisted. That's why we go crazy and animals typically don't.

Knowledge is power but it's also a curse. The less we know, the easier life is. And if our heads were empty enough, then biological imperative would take over. But we'd have to be in a feral state to get to that point.

I mean im sure it must be different to someone who was always the hot girl.

Eh.. your looks didn't change, you always were the 'hot' girl. That's the thing, you're trying to base a comparison that's like the ugly girl turned hot in a movie cliché.

Sorry but it seems clear that you don't know what being actually unattractive is like. It's not something you move away from..


That is basically your story in a nutshell..

To add further clarification, I've lived all over Canada, big cities, small towns, I've never been looked at like I was attractive.

Due to the work men have to go through in order to be accepted by women, there are a lot of men out there that think they're unattractive, even though there's nothing wrong with their looks.

But I'm too objective of a thinker, and ask too many questions to be fooled by that for 35+ years.

Emotional - yes. The rest is not always true. I have never met anyone like that yet in my life. Everyone i've known are the opposite. Not romantic, zero empathy, not caregivers unless they get paid for it, which is a job which they hate but they have no other choice, because not everyone can do what they enjoy and get paid for it. Women, like you said, feel entitled, want to be pampered, which i wouldn't mind if only i got something similar in return. Nothing. Ever. I'm the empathetic one, i'm the caregiver and everything else giver, i'm romantic. It's always one way. I get nothing like that in return. Not in the past, not presently when i tried to get into a friendzone and nothing more. I get treated like invisible garbage. They condition me to become cold hearted, dead inside, which i already am anyway, to ignore them. It's terrible but i have no other option. Of course there are women who besides being emotional, are also caring and empathetic. They are with other men, not with me.

In the past i was young and dumb, didn't know how things worked. Now reading what other men go through i realized how bad it was for me in the past and now when i go out of my way trying to be good to someone and i get nothing but hate and disrespect back. I'm terrified of the thought of doing it again if i ever come across someone else who will give me time of day.

Yea, I feel ya on this. I'm trying to gear myself to stop caring what other people think. I think it's a lot easier said than done though. Like, unless one were a psycho/sociopath.

I mean, it's easy enough on the internet, but I fear that it'll fade once I get back to the real world..

 

[xephier102]

Exactly my experience. One sided. They took care of themselves, i took care of them. Nobody made any effort for me but other women make a lot of effort doing exactly that for men they like, or want to use for whatever reason, and later discard. Observing multiple female neighbors around me. All ride the men carousel. All are the same.

Not all, but many. Most fall into the trap of being mainstream, boring, binary, and superficial.

 

[Finished]

That was a good one and point made! Ha! ha!

Scene From ...... Not Another Teen Movie. I loved that movie. Wow! It came out more then 20 years ago. For others who haven't seen that movie. You should watch it. It pokes fun at all the corny teen movies that were coming out about that time and a little before. You can appreciate the comedy much more if you watch all the other teen movies first though. So there's your goal for this year! Ha! hA! Thanks for posting that Xephier.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Eh.. your looks didn't change, you always were the 'hot' girl. That's the thing, you're trying to base a comparison that's like the ugly girl turned hot in a movie cliché.

Sorry but it seems clear that you don't know what being actually unattractive is like. It's not something you move away from..


That is basically your story in a nutshell..

To add further clarification, I've lived all over Canada, big cities, small towns, I've never been looked at like I was attractive.

Due to the work men have to go through in order to be accepted by women, there are a lot of men out there that think they're unattractive, even though there's nothing wrong with their looks.

But I'm too objective of a thinker, and ask too many questions to be fooled by that for 35+ years.

Yeah, my whole point is I never changed, but in 1 location I was treated like an ogre and another I was treated like I was good looking. My point is, I am not attractive to everyone but that doesn't mean I'm not attractive to anyone. Also, how some men feel about their appearance some women feel too. I know girls that are ginger who think they are ugly for that fact alone due to constant bullying... but they aren't ugly to everyone.

Also, it's harder for men to know, most women do not walk around calling men hot, even if they are...

I am not saying that im sure you're my cup of tea, im just saying im sure you're someones, and that should be comforting if thats truly what you want.

 

[ardour]

Eh, not sure I'd refer to it as 'mental illness'. You're actually sounding pretty bible thumper, old testement style with comments like that. Homosexuals used to be thought to have mental illness.. imho the only true mental illness where sex is concerned, is from the people that bring pain, and/or violence to the act.

I may not be a furry myself, but people have brains with limitless imagination. So let em fantasize about whatever they want, so long as it hurts no one else.

But i digress, as I have an even stronger evidence of the fallibility of biologically induced behavior. It's simple, free will. We're taught our entire lives, that man falling in love with, and having sex with women is the most normal thing; to the extent that it's been passed as a biological imperative.

And while that may be true for animals; humans have free will, and sex feels good. So if left to our own devices (no societal sway, or rules), we'd **** anything that feels good to ****.

Our minds are infinite, maleble, and easily twisted. That's why we go crazy and animals typically don't.

You haven't answered my question though. Would you be willing reassess your "social conditioning" and be open to sexy times with another man? If the answer is no then the argument falls apart.

 

[xephier102]

most women do not walk around calling men hot, even if they are...

Cuz not doing that is called 'civilized'. I mean, it's not exactly appropriate to walk up to somebody you've never met and call them hot (unless you're some douche from the 80s).

But the things people don't say, say a lot more than the things people do say. That is to say, I've learned far more about people from their body language, facial expressions .etc, than I ever have from all that fake BS they try to pile on in order to feign being good people.

Trust me, I'm not your typical 'ugly some places, hot others' type. I'm 41 and been asking questions my entire life, like, long before the internet was even close to being a mainstream thing.

I still remember my group home staff trying to humor me as a kid. And my response being along the lines of "oh yea, name one thing that's attractive about me" and they'd always come back with "you've got nice eyes". The F*kin elephant man probably had nice eyes, but he still ain't winning no beauty contests outside of a monopoly game.

There's a prime example right there. Are you gonna try and tell me that you find the elephant man to be a dead sexy chunk of manmeat? Does he turn your crank? Does that bobblehead left in the microwave too long, look, just do it for you?

I am not saying that im sure you're my cup of tea, im just saying im sure you're someones

Said every woman ever. That's about as comforting as the boss that tries to relieve themself of the guilt trip of firing you, by telling ya that they're offering you a chance to explore new oportunities.

Like, "Ya don't have to go home, but ya can't stay here" lol..

You haven't answered my question though. Would you be willing reassess your "social conditioning" and be open to sexy times with another man? If the answer is no then the argument falls apart.

I win? Lol.. ProTip: I never mentioned the gender of the one person I'd been with.

Explored that side of the fence, not the worst thing ever, but I would prefer a woman. Though tbh, my argument would hardly have fallen apart even if I was a diehard christian homophobe. Cuz that doesn't exactly dismiss the millions of gays currently in existence.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Cuz not doing that is called 'civilized'. I mean, it's not exactly appropriate to walk up to somebody you've never met and call them hot (unless you're some douche from the 80s).

But the things people don't say, say a lot more than the things people do say. That is to say, I've learned far more about people from their body language, facial expressions .etc, than I ever have from all that fake BS they try to pile on in order to feign being good people.

Trust me, I'm not your typical 'ugly some places, hot others' type. I'm 41 and been asking questions my entire life, like, long before the internet was even close to being a mainstream thing.

I still remember my group home staff trying to humor me as a kid. And my response being along the lines of "oh yea, name one thing that's attractive about me" and they'd always come back with "you've got nice eyes". The F*kin elephant man probably had nice eyes, but he still ain't winning no beauty contests outside of a monopoly game.

There's a prime example right there. Are you gonna try and tell me that you find the elephant man to be a dead sexy chunk of manmeat? Does he turn your crank? Does that bobblehead left in the microwave too long, look, just do it for you?


Said every woman ever. That's about as comforting as the boss that tries to relieve themself of the guilt trip of firing you, by telling ya that they're offering you a chance to explore new oportunities.

Like, "Ya don't have to go home, but ya can't stay here" lol..

I didn't really mean in a cat call way to be fair, I just mean, when it comes to compliments from the opposite sex, I am sure women get complimented more. You know you're beautiful as a woman due to men simply telling you... constantly. Sometimes it can get annoying because it happens so much... But yes, that includes unfortunately... cat calling as well, random guys asking if they can pay for your things, to buy you a drink/coffee or simply asking for your number. These are the measure on my level of social attraction anyway cant speak for all the girls.

I've never had to read between the lines, maybe thats an advantage of most men being straight forward.

Strange, honestly, nice eyes are my type, it is completely ridiculous how much eyes mean to me, my friends make fun of me about it. But anyway, I find specific men attractive, it's a very exact science. But I've never been able to attract that man as of yet... I think using someone with a disability is unfair, as even women with disabilities struggle in the dating scene. It is not easy to overlook, however, I saw that the elephant man had a date, so he's doing better than most. He made someone else wanna take a chance, so my opinion should mean to him about as much as his opinion of me means to me... nothing.

Truthfully, my point is, you would probably consider me maybe a 4... at a guess, but I know some guys who consider me a 8... if I just went off your opinion... I'd be crushed. Women do not have some group think ability, we are deffo not all into the same man, just like men have varied taste. I understand though, if you told me this in my hometown I would have said shut up, i'm hideous and thats that.

 

[ardour]

Cuz that doesn't exactly dismiss the millions of gays currently in existence.

You mean the millions with a homosexual orientation they were born with. Most would be offended at the idea they somehow chose that.

 

[xephier102]

Sometimes it can get annoying because it happens so much... But yes, that includes unfortunately... cat calling as well, random guys asking if they can pay for your things, to buy you a drink/coffee or simply asking for your number. These are the measure on my level of social attraction anyway cant speak for all the girls.

Some things are great, but everything needs some level of moderation in order to be enjoyable/acceptable, and the level of balance and moderation in terms of the social behaviorism's in modern society, are drastically out of whack. Women are ogled and sexualized so much, that many of them grow a sense of disgust towards the act of being flirted with by any but the most top-class of men. Whereas many men are so neglected and ignored, as well as well as being treated like their bodies are gross, and should be hidden, and the concept of men as sexual beings is often shamed and demonized.

Just as an example to that last statement; homosexuals still receive a lot of flack, and hate from certain groups, organizations, and individuals throughout society, but men have always (generally speaking) received the harshest criticisms and the most shame for the concept of being gay. Even 20-30 years ago many people would talk lightly about the idea of lesbians, or it being a turnon to a lot of men about lesbians doin their thing while the guy watches. But man on man has always been sharply spoken against; there's even a handful of countries in modern day that still punish acts of homosexuality, with death. And of those counties, a few are notable for specifying 'homosexual acts between males'.

"In Yemen, the law states that unmarried gay men will be punished with 100 whip lashes or one year in prison, but married gay men face death by stoning. Gay women are to be imprisoned for up to three years."

Sorry bout the slight overload of facts, but people on here have a habit of jumping in with their personal stories, while ignoring the harsh realities of this world.

But to the point, men often get what could even be defined as a negative amount of attention (bellow zero). It's bad enough to the extent that a lot of men excuse, or even envy what a lot of women go through; including cat calls, groping, unwanted advances .etc.

So while the women will often view these acts as grotesque, overbearing, annoying .etc. Men would view the same acts (visualizing being done on them), as kind, sensitive, complimentary, shows of affection and of the receivers perceived value to the giver of said actions. And even the concept of a woman raping a man, has been historically laughed off, or dismissed, both legally and socially.

So many of the actions of men that are considered detestable to women, are actually perceived entirely differently by the men whom often receive no attention or affection at all. This is also why it can be dangerous for a woman to accept those advances in a favorable manner. Because when you've received so little attention or affection in your life, then it's easy to interpret "Why, thank you!" /wink /smile, as "I love you, let's get married!".

That's why a lot of men come across as forceful, or "doesn't know when to give up", or why we may appear overly excitable at the initial stages of a relationship. When you're basically treated like a disease your entire life (especially by women), then an extreme reaction is to be expected when seemingly out of nowhere, a woman actually notices you. And to a lot of men, the idea of giving up on that one woman that actually looked in their direction (so to speak), is the same as potentially giving up on the idea of ever finding love.

Cats are the same way. Take one cat, give it all the focus and attention, chase it up and down the hallways, hold onto it every chance you get. Take a second cat and ignore it entirely, don't even look at it. Just go about your day like the cat isn't even there (feed it obviously, otherwise it dies and defeats the purpose of this experiment). The first cat will avoid you at all costs unless it needs food. While the second cat will be all over you, up in your face, headbutting you non-stop. In our society, the first cat represents women, the second represents men.

I saw that the elephant man had a date, so he's doing better than most.

Well, for one, did he really? Or was that just artistic license. Even if he did, that was the 1920's (iirc). So the dating atmosphere was much different back then. A lot of women got with men just so they didn't have to be "working girls". But even if it was the ideal romance scenario, it was still one scenario of millions. The exception to the rule, not the rule itself. Also, if, as you say, people should not be with those that they find physically unattractive, then by that logic, nobody should have ever dated him, as I would be hard-pressed to find anyone that would find that man to be physically attractive.

Truthfully, my point is, you would probably consider me maybe a 4... at a guess, but I know some guys who consider me a 8.

That's one other female-factor which has not been factored in. Make-up. Maybe you're a 4 when you wake in the morning, then an 8 by lunch with your face all done up. Sadly that's another drawback for men when it comes to looks. We can't just slap on a buncha foundation, lipstick, overlay, second coat, eyeliner, eyelash remover, embalming fluid and w.e else, to bring ourselves up several points on the looks scale. And even if we did, and got a woman, she'd probably give us a 'we just catfished her' reaction when she found out.

But even offering the benefit of the doubt on what you're saying. I've already found the perfect girl (I don't mean that in loveblind sorta way, her personality, likes/dislikes, level of acceptance, kindness, life goals, and even looks (as the cherry on top)), and I screwed that up (Or her past did, either way, she ain't talkin to me). So, the chances of lightning striking twice, are pretty damned low.

You mean the millions with a homosexual orientation they were born with. Most would be offended at the idea they somehow chose that.

The world isn't 100% accepting of gays (as mentioned above in some detail), even in modern day. So it's a wonder they attempt to pass it off as something they were born with.. But even that is rubbish.. Who you choose to date or screw is 100% your choice. Who you're turned on by; a lot of factors play into that. If you never even consider the concept of a penis being sexy, then you're not going to be gay. All it takes is to be open minded, and look beyond your teachings, and the passive external pressure from society to be straight. Well, unless you live in a country that kills you for being gay, then in that case, just be straight, lol..

But preference to one sexual aesthetic or the other, are just like any other preference, whether that be music, art, food .etc; you will have a general internal preference, or be open minded to any. But if taking a preference to one or the other, one will gravitate towards the one that they find to be more aesthetically pleasing. Even the concept of sexuality being a lifestyle, is a joke. Just because someone's gay, doesn't mean they have to flail around and talk like Ru Paul.. Or just cuz a dude is straight, doesn't mean he has to fulfill the role of 'manly man'.

That's why there's so much gender confusion these days. Cuz people are just starting to learn all of this, but instead of just embracing it and doing what they want, they insist on labeling everything, and tying an entirely new identity to it..

Like, "sis gender wha...?", Seriously, stop confusing people, and acting like you need their permission to just be yourself, then becoming all offended when people don't want to use your newly invented pronouns. It just adds an entirely new demographic to society, when the ones we have already, barely get along. It's like, society is finally on the cusp of accepting homosexuals, but instead of just leaving it at that, they've gotta add a whole new thing we'll be fighting over for the next thousand years.. Screw progression... >,<

Sorry, I get a bit ranty when pondering the ignorance of mainstream society.. A damned meteorite is gonna come along and smack this planet outta existence, but we'll still be sittin here debating transgender washrooms, instead of inventing a way offa this planet.. /SMH