Why is there so much violence against LGBTQ coming from islam?

[insecure]

As a person who until very recently doubted his sexual preference (just read my initial messages here) living in Belgium I have always wondered why islam is so virulently against LGBTQ, and it also made me anxious.

I am not saying that every muslim is violent, of course.
I just see that if you look at the countries in which it is unsafe, to the point of life threatening to visit when you are gay, they are mostly muslim-dominated countries, often having the shariah implemented.

As it is not allowed to compare religions apparently, I decided to open this separate topic, so this is specifically about islam.
I think it is important.
Although in the end I came to the conclusion that I am not a homosexual, the fear of violence against me was an extra hurdle on the path of self-acceptance and the coming out process itself.

I live in Belgium, and although this is in the list of safest countries (placed 17th according to this guide : https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex_2023.pdf) to be LGBTQ, still there is regular violence against that community, often verbal, often physical as well.

So where does this violence come from?
Why is islam so violent towards LGBTQ?

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Violence comes from violent people, not Islam.

Violence comes from hate/anger, which come from fear, which often (perhaps always?) comes from ignorance.

An organism will generally respond to a threat or perceived threat, by fighting, running away, or freezing. If the perceived threat is not actually a threat, the only way to dispel the initial fear, is through understanding.

It is more difficult to use reasoning and cognition, when one is fearful, or angry. So, I posit, that, people who are primarily concerned with basic survival, have less time to reason, grow, and learn. They are more concerned with, where will food/shelter/clothing/etc.. come from, than with, 'how does my neighbor feel?'

Plus, it's very hot / arid in the middle east, generally. I think the high heat just makes people tend towards anger more often. Look at Australia and Arizona... All the bugs are venomous. Survival is just harder in arid regions. So, there are simply a larger number of threat situations, and, probably, thusly, less time for the mind to relax and use higher cognitive functions.
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I just took a look at your link. All the most tolerant countries, are colder regions, except for australia, but australia was settled by europeans (who are genetically adapted to that environment for thousands upon thousands of years, and could afford to import prosperity from their homelands, and thus, have less to concern themselves with survival threats, on the whole).

The least tolerant countries are all hot as hell, except Russia; but, I think Russia has a lot of ethnic ties with middle eastern ancestry, in various ways, culturally, economically, historically, etc..
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I'm sure my theory has holes in it, but, for the most part, it seems that geographically arid, hot, and tough to survive in areas, are the least tolerant.
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Or perhaps it's more of a function of the level of difficulty, a geographic environment places upon people to survive. An opulent and thriving people, have less to be angry/fearful about in general, and therefore, perhaps tolerance is easier to maintain, as there is more time for cognitive pursuits. And by coincidence, it's generally more difficult to survive in extremely arid or extremely cold regions; until a certain level of socioeconomic development has been reached.
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And if we look at the sparticus link, we can see that, the majority of the most intolerant American states, are more rural, where people primarily subsist off farming, ranching, etc.. The population densities are smaller. Less big cities. Less economic variety. And consequently, less frequency and exchange of new ideas, higher learning, and more difficulty during economic stress, due to less economic flexibility.
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All of that, again, basically ties into a combination of factors that contribute to the level of difficulty a geographic area presents towards one's survival, and how that effects the mind. Opulence, and thriving survival conditions, combined with varieties of opportunity and thought, make for minds that are more flexible in their ability to approach differing ideas.
---
Who knows?

 

[insecure]

Hmm, that theory is not really convincing.
Sure, hot temperatures can make people less tolerant (they also make you sleepy, and take it a bit more easy when working), but you can also become less tolerant by the books you read.
Most of those least tolerant countries are islamic, and the least tolerant are those where the shariah is applied.
So it looks like the deeper the integration with islam goes, the more anti-LGBTQ laws and attitudes become.
But even then, take my own country (Belgium) as an example, this is certainly not a country that is dominated by high temperatures.
Even her there is lots of intolerance coming from that side.
Just an example: recently schools had a day in which they pleaded for tolerance (rainbow theme).
A video was posted in which pupils were shouting Alouah Akbar in response in a very threatening way.
The authenticity of the sound on the video was disputed, but fact checked and turned out to be genuine.

Belgium has laws that permit gay marriages, and protects the rights of LGBTQ.
So you cannot blame this on the climate, nor on the legislation.

PS: I am not saying all muslims will act violently, but when seeing images like that it scares me, even though in the end I found out that I am not gay.
I still sympathise with people who are in search of their own sexuality.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Well you just said it: "Belgium has laws that permit gay marriages, and protects the rights of LGBTQ."

The Abrahamic monotheistic faiths probably have their roots in the diaspora out of Egypt. Judaism is the original faith from which Christianity and Islam come from. There's Zoroastrianism, etc.. which was also in the middle east, etc..

There are hints that Christianity was influenced by Eastern thought (before it became a cult and consequently a religion).

Christianity was largely adopted by Romans, and these were an opulent and expansive, and thus war-like people.

And the evolution from Judaism into Islam, was largely probably a consequence of those people shifting from a minority, to an opulent expansive, conquering majority. And we see that, because, unlike Judaism, Christianity and Islam, like Judaism, claim their is only one god, but unlike Judaism, Islam and Christianity seek to convert others (conversion is a requirement as a function of a conquering peoples, as disloyal subjects are harder to control (conquer the mind, conquer the people).

So though the Romans and Eastern Europeans in generally, have been a very war-like people, their opulence as a consequent function of their expanding societies, provided their citizenry, again, with more opulent conditions: more economic, socio, ethnic, philosophical, varietal conditions.

And we see again, during the dark-ages, the Catholic church brought to us the Inquisition, and high levels of intolerance, fear, war, anger, distrust, and suspicion, etc..

 

[okidoke]

An excerpt from the Australian National Imam's Council, which would reflect the standpoint of Muslims worldwide.

"Islam’s position on homosexuality has always been clear and perspicuous from the time of the revelation of the Quran to the Prophet Mohammad, 1,400 years ago, to this very day. The Islamic perspective is also consistent with Judaic and Biblical perspectives as stipulated in the holy scriptures.

From the Islamic standpoint, homosexuality is a forbidden action; a major sin and anyone who partakes in it is considered a disobedient servant to Allah that will acquire His displeasure and disapproval. This is clearly stated in the three main sources of the Shariah: The Quran, the Sunnah, and the consensus of all scholars, which extends from the time of the Prophet till today. There has never been any debate or discussion regarding this viewpoint amongst the scholars, past or present, simply because the matter was always comprehensive and immutable."

 

[insecure]

There has never been any debate or discussion regarding this viewpoint amongst the scholars, past or present, simply because the matter
was always comprehensive and immutable."

That last part is the point, and there is where the violence comes from.
First, that muslims believe that islam is not just for muslims, but for everyone.
Second, that it is the literal word and there is no discussion on it.
That is a dangerous combination.

 

[okidoke]

That last part is the point, and there is where the violence comes from.
First, that muslims believe that islam is not just for muslims, but for everyone.
Second, that it is the literal word and there is no discussion on it.
That is a dangerous combination.

Agreed.

 

[insecure]

Well you just said it: "Belgium has laws that permit gay marriages, and protects the rights of LGBTQ."

The government tries to protect those rights, and tries to get a climate of acceptance, that is why it is shocking when you see groups of muslims trying to attack those rights, like in the case where they were shouting Alloa Akbar in the playground when it was a rainbow day.

I don't agree with the rest of what you say, it is too general, but anyway, the other topic was closed because it was not allowed to compare religions, so I'm avoiding this here.

My question is: why is there so little positive evolution in islam when these days the world is a global place, and everyone comes into contact with all kinds of cultures and religions?
I think the fact that they consider the words of their prophet to be immutable the cause.
It does not allow for a reinterpretation.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

The government tries to protect those rights, and tries to get a climate of acceptance, that is why it is shocking when you see groups of muslims trying to attack those rights, like in the case where they were shouting Alloa Akbar in the playground when it was a rainbow day.

I don't agree with the rest of what you say, it is too general, but anyway, the other topic was closed because it was not allowed to compare religions, so I'm avoiding this here.

My question is: why is there so little positive evolution in islam when these days the world is a global place, and everyone comes into contact with all kinds of cultures and religions?
I think the fact that they consider the words of their prophet to be immutable the cause.
It does not allow for a reinterpretation.

As I stated before:
Islam is a direct descendant of the Abrahamic tradition.
The middle eastern region is very demanding, geographically. Survival is more difficult, which means less time for philosophy and introspection, and more time spent trying to survive.

We can see historically, that Islam, had a period of prosperity, in which it spread through out the regions, and kings went-a-conquering. That's why we have Muslim Uygers, and Islam in India, Turkey, etc.. etc..

But just like with Rome, this period of prosperity ended, and the dark ages came (times of survival crunch).

So we have a geographically difficult region to thrive in, an Abrahamic descendant faith that views homosexuality as immoral, has very strong and ingrained traditions and taboos, and a very recent diaspora from several middle eastern countries due to wars and instabilities in the region (hence migrations into Europe).

So what do these immigrants take with them? Economic hardship, from countries that were already economically and geographically disadvantaged for the last several hundreds of years, especially recently. And they take their religion with them. People seek asylum for various reasons, but, they generally want a better life, and or to escape persecution, or war, etc..

First generation immigrants will not be adapted to their new environment. Islam seeks to convert, not be converted. Second generation will be adapted to a certain degree, but, will be subject to the approvals and disapproval of their first generation parents. Third generation will be more adapted, and so and so forth.

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In America we have those Southern Baptists that used to say all sorts of horrible stuff and protest, etc.. They do this because they are afraid and feel threatened. They are afraid and feel threatened because of their ignorance. And their ignorance is often a function of environment (lack of exposure to a variety of ideas in youth, in school, at work, etc..)
---

The Muslim faith was born, molded, and created to suit a specific people, that were specific to a particular geography, with a particular culture, and a particular way of life. Like Judaism, Islam is often very rigid, in it's traditions and taboos. Christianity is a bit different, in that, it was adopted by Romans, who were historically, poly-theistic, much more recently, than the ancestors of Zorastrianism, Islam, Judaism, etc..
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As far as I know, every particular religion thinks it's the, 'right religion.' Just as you think your thoughts are right, and I think my thoughts are right, and Muslims think they are right, and Christians think they are right, and Jewish folk think they are right, etc..

Yet, there are Jewish folk, Christians, and Muslims, who can and do not only tolerate, but accept, or are homosexual. But it's more likely a larger homosexual population will develop under societies and cultures, that have the means and circumstances that foster a more tolerant and accepting mindset (they aren't mad hungry, they have access to clean water and sanitation and housing and education and opportunities and a variety of ideas and viewpoints in an environment that encourages debate and critical thinking).
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The world over, right now, however, is entering economic and demographic hardship, and therefore, people are more prone to anger, and inflexibility of mind, thought, emotion, and will tend to fall back on spirituality to help deal with things that are beyond their control.

And a good scape-goat is always a way to blow off some steam, when life isn't going as you'd like it to. Minorities make the best scape-goats, because they don't have the numbers to put up a fight against the majority.
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I can't really argue my point anymore than that. And don't really want to either.

A: This thread is unlikely to make anyone who is intolerant any more tolerant.
B: To the extent that it possibly could, I can't add any more to it, to that affect.

 

[insecure]

We can see historically, that Islam, had a period of prosperity, in which it spread through out the regions, and kings went-a-conquering. That's why we have Muslim Uygers, and Islam in India, Turkey, etc.. etc..

The conquering started with Muhammed himself, you can see that on wikipedia, just as an example :

In December 629, after eight years of intermittent fighting with Meccan tribes, Muhammad gathered an army of 10,000 Muslim converts and marched on the city of Mecca.

So the violence did not start after his death, he was violent himself.

First generation immigrants will not be adapted to their new environment. Islam seeks to convert, not be converted. Second generation will be adapted to a certain degree, but, will be subject to the approvals and disapproval of their first generation parents. Third generation will be more adapted, and so and so forth.

Not true, the example I gave is from schoolchildren in 2023, they were the ones shouting Alloa Akbar on that rainbow day.
Those children were born here, and many of them will be 3rd or 4th generation.
The belief that upon each generation they will become less radical and more integrated does not correspond with reality, just look at the young people who went to join ISIS.

As far as I know, every particular religion thinks it's the, 'right religion.' Just as you think your thoughts are right, and I think my thoughts are right, and Muslims think they are right, and Christians think they are right, and Jewish folk think they are right, etc..

As long as you don't force others to your way of thinking there is no problem in that.

But it's more likely a larger homosexual population will develop under societies and cultures, that have the means and circumstances that foster a more tolerant and accepting mindset (they aren't mad hungry, they have access to clean water and sanitation and housing and education and opportunities and a variety of ideas and viewpoints in an environment that encourages debate and critical thinking).

Saudi Arabia is one of the countries most dangerous for homosexuals.
You can hardly say they are dying of hunger over there.
But islam rules, and the education which you recognise is important also teaches a radical form of islam...

 

[CenotaphGirl]

I wonder… i’m not anti LGBTQ or anything in the slightest, but can one just simply disagree with a practice and not be ignorant? Like can I disagree with incest and be completely sound of mind and educated? I just think in almost every religion it states a straightforward stance on homosexuality. If you have faith and choose to follow that I don’t see that as ignorant personally. Just something you believe in. Maybe that was a logical rule for the time but not all time… same with the ages women used to get married, as time shifts humans adapt and shift.

I think this thread is stating a coincidence but truthfully the Caribbean is just as dangerous for homosexuals and most are Christian.

People of islamic faith often come from strict cultural guidelines. Its not about starving its about faith and culture, not just on that one issue either, women are expected to cover up, remain virgins, sexual politics are huge in Islam in a range of ways. They probably face more violence there as that is how they often choose to deal with sexual politics. With violence on all offences. Doesn't really seem to discriminate in that regard.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

I still say it's just the heat. Makes everyone uncomfortable and ornery, so you gotta make more strict rules.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

---Below is copied from the above post---

We can see historically, that Islam, had a period of prosperity, in which it spread through out the regions, and kings went-a-conquering. That's why we have Muslim Uygers, and Islam in India, Turkey, etc.. etc..

The conquering started with Muhammed himself, you can see that on wikipedia, just as an example :

In December 629, after eight years of intermittent fighting with Meccan tribes, Muhammad gathered an army of 10,000 Muslim converts and marched on the city of Mecca.

So the violence did not start after his death, he was violent himself.

First generation immigrants will not be adapted to their new environment. Islam seeks to convert, not be converted. Second generation will be adapted to a certain degree, but, will be subject to the approvals and disapproval of their first generation parents. Third generation will be more adapted, and so and so forth.

Not true, the example I gave is from schoolchildren in 2023, they were the ones shouting Alloa Akbar on that rainbow day.
Those children were born here, and many of them will be 3rd or 4th generation.
The belief that upon each generation they will become less radical and more integrated does not correspond with reality, just look at the young people who went to join ISIS.

As far as I know, every particular religion thinks it's the, 'right religion.' Just as you think your thoughts are right, and I think my thoughts are right, and Muslims think they are right, and Christians think they are right, and Jewish folk think they are right, etc..

As long as you don't force others to your way of thinking there is no problem in that.

But it's more likely a larger homosexual population will develop under societies and cultures, that have the means and circumstances that foster a more tolerant and accepting mindset (they aren't mad hungry, they have access to clean water and sanitation and housing and education and opportunities and a variety of ideas and viewpoints in an environment that encourages debate and critical thinking).

Saudi Arabia is one of the countries most dangerous for homosexuals.
You can hardly say they are dying of hunger over there.
But islam rules, and the education which you recognise is important also teaches a radical form of islam...

---My response follows-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So is the conquering a result of the religion? Or is the religion a result of the need to conquer?

Are you saying 100% of all 3rd and 4th generation Muslim immigrants in your country are 100% intolerant of LGTBQ/etc.?

What are the present and historical geographic conditions of Saudi Arabia?

What do you mean by saying, "the education which you recognize is important also teaches a radical form of islam'?

What does it mean to be radical? Do you mean violently intolerant? If so, what are some examples of violent intolerance that are not Islamic?

Are there violently intolerant atheists? Was Communism violently intolerant of other viewpoints and ways of life? Was national socialism violently intolerant? Were the Christian missionaries violently intolerant? Were the conquistadors violently intolerant? Was Operation Condor and other's like it, violently intolerant?

Is it preferable to not experience violent intolerance? And if so, what are the possible remedies for intolerance? What might be the causes of intolerance?

Perhaps a constant stream of bad news on the tele, radio, internet?
Perhaps violent intolerance can lead to more violent intolerance?
Perhaps fear of what we don't understand?
Perhaps lack of opportunity?
Perhaps fear of losing something?
Perhaps having lost something?
Perhaps wanting to belong?


Given the widespread nature of violent intolerance through the worlds history and presently, perhaps it would make more sense, to try and discover the nations, ideologies, and belief systems, that have little to no history of violent intolerance. I'm not really greatly aware of what those nations, ideologies, and belief systems might be, if they are there at all, but..

What makes for peace?
What makes for tolerance?
What makes for acceptance?
What makes for understanding?
What makes for love?

Will I have to give this thread a break so I can get some peace of mind?
What is the average air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

 

[SquareBin]

Islam, like many religions, is taught mostly from parents to children, and from community's upbringing of the young

unlike (some forms of) Christianity, Islam is less flexible when it comes to the Faith and beliefs. The book is the book, and you must follow the book. there's no room for doubt. If you doubt the book, you read it wrong.

The book says "men who have anal *** must be executed to death". By the simple fact that gay men are generally associated with LGBT+, Islam sees LGBT+ as a source of misguidance, away from the book (for tons of other reasons too, but I simplify)

I'm bisexual, if my muslim coworkers knew they would look at me sideways.

Also hello from Belgium brother

 

[insecure]

I wonder… i’m not anti LGBTQ or anything in the slightest, but can one just simply disagree with a practice and not be ignorant? Like can I disagree with incest and be completely sound of mind and educated? I just think in almost every religion it states a straightforward stance on homosexuality. If you have faith and choose to follow that I don’t see that as ignorant personally. Just something you believe in. Maybe that was a logical rule for the time but not all time… same with the ages women used to get married, as time shifts humans adapt and shift.

I still think that one of the biggest reasons they are against homosexuality is the fear that people will not reproduce, so the faith and its power will not grow fast enough.
Personally, I don't care what people believe in itself, it is how they act upon it.

Incest is of course a different case, in the long term that leads to biological problems (genetic issues).

 

[insecure]

So is the conquering a result of the religion? Or is the religion a result of the need to conquer?

That is a strange question. Muhammad invented islam, and he was a violent man who conquered territories.
Also, I don't see what difference it makes.
It would make a difference if muhammad would never have been part of any conquering, and that only started with his followers.

Are you saying 100% of all 3rd and 4th generation Muslim immigrants in your country are 100% intolerant of LGTBQ/etc.?

Of course not.
Why do you make this such a black or white discussion?
Fact is that first generation often came to work here.
They worked in the coal mines, for instance.
All they wanted was a better life for themselves and for their children.
The next generations got that better life, which gave them more time to think about their culture and religion.
It is the youngest generation that joined ISIS, not the old folks...

What are the present and historical geographic conditions of Saudi Arabia?

I am sure you can look that up, I am not here to answer all your questions.
Fact is that Saudi Arabia is a rich country, that there is air conditioning, so the excuse "it's the heat" does not apply.

What do you mean by saying, "the education which you recognize is important also teaches a radical form of islam'?

That wahabism is a radical form of islam.

What does it mean to be radical? Do you mean violently intolerant? If so, what are some examples of violent intolerance that are not Islamic?

According to the rules we're not supposed to compare religion.
Apparently these rules are only applied in one direction...
I am not going to engage in a dictionary type of discussion for every word you want to look up.

Are there violently intolerant atheists?

As if numbers are unimportant.
I gave you a list of countries most unsafe for the LGBTQ community.
The most unsafe countries are predominantly islamic.
It is a fact.

Was Communism violently intolerant of other viewpoints and ways of life?

We are not discussing political systems. It looks like you want to drag any subject you can find into it to make us forget about the topic at hand.

Perhaps a constant stream of bad news on the tele, radio, internet?

That explains why Muhammad started waging war and conquering territories...

Now there is some saying about the number of questions one can ask and the number of answers one can give...

 

[insecure]

Islam, like many religions, is taught mostly from parents to children, and from community's upbringing of the young

unlike (some forms of) Christianity, Islam is less flexible when it comes to the Faith and beliefs. The book is the book, and you must follow the book. there's no room for doubt. If you doubt the book, you read it wrong.

True, that is also my experience.
As soon as they have a bit of an own interpretation, they are quickly frowned upon (at best).

The book says "men who have anal *** must be executed to death". By the simple fact that gay men are generally associated with LGBT+, Islam sees LGBT+ as a source of misguidance, away from the book (for tons of other reasons too, but I simplify)

I'm bisexual, if my muslim coworkers knew they would look at me sideways.

Also hello from Belgium brother

Just to be clear, when I came on this forum I was still doubting my sexuality, hence the nickname 'insecure'.
Since then I made some progress and now I do think I am hetero, but I still sympathise with the LGBTQ's and with people having doubts about their sexuality.

 

[TropicalStarfish]

@insecure I don't make this a black and white discussion. My replies are quite lengthy and colorful, heh. The title of your thread (this thread) is: "Why is There so Much Violence Towards LGBTQ Coming From Islam?" And this thread was started shortly after the closing of this one.

I don't much care for selective quoting; and long back-and-forths like this, are vulnerable to becoming muddled, because there is a lot of history involved, in the back-and-fourths replies, and the context can get lost, while personal feelings grow.

As far as I know, in continued answer to your question: perhaps we must be tolerant of intolerance. Beyond that, I struggle with how to deal with intolerance myself. It's a difficult problem..

 

[insecure]

-I don't make this a black and white discussion. My replies are quite lengthy and colorful, heh. The title of your thread (this thread) is: "Why is There so Much Violence Towards LGBTQ Coming From Islam?" And this thread was started shortly after the closing of this one.

I don't much care for selective quoting, and long back-and-forths like this, are bound to become muddled, because there is a lot of history involved, in the back-and-fourths, and the context gets lost, while personal feelings grow.

As far as I am concerned you are using two strategies.
On the one hand black and white, where you exaggerate what I say to make it look ridiculous, that is indeed a black and white discussion.
Like "Do 100% of the muslims...?"
The other is drowning the issues by asking inumerous philosophical questions, or questions that are simply meant to lead the attention away.
"What is violence...?"
"What is the situation of Saudi-Arabia...?"

As far as I know, in answer to your question: perhaps we must be tolerant of intolerance. Beyond that, I struggle with intolerance myself. It's a difficult problem..

That is why in the end I start to selectively quote, because I will not enter in a discussion about what violence is, etc.
"Tolerant of intolerance"?
If you accept that as an excuse then you simply give up on the rights of anyone.
Then you can also be tolerant of anti-black racism, or anti-white racism, or of sexism, ...
Why would you accept LGTBQ discrimination and not the other types?
Instead of that, it would be better to simply defend the values of modernity, our modern society and place them above the rights of any religion to believe what they want.
Because that is the line between what is acceptable and what is not.
A person can believe that gays or black people, or women or... are inferior, as long as he does not start discriminating upon it, it is only in his mind.
Your suggestion would mean that the rights of equal treatment given to these minorities actually don't mean anything, as you are simply willing to give up on them at the least resistance.
Rights that are not protected don't mean anything.

The solution is to defend the rights of all citizens, and to defend the position that religion must always be subordinate to religion.

 

[CenotaphGirl]

I still think that one of the biggest reasons they are against homosexuality is the fear that people will not reproduce, so the faith and its power will not grow fast enough.
Personally, I don't care what people believe in itself, it is how they act upon it.

Incest is of course a different case, in the long term that leads to biological problems (genetic issues).

Well if that was the case why would they also place so many rules on the relationships that can actually reproduce? doesn't really add up