Anyone here ever done pick up?

[Hauntyoueveryday]

Ladyforsaken: Here's the thing. Women say that they want a nice guy. But when they meet one they ditch him. Let's take Ted and Mitch for example. Ted is an accountant (most boring job ever). He is a "nice guy." Makes a good living, has nice hobbies, and likes to read. Mitch is kinda an *******. He does odd jobs, travels, drinks, and likes to party. They both meet Cheryl. Logically Cheryl wants Ted because Ted is a good provider and a "nice guy." But Ted does not spike her emotions and doesn't have enough male to female polarity. Cheryl logically knows that Mitch won't work out. But there is something about Mitch that attracts her. His devil may care attitude is sexy to her. The fact that other women find him desirable attracts her. She might marry a guy like Ted when she gets older. But for now Ted is a good friend and she and Mitch are going to be banging three ways to Sunday.

And I am all for gender equality don't get me wrong. But the feminism movement is just about one gender trying to assert themselves. And that behavior has shifted dating.

TherealCallie: PUAs are actually very honest with women. I never considered myself a pick up artist. But when I was studying this and meeting women I never acted like I wanted her to be my girlfriend (though I was never just interested in one night stands either). I was always honest with my intentions. All PUAs are always honest with their intentions. Putting on an act isn't a bad thing because we all do it. But I was never into totally becoming someone else just to get women. I feel that at the end of the day what really attracts someone to like you or love you is who is you truly are. Pick up is not a good long term thing as the point is to never really show 100% of your true self.

I get what Rodent means by negging. I've never been a fan of negging. I've done it and it can work with women with lower self esteem. But I remember bringing this up in the community and was told that I wasn't doing it right or something. Though some did say that you do not need to do it.

Teasing is flirting, but negging is when you just try to say something that otherwise would be considered a straight up insult.

I have a question for the males here, how do you meet women that you date?

 

[TheRealCallie]

Lol, oh look, a man telling us once again what women really want. It's always so nice to be told what we really want and feel, isn't it, ladies?

Manipulation and lying go hand in hand. 99.9% of the time when you have one, you have the other.

 

[Xpendable]

After reading the Red Pill Constitution (which sounds like the ideology some PUAs base their techniques on) I found that I know enough about the manosphere, MRA, RSD and PUA to last a lifetime. They're no better than those radical third-wave feminists who yell **** and patriarchy when men accidentally touch them or the SJWs who wanna string you up for misgendering somebody.

MRA has nothing do to with those. Otherwise I agree.

 

[amale]

That negging nonsense on one side and being pushy on the other by touching or even grabbing without any trace of consent. Neither verbal nor non-verbal...yeah, that's pretty much what comes to my mind.

This is too abstract.
Do you have a real life example?

Too abstract? Isn't negging part of the very tactics they suggest to get the attention of a so-called "hard-to-get" woman? And when it comes down to aggressive behavior, I would hate to bring up Julien Blanc again who pushed women's faces to his junk.

What exactly is wrong with negging? It may be rude, but it's not "questionable", because you're not forcing her to listen. If you bother her too much, that may quickly become your problem, especially in a testosterone filled setting like a nightclub.
As for the junk thing, you were asked who else was doing that. That was a legitimate question. The vast majority of PUAs don't do anything even remotely close, so you are blaming all of them because of the actions of the few. I don't care if that guy is respected or not, if they generally don't do that, you can't blame them for doing that.
Also, you're missing the main part of my point. I was talking about the case when the tactic worked, and I thought you were, as well.

 

[Xpendable]

Lol, oh look, a man telling us once again what women really want. It's always so nice to be told what we really want and feel, isn't it, ladies?

Manipulation and lying go hand in hand. 99.9% of the time when you have one, you have the other.

Don't speak for all women if you want to call others for doing the same. Everything and anyone can be de-constructed, stop with this political taboos. This may not be the case, but eventually we will figure out how and why we want what we want; doesn't matter how many billions we are, everything can be deduced and structured into patterns. It's a matter fo time.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

I don't know how anyone can actually feel like entering the dating world anymore. It's made out to be so complicated. People are so complicated.

 

[user 115627]

What exactly is wrong with negging? It may be rude, but it's not "questionable", because you're not forcing her to listen. If you bother her too much, that may quickly become your problem, especially in a testosterone filled setting like a nightclub.
As for the junk thing, you were asked who else was doing that. That was a legitimate question. The vast majority of PUAs don't do anything even remotely close, so you are blaming all of them because of the actions of the few. I don't care if that guy is respected or not, if they generally don't do that, you can't blame them for doing that.
Also, you're missing the main part of my point. I was talking about the case when the tactic worked, and I thought you were, as well.

Nope, I was the talking about the tactics in general. For me the term "questionable" doesn't include only forceful behavior. That's more a word I use to describe all these show-off and attention gaining tactics. It already makes me uncomfortable watching videos of PUAs "in action", let alone the idea of a normal guy applying them because some coach told them it works guaranteed. That's also why I thought Xpendable wasn't just asking about the junk thing, but about strange tactics and behaviors as a whole. You mentioned often enough how the whole point of pick-up is casual ***, but I see how many (including the OP) don't get into it with the main intent of becoming a player and having *** with a lot of girls, but to gain a choice, increase their confidence and to deal better with rejection. Some clearly mistake these as actual tactics to use when trying to find the right woman for yourself.

On a last note...sure, nobody is forcing anybody to listen. Yet we still do and what we say has consequences. If you think it's cool to break the ice with rude compliments and all that braggart stuff, go ahead. If you only want casual ***, you'll surely be successful with these methods being used on the right targets. I just like to put things into perspective. You might not always hit the right targets. But seriously, just do your thing. It's just not mine.

 

[Hauntyoueveryday]

TheRealCallie: Fair enough if you want to say that's not what you want. But #1: That doesn't mean that's not what most women want. #2: Attraction is not a choice. Haven't you ever liked someone that you wish that you didn't like?

I don't think manipulation and lying go hand in hand. But like the House episode says: everybody lies. People who lie when they go for a woman usually end up getting bit by it though.

 

[ladyforsaken]

I don't know how anyone can actually feel like entering the dating world anymore. It's made out to be so complicated. People are so complicated.

My sentiments too.

 

[TheRealCallie]

TheRealCallie: Fair enough if you want to say that's not what you want. But #1: That doesn't mean that's not what most women want. #2: Attraction is not a choice. Haven't you ever liked someone that you wish that you didn't like?

I don't think that's what most women want at all. Sure, you hear about some women claiming to want that, but even most of those women have psychological reasons for thinking they want that. I think the reason you guys say "most" is because that might be what you think you see or what you hear about, but that doesn't include all or most, that's just a small portion of women.

As for attraction, yeah, I'm sure I have been attracted to someone that I wish I wasn't attracted to, but guess what....it's MY decision whether I act on that attraction or not. Just because I am attracted to someone doesn't mean I have to go **** him or date him or even talk to him. The CHOICE is what you do and that's on the individual making the choice.

 

[TheSkaFish]

OK. Hopefully I won't regret posting in this thread, but I have some thoughts on this.

Anyway. I've never been involved in pick-up myself, but I've read a lot about it online. For the most part it rubs me the wrong way, for a number of reasons. For one, it seems to be geared more towards guys who want to just hook up with as many girls as possible, guys who just want ***. That's always seemed morally wrong to me at worst, and just plain scummy at best. It also seems to appeal to cocky guys, or to say that being cocky is what a REAL MAN should be. I can't stand cocky people in general. I never felt like I had the prerequisites of looks, money, and talent to justify being cocky. I always felt like, these people's luck can't last forever. One day they'll be in over their heads, or they'll have a bad day, and they'll fall down. Furthermore, I've always felt like cocky people were just annoying, unpleasant, and just mean for no good reason. I didn't want to be like them at all. I also don't like how cynical it is. The whole philosophy behind it seems to be, women are the enemy. Women are this thing to go out and conquer and slap or humiliate into submission and show them who the big tough "man" is. I really don't like that hyper-macho garbage.

But at the same time, I also feel like it's the right idea for guys who want to do SOMETHING about their situation if they aren't satisfied with the way things are going. I don't think pick-up is the answer, but as we all know, not every guy is a natural when it comes to interacting with women in a romantic and/or sexual way. Not every guy understands which ways work, which don't, and why. Mating is a skill and not all people are skilled at it, and for the guys I would say skill is a big factor because guys are culturally expected to make the first move both in talking to a girl and in taking it to the next level. Guys have to do the attracting. And some guys just don't know how it works. What's worse, in addition to not knowing where to start, sometimes they get ideas in their head that will only take them further down the wrong path.

I also don't like the whole idea of "being yourself" and that if someone doesn't like "yourself", then "it's not meant to be" or "they're not right for you". I think that's garbage for a number of reasons. For one, "being yourself" is only good advice if you made "yourself" into someone who would be considered attractive. But a lot of the time, we develop this sense of our "selves" during childhood, before we know which behaviors are attractive and which are not and before dating is even on the radar. I've come to realize that we made ourselves any way we are. It might have been subconscious, but it was all our choosing of our own free will and didn't have to be any particular way. And there's a lot of guys out there that have subconsciously made "ourselves" into a self that is simply not attractive to most women. They have accidentally, subconsciously set themselves up for failure. It's true that women might not be one-size-fits-all, but there are a lot of things which are generally accepted as attractive, such as confidence, and a lot of things that aren't, such as self-doubt or self-pity. You might find one woman here and there that doesn't demand confidence and is willing to overlook self-doubt but they are few and far between. Also, you yourself might not want to be with the only women who are willing to accept your faults, because maybe you have nothing to talk about. The other thing is that aside from strictly adhering to the norms, a woman might not necessarily be stuck-up. She might be great in every other way, but is unforgiving of bad traits you learned to accept as "you" but that you shouldn't have anyway and wouldn't have chosen for yourself if you knew what you were doing. Who would knowingly choose to be an self-doubting, uninteresting, tangled mess of nerves? If you had nurtured more good traits than bad ones, then maybe someone who was "not right for you" could have been the girl of your dreams.

Also, I don't think a guy necessarily has to be "bad" in order to get a girlfriend. Two guys I went to school with are prime examples. Neither one are "bad boys" really. But both have had generally interesting careers where they've been successful, they are in shape, they are knowledgeable and good at a lot of things, and they do exciting things regularly. They have a lot to show for themselves and talk about. If you're not going to be "bad" then you have to be interesting. You have to know who you are. You have to have originality and personality, you have to have a solid identity and own it. You have to distinguish yourself in some way. You can't let yourself be generic, you can't be another face in the crowd.

The other thing it boils down to, I believe, is acting like you know what you're doing. I was reading lately about musicians and the difference between the ones that are accepted and the ones who are not, and one thing that came up which caught my eye is that the ones who were accepted were the ones who acted like they knew what they were doing, even if they came off as crazy or otherwise a crummy person. It was far worse to come off as a corny try-hard, like they don't have the skills or that they don't know what they are doing. Also faring badly were the ones who act like they know they're not supposed to be there and are sorry in advance for their presence. It made sense to me that this was true of interacting with girls as well, or any social interaction really. I imagine this is even true in a job interview. I remember I used to feel like that with girls, and the prettier they were the more undeserving I felt. I felt like, "oh I'm sorry, I know I'm not supposed to be here, but could I talk to you pretty please?" This is the wrong approach. Nobody likes a self-doubting, self-deprecating, backpedaling apologist. Now I feel more like, damn right I'm here talking to this pretty girl. I know we like some of the same stuff, I know we have something to talk about, and I think we could have a good time together. Why shouldn't I be here? I'm just as good as anyone. I can be a fun guy too.

Anyway. I don't think pick-up itself is the answer, but I do think that sometimes people do have to change themselves a little, especially if it's changing what isn't working about you and replacing it with something that is. I don't think that's being fake or anything for a person to stop doing something they shouldn't be doing anyway, or to try to grow out of certain aspects of your personality that you didn't consciously choose which are only hurting you.

Long story short:

I don't think pick-up is the answer. I think there's no substitute for being confident, perceptive, acting like you know what you're doing and deserve to be there, having a lot of originality and personality, and being interesting. Being nice helps but that alone can't carry you all the way.

 

[SofiasMami]

Question: What's "negging"? Is it like nagging?

Ladyforsaken: Here's the thing. Women say that they want a nice guy. But when they meet one they ditch him. Let's take Ted and Mitch for example. Ted is an accountant (most boring job ever). He is a "nice guy." Makes a good living, has nice hobbies, and likes to read.

I realize we all want to make sense of our worlds but life is much more nuanced and messy than cut and dried, black and white circumstances. I have someone close to me who was an accountant and to all outside appearances fit the profile of a "nice guy" but was actually for decades a cheating skirt-chaser.

On the flip side, there are lots of "bad guys" who sound like fun to us women at first but turn out to have the attention span of a gnat and inability to contribute to supporting a household.

I have to say though that "pick up artist" sounds like a whole subculture to me and it's not something I'm particularly familiar with.

-Teresa

 

[TheSkaFish]

Question: What's "negging"? Is it like nagging?

I believe it's kinda talking down to a woman in a flirty but still insulting way to establish yourself in a position of "power" over the woman. Social pecking order garbage.

 

[SofiasMami]

Ok, thanks, SkaFish. Interesting.

-Teresa

 

[Xpendable]

I don't think that's what most women want at all. Sure, you hear about some women claiming to want that, but even most of those women have psychological reasons for thinking they want that.

It's evolutionary. It's in all women; from a 1% presence to 99% That's why it may seem some women are immune to it, but actually they're just less predisposed to express it.

I think the reason you guys say "most" is because that might be what you think you see or what you hear about, but that doesn't include all or most, that's just a small portion of women.

So, you think you know what women want, and that's correct, but what he thinks is wrong. Even when you both have the same anecdotal process to determin it. Your perception is somehow more valid than his because you feel it in your own small view. And it's not a small portion; not at all. Later I can gather the sources to this, but don't try to make those statements if you can't back them up. Any evolutionary Psychologist would tell you we apes have a bunch of behavior that has been thoroughly studied and explained. Nothing to do with choice and more with biological roots.

As for attraction, yeah, I'm sure I have been attracted to someone that I wish I wasn't attracted to, but guess what....it's MY decision whether I act on that attraction or not. Just because I am attracted to someone doesn't mean I have to go **** him or date him or even talk to him. The CHOICE is what you do and that's on the individual making the choice.

Free will doesn't exists.


Pd: Ska, I'm learning to appreciate your posts. keep it up.

 

[stork_error]

^That's a little passive don't you think?

Not at all...

Write about what you know right?

 

[TheSkaFish]

Free will doesn't exists.


Pd: Ska, I'm learning to appreciate your posts. keep it up.

Thanks man. I'm glad you are warming up to my posts and find some value in them. I'm trying to be more positive about dating and such, because I don't think I can succeed as long as I'm negative about it.

But I'm a little confused though, because basically my whole argument in this thread was that free will does exist and that we are always using it, even when it's subconscious. That's why it's so important to really take time to know ourselves instead of just living life on autopilot, so we don't subconsciously steer ourselves away from what we want and towards what we don't.

 

[Case]

Question: What's "negging"? Is it like nagging?

If I may expand on this more, "negging" is short for "negating." That is, "negating" a woman's self-perceived power in a group dynamic. "Negging" is an effort to bring a woman's self-esteem down just a bit so that she knows that the man "negging" her is "in control."

Furthermore, in pick-up culture, women are ranked by a 1 to 10 scale. A pick-up artist (PUA) would never ever "neg" any woman below an 8. Negging is only used for the type of woman who has men falling over her and can essentially pick and choose whomever she wants.

The reason this is supposed to work, according to PUA lore, is for the same reason that a billionaire male might seek out a dominatrix. Since the male is always in power situations, actually being a "sub" and ordered around by a dominatrix is often sexually stimulating for the super-powerful. Therefore, if a woman who has every man begging her for ***, the guy who actually disses her and does not act like the others and demands that she give the man respect, automatically shows himself to be different than all the other men she sees, theoretically making her more interested.

I have never negged a woman. I've only done the normal playfulness and joking that would get a girl to punch me in the arm as she's laughing and having fun. That's a version of negging, but not intended to establish control. Only to have fun.

Negging is one of the many reasons that I think the pick-up community is a desperately sad and lonely place. The guys obsessed with it treat women like achievements in a video game, as opposed to real people. And I'm not down with that.

 

[Hauntyoueveryday]

TheRealCallie: You still do not get it. Logic has nothing to do with attraction at all. When someone spikes your emotions your logical brain is not at work, it's your emotional brain, and you are not controlling that. It's your subconscious acting when you are attracted to someone. You are not even aware of what you are really doing at the time. And like another poster said, free will does not exist. We do not choose who we are attracted to and what we do after that.


TheSkafish: That was a very good post. Really couldn't have said it better myself. I don't think that most people that get into pick up get into it to have a lot of casual *** at first. But companies like RSD basically tell you this: do not try to get a girlfriend, get abundance by having *** with a lot of women, creating a rotation, having multiple girlfriends, not getting attached to one girlfriend, and stuff like that. So with that being pounded into your head that you have to do this and it can happen your mind naturally goes that way. My mind certainly did. I never quite got a rotation. But I was able to have casual *** here or there. It's never quite what you think it is. I remember one month I slept with just about a new girl every week. It was fun for one day. But I didn't feel better about myself. And there are a ton of cocky ******** in pick up that confuse that with confidence. Thing is cockiness has nothing to do with confidence.

I was re watching American Pie two last week. I really wish that I had paid more attention to it when I watched it just starting high school. Michelle said a few good things to Jim when helping him. One thing was that you have to able to go with the flow in any situation in the bedroom. So true. Self doubt kills attraction.

At the end of day taking action is better than taking no action. I have a cousin who hasn't had *** in seven years. He doesn't leave his house at all and never approaches. Would you rather try pick up or be like him?

At the end of the day a good place to start with attracting women is self confidence, being able to be comfortable in any situation, being fun, being positive, being your ideal self, being on your purpose, being in the present moment, reading in between the lines, good body language, good eye contact, good vocal tonality, not putting her on a pedestal, and not giving a **** what she says. That's why the bad boy is so attractive. Unlike the nice guy he is free to do all of that. A lot of bad boys do not have anything going on for them but still get laid. I am not advocating that kind of life because there is more to life than getting laid. But just being a nice guy and having a good job is simply not enough.

Sofias: It really does boil down to that. It's all about spiking a woman's emotions. Your buddy who is an accountant may be an exception. But all the accounts that I know (male or female) are kinda quiet.

A woman will say on paper they want a guy who is nice and takes care of them. But what they really want is someone that is good looking, fun, exciting, make them feel wanted, and gives them an emotional ride. The thing about nice guys is that they do what's good on paper so the woman logically wants to respond. But they don't emotionally respond therefore she just says "we weren't a good fit." That's why being a "nice guy" does not work.

 

[amale]

What exactly is wrong with negging? It may be rude, but it's not "questionable", because you're not forcing her to listen. If you bother her too much, that may quickly become your problem, especially in a testosterone filled setting like a nightclub.
As for the junk thing, you were asked who else was doing that. That was a legitimate question. The vast majority of PUAs don't do anything even remotely close, so you are blaming all of them because of the actions of the few. I don't care if that guy is respected or not, if they generally don't do that, you can't blame them for doing that.
Also, you're missing the main part of my point. I was talking about the case when the tactic worked, and I thought you were, as well.

Nope, I was the talking about the tactics in general. For me the term "questionable" doesn't include only forceful behavior. That's more a word I use to describe all these show-off and attention gaining tactics. It already makes me uncomfortable watching videos of PUAs "in action", let alone the idea of a normal guy applying them because some coach told them it works guaranteed. That's also why I thought Xpendable wasn't just asking about the junk thing, but about strange tactics and behaviors as a whole. You mentioned often enough how the whole point of pick-up is casual ***, but I see how many (including the OP) don't get into it with the main intent of becoming a player and having *** with a lot of girls, but to gain a choice, increase their confidence and to deal better with rejection. Some clearly mistake these as actual tactics to use when trying to find the right woman for yourself.

On a last note...sure, nobody is forcing anybody to listen. Yet we still do and what we say has consequences. If you think it's cool to break the ice with rude compliments and all that braggart stuff, go ahead. If you only want casual ***, you'll surely be successful with these methods being used on the right targets. I just like to put things into perspective. You might not always hit the right targets. But seriously, just do your thing. It's just not mine.

I never said that pick up was all about casual ***, I was talking about the techniques which may get you that. For many, the main point of it is just to have fun and learn how to interoperate with females, whether scoring or not.
Even though almost everyone here says it's just a bunch of sad bitter insecure losers or whatever, it's actually a huge and diverse culture.