Are all killers guilty

[Peaches]

No one has clean hands in this world.

quite true..
ok, controversial issue all the way, do we want to close this thread?

 

[TheRealCallie]

I understand this is not everyone's opinion, fair enough. I respect other people's opinions, but you will understand if I don't want to have someone like that in my life on a regular basis, because it makes me too sad. And as I said, I can understand that people join the army for a variety of reasons, and that most of them come back with some major luggage, I was just put off by the attitude of this dude that I might define "cavalier" (hope it's the right term).

No one is saying you have to have them in your life. If you feel uncomfortable around that, that's entirely your right.

But, what I'm saying is that you are judging him for what he's done in war. Maybe he did pick it as a career choice, but not everyone who joins up goes to war. Not everyone joins up to kill people. Sometimes, that fact escapes them because it is an honor to serve your country in that way. Of course there are downsides, like killing people and the mental recourse that has on you, but it's still an honor either way.

My grandfather always refused to talk about what he did in war and a lot of people I know refuse to talk about exactly what they did. While one can't tell upon meeting them, I can assure you that a lot of them have psychological problems from what they had to do during war. Many come back with PTSD, some never recover from it. Some live in denial of what they've done so they don't have to face it. You can't know what he's really feeling. If you don't want him in your life, that's fine, but don't judge him for what he's done during war because you don't know what it's like. Only people that have been through it know what it's like.

Do you know if this guy talks to anyone and everything about what he has done or if you were a special case?

 

[Peaches]

If you don't want him in your life, that's fine, but don't judge him for what he's done during war because you don't know what it's like. Only people that have been through it know what it's like.

Do you know if this guy talks to anyone and everything about what he has done or if you were a special case?

that's what I needed to hear, thank you, don't know why this strong reaction, usually I am more chilled

 

[stork_error]

For me, I think it would depend on the way the person got into the war. Was it his own choice to join the army or was he forced against his will?

If he went willingly then no I would not date him

Just my opinion.

 

[Peaches]

For me, I think it would depend on the way the person got into the war. Was it his own choice to join the army or was he forced against his will?

If he went willingly then no I would not date him

Just my opinion.

well, glad I'm not the only one who feels that way

 

[VanillaCreme]

I'm not sure I'd personally be so harsh even if the guy did decide to willingly go. People who serve their countries do so for a reason. What that reason is, I may never know from a guy who willingly served. I think there's some merit in it, even if there is blood spilled.

 

[DenverDave]

Narcissists make the best soldiers because they lack a conscience. They make the worst politicians for the same reason.

 

[ardour]

A lot of people who join up are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. They get their tuition paid for and sometimes learn skills during service that can be carried over to a career. Many are so young they don't have a grasp of what they might be up for and aren’t educated about the morality/politics surrounding the conflict. Don't blame them, blame the politicians who incentivized the process.

If you don't want someone "like that" in your life, that's your prerogative, but what is he supposed to do, wallow in self-hatred for the rest of his life?

 

[user 115627]

A lot of people who join up are from low socioeconomic backgrounds. They get their tuition paid for and sometimes learn skills during service that can be carried over to a career. Many are so young they don't have a grasp of what they might be up for and aren’t educated about the morality/politics surrounding the conflict. Don't blame them, blame the politicians who incentivized the process.

If you don't want someone "like that" in your life, that's your prerogative, but what is he supposed to do, wallow in self-hatred for the rest of his life?

Two very valid points. Duty, purpose and tuition funding are still effective keywords that are tossed at young people to convince them to join service...I've seen these words quite often in marketing campaigns of our own army. And eternal self-loathing and regret, intensely felt or not, does not bring back the dead. Just as it doesn't mend broken hearts and the likes.

 

[stork_error]

Peach dont feel bad about your feelings, I have the same ones. I would sort of explain it like eating meat.

I hate that animals are killed, I hate that I eat them. I don't hate the guy who slaughters the animals for meat, but I wouldn't date him.

Yet, I would eat the annimal that he killed and I am thankful that somebody does this job so I dont have to because I could not.

Apologies to all you vegans, hate on me I deserve it. Sorry my diet requires protein, I wont argue with you.

I think for me when all is said and done, when signing your name on the dotted line in the army you know that you may have to kill. You are basically saying I will trade my poor economic status, and kill other humans so that i can have a safe peaceful and secure life with a good education and money.

There is no amount of money that could make me make that decision to accept that potential reality, however...Im really thankful that others are willing to do it since i cannot. So since killing is so wrong to me, I could never date someone who makes this choice to kill.

Just as being around the animal killer would make me sick, being around the army dude would do the same.

Also like you said peach, you perceive the mentality as being drone like. I do as well and its not compatible with my personality. But i am thankful for my freedom, and this mentaity os compatible with someone who better understands and appreciates it from a different point of view

This runs deep and its not a judgement, its a feeling and it cant be changed. I'ts engrained. You react because it is a core value and you dont have to change of justify it to anyone.

I wouldnt date an army guy either, but this doesnt mean my decision is right or fair, it may be extremely unfair but I'm ok with it. I like my values, i like my perception and I like my rebelious antisheeple nature and if i find something that tries to make me feel like its not me, then i know its not for me.

The reality in war is that some recruits are brainwashed, some want to serve their country, some are in poverty and want a better life and some are attracted to killing.

I am extremely thankful for soldiers and meat killers, but I cant marry them.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Okay to the vegan comment, sorry, but I get all the protein I need, so really, that's just an excuse.

Now I want to address something else, not just to stock error, but people in general. There is A LOT of judgment and speculation in this thread. Anyone here that is in the military, has been in the military, wants to be in the military or that knows someone close to them that was or still is in the military could be deeply hurt by some of the things being said here. Whether you mean offense or not, it's offensive to say these things.
Regardless of what you, yourself choose to believe, you don't know why they joined the army, you don't know how they feel, you don't know what they went through or if they are scarred because of going through that. Some of you ARE judging them, even if you say you aren't. Yes, you have a right to how you feel, and I'll never tell you otherwise, but you do NOT have a right to judge someone because of the choices they made in their own life. Some have called them drones or drone like. That is an insult to them, every single one of the men and women who go out there and fight for your freedom, fight for your safety, at the risk of themselves.

No one in any of your families have served in the military? No one close to you has, at some point in their life, served in the military? Do you just tune it out just because it's your family? Is it okay because you aren't dating them?

 

[ardour]

Peach dont feel bad about your feelings, I have the same ones. I would sort of explain it like eating meat.

I hate that animals are killed, I hate that I eat them. I don't hate the guy who slaughters the animals for meat, but I wouldn't date him.

Yet, I would eat the annimal that he killed and I am thankful that somebody does this job so I dont have to because I could not.

Apologies to all you vegans, hate on me I deserve it. Sorry my diet requires protein, I wont argue with you.

I think for me when all is said and done, when signing your name on the dotted line in the army you know that you may have to kill. You are basically saying I will trade my poor economic status, and kill other humans so that i can have a safe peaceful and secure life with a good education and money.

There is no amount of money that could make me make that decision to accept that potential reality, however...Im really thankful that others are willing to do it since i cannot. So since killing is so wrong to me, I could never date someone who makes this choice to kill.

Just as being around the animal killer would make me sick, being around the army dude would do the same.

Also like you said peach, you perceive the mentality as being drone like. I do as well and its not compatible with my personality. But i am thankful for my freedom, and this mentaity os compatible with someone who better understands and appreciates it from a different point of view

This runs deep and its not a judgement, its a feeling and it cant be changed. I'ts engrained. You react because it is a core value and you dont have to change of justify it to anyone.

I wouldnt date an army guy either, but this doesnt mean my decision is right or fair, it may be extremely unfair but I'm ok with it. I like my values, i like my perception and I like my rebelious antisheeple nature and if i find something that tries to make me feel like its not me, then i know its not for me.

The reality in war is that some recruits are brainwashed, some want to serve their country, some are in poverty and want a better life and some are attracted to killing.

I am extremely thankful for soldiers and meat killers, but I cant marry them.

I'm vegetarian. It's easy to get all the protein you need. We eat way too much protein as it is anyway.

The most likely reason to continue eating meat is because it's enjoyable. You don't give much of a crap about animals being killed for food if you continue to eat meat.

I'd say the real reason you wouldn't date the slaughterhouse worker is class snobbery. 'Class' explains the rest of the post.

Some have called them drones or drone like. That is an insult to them

Having to follow orders for a time doesn't make somebody a drone.
Most of us have to follow rules and be accountable at work. Well, those of us who work anyway. That must make us automatons too by this reasoning.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Some have called them drones or drone like. That is an insult to them

Having to follow orders for a time doesn't make somebody a drone.
Most of us have to follow rules and be accountable at work. Well, those of us who work anyway. That must make us automatons too by this reasoning.

Exactly, we have ALL done things we didn't want to do because we were told to do it. Whether it's for work or when you were growing up or whatever circumstance you find yourself in.

 

[Lacrecia]

I like men who feel at least a bit guilty when they have blood on their hands.

Feeling guilty about killing innocent people would have shown that there is still a bit of humanity in him.
Were I in your situation, I wouldn't talk to him again (but this does not mean that I am encouraging you to cut contact). I would be more understanding if he says that he regrets it. I would be more understanding if he says that he killed men with guns and who wouldn't have shown mercy for him. But to say that it was his job to kill innocent people? Since when that is supposed to be a respectable job?
Again, this is just my opinion. Everyone have their reasons for doing what they did, etc.

 

[Serenia]

I like men who feel at least a bit guilty when they have blood on their hands.

Feeling guilty about killing innocent people would have shown that there is still a bit of humanity in him.
Were I in your situation, I wouldn't talk to him again (but this does not mean that I am encouraging you to cut contact). I would be more understanding if he says that he regrets it. I would be more understanding if he says that he killed men with guns and who wouldn't have shown mercy for him. But to say that it was his job to kill innocent people? Since when that is supposed to be a respectable job?
Again, this is just my opinion. Everyone have their reasons for doing what they did, etc.

I think Peaches said that, not him.

All I can say with many of my family who where 'drafted' and stories I have been told. Some of them had to keep a very, very tight lid of the emotion of this time. If not it could have easily have finished them, so they shut it off to be able to function in life, carry on working and caring for their families.

So in an attempt not to let these emotions free, people may 'appear' non-chalant, hard faced, emotionless, ignorant etc.

 

[Peaches]

No one in any of your families have served in the military? No one close to you has, at some point in their life, served in the military? Do you just tune it out just because it's your family? Is it okay because you aren't dating them?

eheh, actually as far as I can go all my family members have been kind of antimilitarist, great grandfather served in WWI but managed never to shoot one shot at a person and later became a doctor out of guilt for what he saw, grandmother was cooking food for the Resistance, those who were trying to liberate the country from the Nazi, both grandfathers (both drafted, in the beginning) were actually working in the military (because it was comfortable I guess) doing administrative stuff, one almost got killed because he refused to do even the choreographic walks that the Fascist party would require, spent a year or so in a trench playing card games, and afterwards he joined the Resistance; the other was sent to Africa and couldn't even kill one lion when the other officers brought him out to hunt - I truly believe that if any of the two had been sent in action they would have either run away or refused to shoot and get killed (they were all very religious) or do what the great grandfather did, try to get by without actually killing anyone (none of them was probably the hero type).

Second generation: my mother doesn't kill flies, all other relatives are fiercely anti-militaristic (father was positively Gandhian and twice was robbed by some bum in the street that he regularly took it for some nights), aunt was big activist in student protests in the 60ies agains Vietnam etc, and the others are intellectuals or scientists or artists with little interest in worldly affairs, and a strong anarchic streak (except for one of my grandfather's brothers who ended up becoming a pretty important Mafia person (!) but the others didn't really talk about it).
So I guess the main value I was transmitted is critical thinking and, yes, disobedience if my values are not aligned to the orders given.

I understand these are extreme examples, and most people who are drafted they just do what they can to come back alive - let's say I understand that people might want to join voluntarily the army (NOT drafted) for different reasons, but at an emotional level I can only think that there are better jobs.

I don't think I personally know anyone - except for those two I mentioned, and one whose dad was in the Pakistani liberation front or something - who served in a war, and again, WWII and other wars I think were extremely different from wars like Iraq, I understand many of you don't think that way. But I know several who were in prison after defending human rights, one for 15 years

Now you see where I come from... I guess you can call it "conditioning" not claiming to be objective here, if there is such a thing as objectivity in these matters

And I apologize for the one sentence that was indeed offensive, and that already five minutes after it was written was already quoted twice so it wasn't possible to delete it. I understand that those people Callie mentions might have their own very good reasons for wanting to join the army, and I respect their good intentions, but I don't respect the actual result (military and war) and I think that is my right. But, agreed, adjectives are never good in a thread, I was upset (because of the guy, not anyone in the thread).

 

[TheRealCallie]

I understand that those people Callie mentions might have their own very good reasons for wanting to join the army, and I respect their good intentions, but I don't respect the actual result (military and war).

You don't have to respect the action to respect the person.

Set your boundaries. If you don't care to talk about or listen to what may have happened to people during war or whatever, tell them that you don't want to hear about it.

 

[Peaches]

If you don't want someone "like that" in your life, that's your prerogative, but what is he supposed to do, wallow in self-hatred for the rest of his life?

just meet some nice girl who doesn't mind war and who will love to love a brave soldier there are plenty of them

 

[user 115627]

I just dropped in to echo that I called him (and only the guy this is about) "a drone at worst". What others made of the word is none of my business, but what I meant in this context was: He could be a drone under certain prerequisites. Not taking responsibility for his actions, no feelings of remorse and distancing himself by saying it was "just his job"...and parts of this were insinuated by Peaches. Of course there are a lot of assumptions and possibilities to consider, but I took everything I could get to draw a remotely reasonable conclusion. That what's I tried at least.

Sigh, my grandfather was in the war because he had no choice, but my great-grandfather was a convicted Nazi. Apart from that my family remained rather "clean". But I got too many people in my nation's history that only did their job and still too many people today that would gladly do this job again.

 

[BeyondShy]

Exactly, we have ALL done things we didn't want to do because we were told to do it. Whether it's for work or when you were growing up or whatever circumstance you find yourself in.

That is so true that it shouldn't even have to be pointed out. Since we all have been knee-high we have been forced to do things that we'd just as soon not do.

I like men who feel at least a bit guilty when they have blood on their hands.

I'll get to this in a minute. I just wanted to keep it here so I wouldn't forget about it.

Ok, now.

And I apologize for the one sentence that was indeed offensive, and that already five minutes after it was written was already quoted twice so it wasn't possible to delete it. I understand that those people Callie mentions might have their own very good reasons for wanting to join the army, and I respect their good intentions, but I don't respect the actual result (military and war) and I think that is my right. But, agreed, adjectives are never good in a thread, I was upset (because of the guy, not anyone in the thread).

That's fine. We've all said things in here that we wish we could have worded better. I know I have.

I highlighted one thing you said here. Do you really think anyone respects or likes what war means? Soldiers and sailors and Marines are at the top of the list here because they are the ones doing the dying. You think some young 22 year-old kid wants to be in a war for example? I am sure he has better plans to do with his life.

Nobody likes war but in the history of man we have never been able to figure out how to prevent the next one from happening.

Look what these ISIS people are doing now. Or have you forgotten what they did back in November in France? Those people are maniacs and nothing is off limits to them. They behead people. They set people on fire. Over and over again. We need the people you dislike and look down on so much to defend us from these people.

Let's pretend here for a minute and say ISIS is not too far from where you live (God forbid of course) and they are getting closer. I don't think you'd object at all if a few troops of those soldiers with guns show up and do their job and protect the innocent civilians. After it is all done you live and the terrorists are taken down. These guys did their job and part of their job at that time was to kill those ISIS terrorists. The way they see it their mission was successful. The bad guys were taken down and that's that. But according to you you want nothing to do with them now because now they have blood on their hands and they are not upset about it. There's still something the matter with them even though they put their life on the line to save yours.

Yeah they killed. They had to. They are not giving themselves high-fives at the end of the day. They did their job despite of how people like you feel about them. They did their job to save lives.

There is NOTHING wrong with you being a pacifist. I am. I don't want a war either. I am with you here. But I do not look down on someone who was in one and did what he had to do to survive.

Sigh, my grandfather was in the war because he had no choice, but my great-grandfather was a convicted Nazi.

A lot of people back in 1930's Germany were Nazis. A lot of people who were Nazis were not ones by choice. Back then if you were a young and strong you were perfect for the Nazi party so they made your mind up for you. You were in. Many joined under threat. Maybe their family was threatened with death or being sent to the concentration camps. And that's one thing that people don't realize by the way. The Jewish people were not the only ones sent to those terrible places. Many Germans went too.

Not all Nazis were convicted either. Heinrich Himmler, the leader of the Schutzstaffel (the SS) was never convicted. That's because when the British caught him in 1945 he took a cyanide pill and killed himself.