Fat Bashing.

[user 115627]

No I am saying that is just one example of a variable that COULD be the cause of these issues that has nothing to do with morbid obesity, but yet is laid at is feet as if that is the end of the conversation. No one has ever done the research. It is just a blind simpleton assumption made by so called thinking people and doctors. So when people say that being morbidly obese is a health problem, they are not really sure of that. You can be morbidly obese and not have a single health issue. Being human makes you prone to may different health problems. Losing weight could resolve those issues or, not at all.

So are you arguing that all these variables (Vitamin D deficiency being one of them) will make the occurance of morbid obesity possibly neglegible in the process of diagnosing? In other words, more often than not it's not a major contributor to the patient's well-being.

I think you are vastly mispresenting the medical community by making such a claim regarding "thinking people and doctors" as if the majority of them would never bother looking outside the box for the sake of the patient's health. But it's your right to do so.

If it is some then I don't see the difference between a morbidly obese person and a person. Everyone has potential diseases. The hypothesis here is that morbidly obese people are more prone to it than others and therefore "they should do something about that." But if these issues are not causative than it wouldn't be anyone's business how fat or not someone was. Now they get to walk around going "oh but the health" when that is based on shaky ground. But no one cares to explore that because they wouldn't have their moral superiority; diet programs; and multi million dollar surgery hospitals.

Well I do see a difference if it's a minority ("some"). But as I argued before, it still shouldn't keep the doctor from following different avenues if the treatment (losing weight) does not produce the desired results. Also, you are throwing regular doctors under the bus by conflating them with inane diet advisors while most people know diets are ineffective because of their temporary time window and those million dollar surgery hospitals which are not the average hospital as far as I know.

You are saying that it's a hypothesis and on "shaky ground". I continue to disagree.

Back to the blame game again... morbidly obese has to be some flat slob that chooses to indulge in 5 happy meals per day. Right back to sad stereotypes so that the thing among you can feel all superior. Isn't that fat bashing?

As the TheRealCallie pointed out, I said if. So quit strawmanning. But it's probably not even a strawman to you since you have established that you think the link between morbid obesity, overeating and health issues is a hypothesis at best.

 

[VanillaCreme]

And have you? But I have done way more research than any thin person.

Yes if you are eating too many calories a day the blame is on you. The fat bashing is presuming that anyone who is fat does that.

I'm sure there are people who have done the same amount, if not more, research than you. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by arguing so much, but calm down with it please. There's no need to turn this into something that it doesn't have to be. There's a lot of information and theories out there about this, and you're not the only source of them.

 

[Paraiyar]

But I have done way more research than any thin person.

My god this sentence cracked me up...

 

[EmilyFoxSeaton]

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by arguing so much, but calm down with it please. There's no need to turn this into something that it doesn't have to be. There's a lot of information and theories out there about this, and you're not the only source of them.

I have been calm the entire time. I don't believe I am the one who rudely told another poster to "stop strawmanning" I am simply responding to a discussion.

But for the record there was no reason to bring up the ideas that "some" fatties eat 5 happy meals and thus that is why their fat. That is an obvious statement. That is exactly what Fat bashing is.

 

[TheRealCallie]

But I have done way more research than any thin person.

I'd actually like to revisit this sentence. How are you doing your research? Where are you getting your information? Because if you're just researching the side you want to agree with and not looking at BOTH sides, your information isn't all that accurate.
Aside from that, it matters WHERE you are getting your information because some sites aren't that reliable or trustworthy.

 

[VanillaCreme]

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by arguing so much, but calm down with it please. There's no need to turn this into something that it doesn't have to be. There's a lot of information and theories out there about this, and you're not the only source of them.

I have been calm the entire time. I don't believe I am the one who rudely told another poster to "stop strawmanning" I am simply responding to a discussion.

But for the record there was no reason to bring up the ideas that "some" fatties eat 5 happy meals and thus that is why their fat. That is an obvious statement. That is exactly what Fat bashing is.

I had to look up what "strawmanning" was, but it fits nearly perfect to what you're doing. Fat bashing is wrong to you, but saying things about thinner people is perfectly fine? Both sides can have super extremes, and neither one is good.

 

[ardour]

I respectfully disagree and I'm someone that holds certain fringe opinions himself. But I'm interested in what evidence would indeed establish causation instead of correlation of morbid obesity to a multitude of diseases to you? I don't doubt that some doctors will be all too eager to fight an illness by fixing what is most obvious flaw to the eye in order to cure the patient. But this is essentially just a Not-all defense. I think the consensus is that certain diseases appear more often than not together with obesity.

Fat acceptance advocates claim that it's the distress associated with shaming that causes the higher incidence of disease. It's probably a factor.

I think it's the kind of foods that cause people to gain weight quickly that are the disease causing agents, not being overweight (although not being able to exercise effectively is a major negative).

Sugar tax! No seriously, governments should do something to reduce the cost of healthy foods, such as removing GST on fruit and vegetables, and impose restrictions on the amount of sugar that can be added to common packaged foods.

 

[Paraiyar]

I respectfully disagree and I'm someone that holds certain fringe opinions himself. But I'm interested in what evidence would indeed establish causation instead of correlation of morbid obesity to a multitude of diseases to you? I don't doubt that some doctors will be all too eager to fight an illness by fixing what is most obvious flaw to the eye in order to cure the patient. But this is essentially just a Not-all defense. I think the consensus is that certain diseases appear more often than not together with obesity.

Fat acceptance advocates claim that it's the distress associated with shaming that causes the higher incidence of disease. It's probably a factor.

I think it's the kind of foods that cause people to gain weight quickly that are the disease causing agents, not being overweight (although not being able to exercise effectively is a major negative).

Sugar tax! No seriously, governments should do something to reduce the cost of healthy foods, such as removing GST on fruit and vegetables, and impose restrictions on the amount of sugar that can be added to common packaged foods.

This is anecdotal but I have also heard some people say that fat shaming motivated them to lose weight. So this might depend on the individual to an extent.

 

[Serenia]

I respectfully disagree and I'm someone that holds certain fringe opinions himself. But I'm interested in what evidence would indeed establish causation instead of correlation of morbid obesity to a multitude of diseases to you? I don't doubt that some doctors will be all too eager to fight an illness by fixing what is most obvious flaw to the eye in order to cure the patient. But this is essentially just a Not-all defense. I think the consensus is that certain diseases appear more often than not together with obesity.

Fat acceptance advocates claim that it's the distress associated with shaming that causes the higher incidence of disease. It's probably a factor.

I think it's the kind of foods that cause people to gain weight quickly that are the disease causing agents, not being overweight (although not being able to exercise effectively is a major negative).

Sugar tax! No seriously, governments should do something to reduce the cost of healthy foods, such as removing GST on fruit and vegetables, and impose restrictions on the amount of sugar that can be added to common packaged foods.

This is anecdotal but I have also heard some peoplr say that fat shaming motivated them to lose weight. So this might depend on the individual to an extent.

I think you are right here, but also right that it is on the individual. To me fat shaming has the opposite effect.

Ardour - I think you have some great points there. When you look at the price of some fruit and veg, especially organic it is awful. I think there might be something in the sugar tax, but broaden it to what makes some foods (which I believe can become addictive), unhealthy ingredients like saccarin (sp?), aspartimine (sp?) I think these artificial sweetners can raise havoc with your system. I would like to see the cost of lean meat reduced in this country, it annoys me greatly, that you can buy a tin of corned beef, stewing steak, hot dogs for much, much less than a pack of chicken fillets, or lean beef, pork or turkey even which used to be cheapish.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I respectfully disagree and I'm someone that holds certain fringe opinions himself. But I'm interested in what evidence would indeed establish causation instead of correlation of morbid obesity to a multitude of diseases to you? I don't doubt that some doctors will be all too eager to fight an illness by fixing what is most obvious flaw to the eye in order to cure the patient. But this is essentially just a Not-all defense. I think the consensus is that certain diseases appear more often than not together with obesity.

Fat acceptance advocates claim that it's the distress associated with shaming that causes the higher incidence of disease. It's probably a factor.

I think it's the kind of foods that cause people to gain weight quickly that are the disease causing agents, not being overweight (although not being able to exercise effectively is a major negative).

Sugar tax! No seriously, governments should do something to reduce the cost of healthy foods, such as removing GST on fruit and vegetables, and impose restrictions on the amount of sugar that can be added to common packaged foods.

This is anecdotal but I have also heard some peoplr say that fat shaming motivated them to lose weight. So this might depend on the individual to an extent.

I think you are right here, but also right that it is on the individual. To me fat shaming has the opposite effect.

Ardour - I think you have some great points there. When you look at the price of some fruit and veg, especially organic it is awful. I think there might be something in the sugar tax, but broaden it to what makes some foods (which I believe can become addictive), unhealthy ingredients like saccarin (sp?), aspartimine (sp?) I think these artificial sweetners can raise havoc with your system. I would like to see the cost of lean meat reduced in this country, it annoys me greatly, that you can buy a tin of corned beef, stewing steak, hot dogs for much, much less than a pack of chicken fillets, or lean beef, pork or turkey even which used to be cheapish.

Not only all that crap, but also going to Starbucks or wherever and getting calorie filled drinks full of empty calories that give you an additional 700 calories a cup (if not more).

Thin people are just as guilty of that one, so I'm not placing that entirely on fat people, before anyone tries to say I am....
That's the first thing I did when I wanted to lose the weight. I stopped drinking calories and I still don't.

 

[user 115627]

I have been calm the entire time. I don't believe I am the one who rudely told another poster to "stop strawmanning" I am simply responding to a discussion.

But for the record there was no reason to bring up the ideas that "some" fatties eat 5 happy meals and thus that is why their fat. That is an obvious statement. That is exactly what Fat bashing is.

So that's what constitutes as rude to you? Fair enough. But assassinating my character by labeling me as fat shamer for saying that I will point out the absurdity of a morbidly obese person consuming way too much fast-food/processed food and not seeing the causation is completely fine. It's not my fault that you have accessed this stereotype to have no merit at all, or only in "some" cases. That remark didn't even contain any numbers and that's where you strawmanned me. Whether it's an obvious statement or not has no relevance either. You misrepresented me.

-----

Back on topic, I genuinely do not believe that health issues are the go-to rationalization when people decide to actually fat shame somebody. Mind that this conversation didn't start in the medical sphere, we talked about regular people shaming a fat person. When somebody decides to call a fat person disgusting, it's hardly any different to me than calling an ugly person disgusting for features which are in stark contrast to common perceptions of beauty like symmetry and spotlessness. Before anyone claims "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and "Not-all-X". Yes, to a certain degree. But I believe in certain traits that are perceived to be overall more attractive than others, let alone the opposite.

 

[bleed_the_freak]

George Orwell: “In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

 

[Serenia]

There is telling truth, that is already known to the person, and then there is mocking and cruelty.

 

[Paraiyar]

To add another facet to this debate, I recall seeing a youtube clip of a debate with a fat rights activist in which said activist questioned a member of the audience who had been successful in losing weight as to whether she felt happy with her life choices and then got really offended when the woman, after answering in the affirmative, asked her the same question.

I can't help but think that the attitudes of some of these activists doesn't help things.

 

[TheDude76]

Since another person's being overweight is none of my business, and in no way affects me, I keep my mouth shut on the matter. It seems the majority of people these days feel that it is necessary in a questionably democratic world to express an opinion on everything. It's no wonder people seem more foolish now than ever before.

"Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt."

 

[constant stranger]

OK, overweight issues are outside of my frame of reference and experience so my opinions are not very relevant. However, it seems clear that overweight people are still 'bashed' in so many ways, hence personal problems can be laid at the doorstep of their extra poundage. Some (..SOME..) fat people, in my opinion, use that discrimination as an excuse for their compromised success in life.

As an example, I cite the cyclic weight loss / weight gain that some overweight people are prone to display: I've got problems? My overweight makes it worse, so I go through the struggle of losing it....Now I'm more slender but oh darn! I still have the same problems but the fat excuse isn't there any more. Hence the weight gain part of the cycle kicks in....

Simplistic, you say. No argument. It's just another facet of a complex issue.

 

[TheDude76]

OK, overweight issues are outside of my frame of reference and experience so my opinions are not very relevant.

... and we could've ended it there. If it doesn't affect us, why do we need to talk about it? Fat folks (I used to be one) can figure things out for themselves, or not, as they wish.

 

[TheDude76]

So, you're basically saying that it's just people being rude about where their bodies land. Because I have to say that as a fat person, and a person in general, I try my best not to get into people's personal space, as I don't like them in mine.

But again, it is an issue that applies to everyone, period. Everyone can take up too much space... small large or not. Just another way to fat bash. But pretending this is a known common problem with regard to fat people. Every human being that is taking up too much space or sitting on someone else, period, should apologize for it. Not in anyway more common to fat people.

Might I suggest people NOT apologize for taking up space? I used to weigh 350lbs, and I never apologized for simply "being there". There seems to be this communal idea that people should apologize for themselves, for simply being there. How is that good for anyone?

 

[TheRealCallie]

So, you're basically saying that it's just people being rude about where their bodies land. Because I have to say that as a fat person, and a person in general, I try my best not to get into people's personal space, as I don't like them in mine.

But again, it is an issue that applies to everyone, period. Everyone can take up too much space... small large or not. Just another way to fat bash. But pretending this is a known common problem with regard to fat people. Every human being that is taking up too much space or sitting on someone else, period, should apologize for it. Not in anyway more common to fat people.

Might I suggest people NOT apologize for taking up space? I used to weigh 350lbs, and I never apologized for simply "being there". There seems to be this communal idea that people should apologize for themselves, for simply being there. How is that good for anyone?

There is a difference between simply taking up space and taking up someone else's space....If you are falling out of your seat, into someone else's, you shouldn't apologize for that? Or if you accidentally slip and fall into someone (not necessarily a fat person), you shouldn't apologize for that?

 

[TheDude76]

So, you're basically saying that it's just people being rude about where their bodies land. Because I have to say that as a fat person, and a person in general, I try my best not to get into people's personal space, as I don't like them in mine.

But again, it is an issue that applies to everyone, period. Everyone can take up too much space... small large or not. Just another way to fat bash. But pretending this is a known common problem with regard to fat people. Every human being that is taking up too much space or sitting on someone else, period, should apologize for it. Not in anyway more common to fat people.

Might I suggest people NOT apologize for taking up space? I used to weigh 350lbs, and I never apologized for simply "being there". There seems to be this communal idea that people should apologize for themselves, for simply being there. How is that good for anyone?

There is a difference between simply taking up space and taking up someone else's space....If you are falling out of your seat, into someone else's, you shouldn't apologize for that? Or if you accidentally slip and fall into someone (not necessarily a fat person), you shouldn't apologize for that?

If I accidentally ran into someone, sure. Otherwise, I'd say the venue needs bigger chairs. Honestly, I still find a lot of chairs to be small, and I've lost a lot of weight. I advise the "I'm here. Deal with it." approach.