How to Talk About mental Health. Do you agree?

[Hazed]

I find it incredibly telling and unnatural that these articles are necessary. And i think the fact that they're written and posted is telling about something being horribly wrong. Is it not much better to have conversation not be this sterile and forced? This reads like an instruction manual, we're all human beings for ****'s sake. Stuff like this pisses me off. It's like the AI age is already here and we are the AI.

If someone has something on their mind, they will tell you and you just talk about it like normal people do. And the way you're supposed to be part of a group means you won't have to get that far into a or any depressive state to the point where people need to be taught how to talk to you. These days everything is mememe. I can ditch whoever i want because it benefits me. I am an island. I am God now. It's unnatural and leaves everyone feeling alone. I don't think we're wired to be that way. We're supposed to be in a group. Part of something.

But that's utopic and not feasible here. What is? Is this a way forward? I don't think promoting all this helps, but instead harms more in the long run. Just talk to the person. It's not a minefield, it's a human being.

Personally, i think listening is very useful but so is giving advice. You just have to know when to do what. If you don't you're gonna have to practise. But it's a cycle where this mindset creates more people that need to be taught how to talk to people and it's been going on for a while.

In a way i agree with you, Hypno.

 

[user 115627]

Maybe it just happens naturally when people attempt to give a broader audience advice on...how to be human? These things always feel like exercises in sloganeering. Not particularly surprising when we're talking about a hashtag campaign. Accidental Gaslighting is just...don't be overbearing in your attempts at support. Just Listening is pretty much the same. If you don't establish a "real connection" with the person you want to help you're just playing therapist yourself, not a particularly good one though. Maybe you don't even like the person but you are doing it because you think that makes you a better person or you are overestimating your competence. Worst case, you are one of those "I've been depressed before" people but that was just you spending some weekends alone eating ice cream wrapped in a blanket. I know you're not supposed to "gatekeep" when it comes down to these feelings, but sometimes people's attempts at relating to another's genuine tragedy or misery are borderline deluded. Establishing boundaries and safeguarding once again hits the same note to me. Do not overestimate your competence and know when you are out of your depth - are these things really that difficult? Keep the advice on the backburner and ask questions so the person opens up if they are that particular stage.

But perhaps you have actually gone through a genuinely bad situation and you lived to the tell the tale. You should still prevent yourself from indulging too much in your own survivor bias of how one can totally make it if they only try. If you are lucky you can send them off with that piece of advice and never see that person again. After all, you've already lived through it successfully so you are not responsible for someone else's failed attempts at getting out of the hole they're in. No two situations are the same.  Personally I just remind myself that the worst vice is advice. The possibility that you actually know what the hell you are talking about is relatively slim and your personal success could be completely coincidental. Remind yourself of your potential fallibility - that's when we are talking about serious business. I'm not sure if advice on how to talk about mental health is helpful to those who barely know how to talk to a person that merely happens to be sad.

 

[HypnoGhost]

i think your response pre-supposes that there are always viable solutions for everyone.  my own personal experience has shown that this is not the case and some people are just too flawed to ever find contentment or happiness.

There is always a solution to a problem.
It is not always seen or understood.
You sound very defeated?
Nobody's perfect.

 

[mgill]

i think your response pre-supposes that there are always viable solutions for everyone.  my own personal experience has shown that this is not the case and some people are just too flawed to ever find contentment or happiness.

There is always a solution to a problem.
It is not always seen or understood.
You sound very defeated?
Nobody's perfect.

i would disagree that there is always a solution.  some things just have to be lived with because there is no possible way to improve them. i guess defeated is as good of description as any.  it is almost an inevitable destination after so many years of loneliness & being unwanted. imo it's not a matter of being perfect but instead of just being good enough and some people simply do not measure up.

 

[HypnoGhost]

i think your response pre-supposes that there are always viable solutions for everyone.  my own personal experience has shown that this is not the case and some people are just too flawed to ever find contentment or happiness.

There is always a solution to a problem.
It is not always seen or understood.
You sound very defeated?
Nobody's perfect.

i would disagree that there is always a solution.  some things just have to be lived with because there is no possible way to improve them. i guess defeated is as good of description as any.  it is almost an inevitable destination after so many years of loneliness & being unwanted. imo it's not a matter of being perfect but instead of just being good enough and some people simply do not measure up.

I think you are confusing a solution with an improvement. These aren't always the same thing.
I do not know your situation, if you ever want to share just PM me.
I can honestly relate to the loneliness & feeling unwanted, I still dip into that mindset every now and then. Up and down like a yoyo tbh!
I don't quite understand the last bit, do you feel not perfect or measure up or are other people? If it's other people I can relate, I have high standards and ideals and am very much a perfectionist lol its not one but some of my downfalls hahaha
But at the same time I have felt how you feel. For what it's worth.

 

[mgill]

i think your response pre-supposes that there are always viable solutions for everyone.  my own personal experience has shown that this is not the case and some people are just too flawed to ever find contentment or happiness.

There is always a solution to a problem.
It is not always seen or understood.
You sound very defeated?
Nobody's perfect.

i would disagree that there is always a solution.  some things just have to be lived with because there is no possible way to improve them. i guess defeated is as good of description as any.  it is almost an inevitable destination after so many years of loneliness & being unwanted. imo it's not a matter of being perfect but instead of just being good enough and some people simply do not measure up.

I think you are confusing a solution with an improvement. These aren't always the same thing.
I do not know your situation, if you ever want to share just PM me.
I can honestly relate to the loneliness & feeling unwanted, I still dip into that mindset every now and then. Up and down like a yoyo tbh!
I don't quite understand the last bit, do you feel not perfect or measure up or are other people? If it's other people I can relate, I have high standards and ideals and am very much a perfectionist lol its not one but some of my downfalls hahaha
But at the same time I have felt how you feel. For what it's worth.

thanks for your reply. doesn't a true solution have to have an improved outcome though?  otherwise, why bother trying to change things at all?  

my situation is pretty simple really and i have described it in other threads. i am a short, bald, at best average looking male who has not had a single date in over 7 years (could be going on 8-i have lost count to tell you the truth).  i actually have a pretty good life outside of this one extremely critical issue which has been a lifetime struggle. being single by choice is one thing but being single due to being physically inferior and having zero options is a horrible curse which only gets far worse with age. 

this is also coming from someone who is not young-in fact, i am very likely one of the older posters on this board so it's not like the case of a young person who has not given it enough time.  i have pretty much improved myself in every way possible yet have still had zero results-and that was pre-covid.  just about every social outlet has been shut down going on a year now and things will not be getting back to "normal" anytime soon, if ever. i think whatever very slight chances i may have had have been shut down entirely at this point.

the bottom line is that i am very bitter in the knowledge that sometimes the only difference bewteen a decent life and a miserable one is a few inches of height & a few mm of facial structure. i think many people feel this way (yourself included) at some point or another but in my case i have many decades of trying to deal with it so rather than being a temporary phase it is pretty much all i know at this point. every atttempt to cope with it has just continued to make things worse so  i deeply regret each day, each week, each year knowing the precious time i am missing out on having someone to connect with and knowing that i very likely never will.  hope this helps you to understand where i am coming from, even a little.

 

[HypnoGhost]

i think your response pre-supposes that there are always viable solutions for everyone.  my own personal experience has shown that this is not the case and some people are just too flawed to ever find contentment or happiness.

There is always a solution to a problem.
It is not always seen or understood.
You sound very defeated?
Nobody's perfect.

i would disagree that there is always a solution.  some things just have to be lived with because there is no possible way to improve them. i guess defeated is as good of description as any.  it is almost an inevitable destination after so many years of loneliness & being unwanted. imo it's not a matter of being perfect but instead of just being good enough and some people simply do not measure up.

I think you are confusing a solution with an improvement. These aren't always the same thing.
I do not know your situation, if you ever want to share just PM me.
I can honestly relate to the loneliness & feeling unwanted, I still dip into that mindset every now and then. Up and down like a yoyo tbh!
I don't quite understand the last bit, do you feel not perfect or measure up or are other people? If it's other people I can relate, I have high standards and ideals and am very much a perfectionist lol its not one but some of my downfalls hahaha
But at the same time I have felt how you feel. For what it's worth.

Thanks for your reply. doesn't a true solution have to have an improved outcome though?  otherwise, why bother trying to change things at all?  

my situation is pretty simple really and i have described it in other threads. i am a short, bald, at best average looking male who has not had a single date in over 7 years (could be going on 8-i have lost count to tell you the truth).  i actually have a pretty good life outside of this one extremely critical issue which has been a lifetime struggle. being single by choice is one thing but being single due to being physically inferior and having zero options is a horrible curse which only gets far worse with age. 

this is also coming from someone who is not young-in fact, i am very likely one of the older posters on this board so it's not like the case of a young person who has not given it enough time.  i have pretty much improved myself in every way possible yet have still had zero results-and that was pre-covid.  just about every social outlet has been shut down going on a year now and things will not be getting back to "normal" anytime soon, if ever. i think whatever very slight chances i may have had have been shut down entirely at this point.

the bottom line is that i am very bitter in the knowledge that sometimes the only difference bewteen a decent life and a miserable one is a few inches of height & a few mm of facial structure. i think many people feel this way (yourself included) at some point or another but in my case i have many decades of trying to deal with it so rather than being a temporary phase it is pretty much all i know at this point. every atttempt to cope with it has just continued to make things worse so  i deeply regret each day, each week, each year knowing the precious time i am missing out on having someone to connect with and knowing that i very likely never will.  hope this helps you to understand where i am coming from, even a little.

No not at all, a solution is not always an improvement, it could just be a fresh perspective, looking at things a different way. It could also just be a side step.
I wouldn't go around judging yourself by how many dates you have had. Women are not the be all and end all in this world! 
Age is just a number, I personally do not keep count.
The reaction around the world to this "covid-19" has been blown massively out of proportion, and it's effects have been shown to be a thousand times more devastating than the virus itself (one can't help but think that it was partly the goal).
It does help me see, I see someone who struggles everyday to feel comfortable in their own skin, someone who I'd desperately searching for external validation. The only difference as you say between a decent life and a miserable life has nothing to do with external factors.
Judging yourself on how you look and validating yourself externally is a trap of this society.
Honestly, take it however you want but it is the truth, and this holds true for anyone reading this; you will not find that which you seek unless you make peace and find solace within yourself first.
Accept that you are good enough, tell yourself that you are good enough; because you are! Nobody else will tell you this, you have to tell yourself these things, this world has been designed and built on grinding down the weak and vulnerable, bending them over and building layers of fear upon their backs. There is so much truth to the phrase 'don't let the *******s grind you down'!
I can only say these things now because I have had the experience, I am turning back now with my torch trying to show others the way. I came here in the hopes that my experience helps others as it has helped me. And yes I still struggle, yes I still have bad days, very bad days. But not for shallow looks reasons or for not feeling good enough, why? Because I have accepted that I am good enough. And I don't listen to those who will try to knock me off my feet, because they are out there and they will try.
A few days ago I woke up at 4am missing and wanting to see one of my best friends who I can't see anymore, i cried from 4am till 9am and eventually wrote her a letter; Charlie died at 23, she was such a good friend and loved by many. If you could have seen us standing next to each other you would think we were polar opposites. She was a short skinny hippy and I was a tall broad red head boy racer. 
If you keep living your life by societies ideals then you're letting the *******s grind you down! 
It may sound counter intuitive but the key is to not give a fuc (a book in my to buy list which would help illustrate this is Here), just do what makes you happy. Find a hobby, just be yourself and when you are comfortable and unsuspecting, something will come along.
"The very act of observing changes the outcome" - Dr Quantum (Here)
Jordan Peterson on videos on YouTube helped me massively and still do today. (Mistakes men make, 12 Rules For Life, Try It For 1 Month)
The tools are out there.

 

[Abstamyous]

[youtube]Gpamw2BbrPc[/youtube]

 

[HypnoGhost]

[youtube]Gpamw2BbrPc[/youtube]

Tuuuune!
Great band 

 

[mgill]

There is always a solution to a problem.
It is not always seen or understood.
You sound very defeated?
Nobody's perfect.

i would disagree that there is always a solution.  some things just have to be lived with because there is no possible way to improve them. i guess defeated is as good of description as any.  it is almost an inevitable destination after so many years of loneliness & being unwanted. imo it's not a matter of being perfect but instead of just being good enough and some people simply do not measure up.

I think you are confusing a solution with an improvement. These aren't always the same thing.
I do not know your situation, if you ever want to share just PM me.
I can honestly relate to the loneliness & feeling unwanted, I still dip into that mindset every now and then. Up and down like a yoyo tbh!
I don't quite understand the last bit, do you feel not perfect or measure up or are other people? If it's other people I can relate, I have high standards and ideals and am very much a perfectionist lol its not one but some of my downfalls hahaha
But at the same time I have felt how you feel. For what it's worth.

Thanks for your reply. doesn't a true solution have to have an improved outcome though?  otherwise, why bother trying to change things at all?  

my situation is pretty simple really and i have described it in other threads. i am a short, bald, at best average looking male who has not had a single date in over 7 years (could be going on 8-i have lost count to tell you the truth).  i actually have a pretty good life outside of this one extremely critical issue which has been a lifetime struggle. being single by choice is one thing but being single due to being physically inferior and having zero options is a horrible curse which only gets far worse with age. 

this is also coming from someone who is not young-in fact, i am very likely one of the older posters on this board so it's not like the case of a young person who has not given it enough time.  i have pretty much improved myself in every way possible yet have still had zero results-and that was pre-covid.  just about every social outlet has been shut down going on a year now and things will not be getting back to "normal" anytime soon, if ever. i think whatever very slight chances i may have had have been shut down entirely at this point.

the bottom line is that i am very bitter in the knowledge that sometimes the only difference bewteen a decent life and a miserable one is a few inches of height & a few mm of facial structure. i think many people feel this way (yourself included) at some point or another but in my case i have many decades of trying to deal with it so rather than being a temporary phase it is pretty much all i know at this point. every atttempt to cope with it has just continued to make things worse so  i deeply regret each day, each week, each year knowing the precious time i am missing out on having someone to connect with and knowing that i very likely never will.  hope this helps you to understand where i am coming from, even a little.

No not at all, a solution is not always an improvement, it could just be a fresh perspective, looking at things a different way. It could also just be a side step.
I wouldn't go around judging yourself by how many dates you have had. Women are not the be all and end all in this world! 
Age is just a number, I personally do not keep count.
The reaction around the world to this "covid-19" has been blown massively out of proportion, and it's effects have been shown to be a thousand times more devastating than the virus itself (one can't help but think that it was partly the goal).
It does help me see, I see someone who struggles everyday to feel comfortable in their own skin, someone who I'd desperately searching for external validation. The only difference as you say between a decent life and a miserable life has nothing to do with external factors.
Judging yourself on how you look and validating yourself externally is a trap of this society.
Honestly, take it however you want but it is the truth, and this holds true for anyone reading this; you will not find that which you seek unless you make peace and find solace within yourself first.
Accept that you are good enough, tell yourself that you are good enough; because you are! Nobody else will tell you this, you have to tell yourself these things, this world has been designed and built on grinding down the weak and vulnerable, bending them over and building layers of fear upon their backs. There is so much truth to the phrase 'don't let the *******s grind you down'!
I can only say these things now because I have had the experience, I am turning back now with my torch trying to show others the way. I came here in the hopes that my experience helps others as it has helped me. And yes I still struggle, yes I still have bad days, very bad days. But not for shallow looks reasons or for not feeling good enough, why? Because I have accepted that I am good enough. And I don't listen to those who will try to knock me off my feet, because they are out there and they will try.
A few days ago I woke up at 4am missing and wanting to see one of my best friends who I can't see anymore, i cried from 4am till 9am and eventually wrote her a letter; Charlie died at 23, she was such a good friend and loved by many. If you could have seen us standing next to each other you would think we were polar opposites. She was a short skinny hippy and I was a tall broad red head boy racer. 
If you keep living your life by societies ideals then you're letting the *******s grind you down! 
It may sound counter intuitive but the key is to not give a fuc (a book in my to buy list which would help illustrate this is Here), just do what makes you happy. Find a hobby, just be yourself and when you are comfortable and unsuspecting, something will come along.
"The very act of observing changes the outcome" - Dr Quantum (Here)
Jordan Peterson on videos on YouTube helped me massively and still do today. (Mistakes men make, 12 Rules For Life, Try It For 1 Month)
The tools are out there.

that's a lot to take in so here are my thoughts.

every aspect of life is significantly enhanced by being in a healthy intimate relationship. the fact that i am not ggod enough to ever experience one has been the bane of my existence for as long as i can remember. this is also not coming from society telling me it is so as i have been an outlier in just about every way possible for as long as i can remember.

studies have proven that due to the Halo Effect, one's potential quality of life is based on how physically attractive they are and this is not only limited to dating & relationships but also includes employment, friendship & even family.  the reverse is the horn or devil effect which shows that the less attractive a person is the more they will struggle in just about everything.  these two effects have been increased by many orders of magintude due to social media & OLD so there has never been a worse time in history to be a below average male. i really don't need anyone to try and knock me off my feet as every failure & rejection reminds me of where i stand in the world.

i thought the way you do for years but discovered that while this may work for some but rather than being some kind of fundamental truth it is pretty much just delusion & distraction.  i have no doubt that the vast majority of my own issues are due entirely to being genetically inferior. like anything of value, we are only worth what others think we are. i can think i am a great person but if no one else agrees i will be alone & unwanted regardless what i may or may not think of myself.

i actually have many hobbies & interests but they only help to distract from my being such a loser so much.  when i am enjoying them i inevitably start to think how much better it would be if i had someone to enjoy them with and then i spiral into a deep depression when i remember that this is never going to happen.  the uncomfortable truth is that life is not made for everyone and some of us will go to our graves without ever having experiencing the most important things in life.  i am very sorry to hear about your friends death-that is a very young age to die at. as bad a sit can be for some, for others death can be a welcome release from the terrible angst of an emplty, lonely, hopeless extistence.

 

[Nicolelt]

Back to the OP, I agree, and actually the 5 rules were included in a Mental Health First Aid course I took recently for my job. Mental illness is so broad, that everyone has one. Even if you think you don't you fit into a spectrum of some sort of mental illness. It is completely normal, and completely okay. You most likely are never going to be "cured" of your mental illness, you have to learn to cope with it and live a good life with it. So with rule 1, telling someone to "just exercise" may work for you, but for that person it may not.

The rest of the rules to me state that we are not professionals in mental health. We can't save everyone, we cannot help everyone. I have for years tried to give advice on this forum, but it's never going to do any good TBH. I can tell all of you how my going to a professional, writing in journals, and truly being in the moment save my life and got me through the most horrific time where I lost everything I loved in one day, but it will NOT do you any good. You have to learn to cope and deal with your demons.

The only thing I can do is, listen to you without giving advice, check in on you, and be supportive and encouraging if you chose to get treatment or help.

 

[HypnoGhost]

Back to the OP, I agree, and actually the 5 rules were included in a Mental Health First Aid course I took recently for my job. Mental illness is so broad, that everyone has one. Even if you think you don't you fit into a spectrum of some sort of mental illness. It is completely normal, and completely okay. You most likely are never going to be "cured" of your mental illness, you have to learn to cope with it and live a good life with it. So with rule 1, telling someone to "just exercise" may work for you, but for that person it may not.

The rest of the rules to me state that we are not professionals in mental health. We can't save everyone, we cannot help everyone. I have for years tried to give advice on this forum, but it's never going to do any good TBH. I can tell all of you how my going to a professional, writing in journals, and truly being in the moment save my life and got me through the most horrific time where I lost everything I loved in one day, but it will NOT do you any good. You have to learn to cope and deal with your demons.

The only thing I can do is, listen to you without giving advice, check in on you, and be supportive and encouraging if you chose to get treatment or help.

Exercise does promote the release of dopamine in the body, much the same as fresh air nature walks and enjoyable activities. Even hugging someone for 20 seconds or more has been shown to massively increase these levels.

I have dispensed some advice here over the last few days since joining.
If you say you've been here for years doing so then I think it's time to quit while I'm ... ahead?
Thank you for your comment, it has helped me to understand.