I'm a 33 year old virgin male without even a date to my name.

[user 115627]

Is expecting a cisgender woman a "high standard" that needs be stated beforehand? Is it even a mere expectation or would it be akin to asking a heterosexual person to acknowledge homosexuals pursuing them as well? When most people are looking for women (or men for that matter), I believe they are expecting cisgender people and I don't know if that can simply be negotiated after the fact. Maybe we do need to be more precise in our language as long as the consequence is not automatically being accused of phobia just because bigots or TERFs would go out of their way to use similar language. At our current stage of medical and technological expertise and genuine bigotry aside, we are not at the stage where cis and trans is exactly the same, even if you are among people that are very accommodating and will acknowledge you as a woman. Unusual height aside (a legacy of male puberty oftentimes), you were passing very well in the pictures you shared, Aardra.

I don't know how to fix this discrepancy. Forgottendanfan can either apologize and acknowledge you or apologize and state that he meant cisgender women to begin with. I think it's hard to frame the expectation of somebody's "ideal woman" being cisgender as a high standard, but that's just me.

PS: I think "opposites attract" is often misinterpreted and people usually mean compatible and complementary traits, not opposites. They very much push each other away, instantly or in the long term.

 

[Aardra]

I think there's a misunderstanding here. If being trans is a dealbreaker for someone, that's absolutely valid. But my gender identity isn't the matter. The fact remains that he received a response from a woman, and so his notion that "nobody even messages" him is insincere at best. He got a response. It wasn't what he wanted or expected, but he got one.

I'm not going to accuse anyone of bigotry for having a preference. That would be utterly childish of me. Neither am I upset that my responses went unappreciated. I'm just annoyed that apparently, as far as women are concerned, I don't count. And him repeating this in thread after thread is making me feel more and more invalid.

That's all.

 

[user 115627]

I agree which is why I think he should still apologize for brushing over that fact and either acknowledge that he did get a response or admit that it does not count in his mind because he expected only cisgender women to begin with or woman = cisgender woman in his mind. Ultimately the outcome might be the same...but there would be clarity and honesty at least.

I also wanted to figure out what your and other people's stance is on trans being a dealbreaker - or not being perceived as what you'd like to be perceived as in general - as statements about "ideal woman" and "high standards" all got thrown into the mix here. So thanks for the elaboration.

 

[TheRealCallie]

The ideal woman and high standards (if you are referring to me) was entirely about dating sites. I'm sick of people saying that it's all a popularity content or that the women on there wouldn't possibly want someone like them or whatever they say. There ARE women on those sites that aren't looking for someone tall, dark and handsome. There are women on those sites that aren't shallow or supermodel sexy. So to say that there aren't is ********.
So all I can assume, since they say it so damn much, over and over again, is that they don't bother looking for anyone less than the women they claim are at fault. Which would make them just as bad as those women. Not to mention that even people with experience don't know what they want half the time, so how would someone with no experience. Who the **** cares if you are immediately attracted to someone or not. It's not always instant. Give people a chance before you just automatically say no, not my type. You never know what will happen or who you will find yourself loving.

As for the transgender stuff. The comments I made last night in this thread have nothing to do with it. It was entirely about dating sites.
I'm not sure if I would personally be willing to date a trans person, but I would at least get to know them Worst case scenario, I get a friend. Best case scenario, I realize that sometimes love transcends the **** your ancestors/family ingrained in your head.

 

[user 115627]

The ideal woman and high standards (if you are referring to me) was entirely about dating sites.  I'm sick of people saying that it's all a popularity content or that the women on there wouldn't possibly want someone like them or whatever they say.  There ARE women on those sites that aren't looking for someone tall, dark and handsome.  There are women on those sites that aren't shallow or supermodel sexy.  So to say that there aren't is ********. 
So all I can assume, since they say it so damn much, over and over again, is that they don't bother looking for anyone less than the women they claim are at fault. Which would make them just as bad as those women.  Not to mention that even people with experience don't know what they want half the time, so how would someone with no experience.  Who the **** cares if you are immediately attracted to someone or not.  It's not always instant.  Give people a chance before you just automatically say no, not my type.  You never know what will happen or who you will find yourself loving.

If people aren't just self-sabotaging by simply not sending any messages to women on these sites at all because they believe everyone is out of their league anyway, I think half the time (not literally) you still end up being invisible. I don't think it's all about tall, dark and handsome but if you combine the ratio, the lack of experience you're trying to be honest about and unfortunate algorithms that can put you in some low-quality bucket, you'll probably be fighting the odds. But I never had any faith in dating sites for anybody, be it when you hear the male experience of sitting in a desert desperate for a response (let alone someone initiating) or the female experience of having your inbox filled by guys that have way more of that dreadful confidence than is valid in combination with their copy-pasted lines.

As for instant attraction...I don't believe it works like that most of the time either, but the least you can do is read people's profiles and get an impression of who they are and what they're looking for. You'll have a harder time actually getting into a longer 1-on-1 conversation with anyone to really figure that one out. And obviously those sites aren't built in a way to get to know a person by reading their thoughts on many topics like you could on a forum. That is if we are talking about personality here. People say love has no boundaries but I think we all know it does and legality aside, I don't think anybody finds themselves judged for rejecting someone who is 50 years younger or older on or who has a different sexual orientation on the basis of "at least you got attention".

As for the transgender stuff.  The comments I made last night in this thread have nothing to do with it.  It was entirely about dating sites. 
I'm not sure if I would personally be willing to date a trans person, but I would at least get to know them. Worst case scenario, I get a friend.  Best case scenario, I realize that sometimes love transcends the **** your ancestors/family ingrained in your head.

Well...I'd only find it tricky on a dating site because most people go there to find romantic partners on purpose and while I'd also consider it a positive outcome to make a friend there by sheer happenstance, you don't want to be end up leading someone on because you thought your love could transcend but in the end it didn't.

 

[Aardra]

Well...I'd only find it tricky on a dating site because most people go there to find romantic partners on purpose and while I'd also consider it a positive outcome to make a friend there by sheer happenstance, you don't want to be end up leading someone on because you thought your love could transcend but in the end it didn't.

I hate that this needs to be said, but trans women aren't trying to trick you.

I despise throwing around the term "transphobia" but the thought that there's this epidemic of trans women trapping men into relationships under false pretenses is literally born of a fear of trans people. It's no different than someone wanting to post genital inspectors in every bathroom because they think trans women go through years of hormone therapy and dramatic surgeries all so we can peep at them in the stall (yes, I know people who believe this).

Every trans woman faces the dilemma of either telling a potential partner up front that she's trans (and thus risk immediate ostracization and embarrassment, not to mention immense dysphoria from a feeling of being othered); or don't, and risk being accused of "leading him on" (at best) or (at worst) being assaulted or killed. For that reason, every trans woman I know tells their dates that they're trans up front. I've seen Tinder profiles that insert "I am trans" into every other sentence just so the other person is 100% aware of it. It's easier for everyone, even if it makes us feel like ****, and it reduces the risk of being murdered over some dude's fragile masculinity.

EDIT: also I'm sorry to OP for further derailing his thread. I just felt compelled to respond.
EDIT 2: also I might have misread the spirit of that part of your comment, and I'm sorry if I did

 

[user 115627]

Well...I'd only find it tricky on a dating site because most people go there to find romantic partners on purpose and while I'd also consider it a positive outcome to make a friend there by sheer happenstance, you don't want to be end up leading someone on because you thought your love could transcend but in the end it didn't.

I hate that this needs to be said, but trans women aren't trying to trick you.

I despise throwing around the term "transphobia" but the thought that there's this epidemic of trans women trapping men into relationships under false pretenses is literally born of a fear of trans people. It's no different than someone wanting to post genital inspectors in every bathroom because they think trans women go through years of hormone therapy and dramatic surgeries all so we can peep at them in the stall (yes, I know people who believe this).

Every trans woman faces the dilemma of either telling a potential partner up front that she's trans (and thus risk immediate ostracization and embarrassment, not to mention immense dysphoria from a feeling of being othered); or don't, and risk being accused of "leading him on" (at best) or (at worst) being assaulted or killed. For that reason, every trans woman I know tells their dates that they're trans up front. I've seen Tinder profiles that insert "I am trans" into every other sentence just so the other person is 100% aware of it. It's easier for everyone, even if it makes us feel like ****, and it reduces the risk of being murdered over some dude's fragile masculinity.

EDIT: also I'm sorry to OP for further derailing his thread. I just felt compelled to respond.
EDIT 2: also I might have misread the spirit of that part of your comment, and I'm sorry if I did

Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to imply that because I know that is a behavior that transwomen in particular are accused of, but that's more like conservative and TERF/Radfem paranoia since they see you as predatory men in dresses. In fact, I hardly hear accusations like that thrown at transmen, same with the bathroom scaremongering, and I think we both know why that's the case.

What I was trying to say in what you quoted is that I wouldn't want people, even with good intentions, thinking they can just will themselves to be open-minded and attraction to a trans person will develop and that they will get over whatever preference, predisposition or prejudice they have. They could end up leading the trans person along because they overestimated their own open-mindedness and fluidity. And this is not specific to the trans status even, you could be trying to get over a sizable age gap and end up realizing that it just isn't working out. You don't want to be weeks and months into dating, let alone a relationship, when that happens.

I understand that dilemma and I also think that clearly stating it upfront is preferable, because the pros outweigh the cons in comparison to not saying anything. The most extreme outcomes aside (murder), I don't know if potentially not feeling valid is worse than not telling someone and ultimately being rejected for that even in the most sincere way possible. It remains a raw deal either way. There are still differences between a cisgender and transgender woman - whether that barrier is crossed someday, I don't know, just like I don't know how much of our sexuality is hard-coded and how much is conditioned.

PS: Sorry for further derail too, but it's an interesting topic and I wouldn't want to leave it unanswered either.

 

[ardour]

Every trans woman faces the dilemma of either telling a potential partner up front that she's trans (and thus risk immediate ostracization and embarrassment, not to mention immense dysphoria from a feeling of being othered); or don't, and risk being accused of "leading him on" (at best) or (at worst) being assaulted or killed.

Honesty about that would just be a matter of consideration for the other person though.

 

[ewomack]

I had a friend years ago - I think the friendship statute of limitations has since expired - who consumed a lot of ****ography and had a vision of what a woman "should" look like in his head. He used to complain endlessly to me about not having a girlfriend and how the women he was interested in never returned his interest, etc. As we grew to know each other, he started inviting me to after-hours parties with people from his work. Among them sat a woman he never stopped talking about and that night I finally saw her. Now, my friend wouldn't have won any beauty contests, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with him, either. Yet, this woman he fixated on probably would have won beauty contests and I watched as guy after guy approached her and hit on her during a few of these gatherings. I sensed that my friend, who I cared about at the time, might not have set himself on a road to happiness. I did encourage him to try talking to her, because you never know, but given the kind of guys that she seemed to talk to and the kind that she turned away from, my friend probably wouldn't have met her standards, sadly. Possibly for the better, he could never scrounge up the courage to say more than work small talk to her.

The obsession continued and I started to suggest that he expand his horizons, possibly look elsewhere, maybe even for various other kinds of women. I also tried to suggest that his ****ography addiction probably skewed his standards. The liklihood of him dating, much less meeting, a centerfold, seemed pretty bleak. He didn't like hearing any of this and more than once he became angry with me and pounded his fists against a table. So I changed the subject.

Then one day he called and said that a woman at work had approached him to go to lunch. Though he wasn't sure, he suspected that she might want to date him. I congratulated him, encouraged him to accept and overall tried to support him. But he then said "well, I don't know. She's not exactly in great shape or a beauty queen." Now, this would also exactly describe my friend, who was neither in great shape nor a beauty queen. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince him to accept and whenever I brought this woman up he would make a slight gagging noise. Gradually, he grew immediately angry if I asked about her, one time shouting "you never encouraged me to go out with the hot girl, but now you're encouraging me to go out with this fat and not really attractive girl, what's the deal?" I found myself in somewhat of a snafu, but managed to scrouge up "I didn't see you having a happy relationship with that other 'hot' girl because every guy seemed to want to date her, plus, you wouldn't even talk to her, remember? Plus, what's the harm in just going out to lunch with the other woman?"

Sadly, from what I know, he never accepted the lunch offer and our friendship fell apart not too long after that. A part of me thinks that he felt insulted that I didn't try to help him get the "hot" girl. Given what I saw of his interaction with the object of his lust, she wanted absolutely nothing to do with him. She treated him exactly like the other guys that she brushed off, but he never took the time to see this (or didn't want to see it). Yet he had an opportunity right in front of him that he decided to ignore.

In the end, despite one's looks or "experience," there will likely be someone out there who has an interest. It might take a while to find that person, but giving up or nurturing blocking preconceptions will guarantee that it doesn't happen. Go out and seek, accept the failures and heartbreak, but don't give up. Even "experienced" people get turned down, have crappy relationships, or find themselves single for a time. It won't matter in in the long run.

 

[SirPanda]

Congratulations, welcome to the club.

 

[Xpendable]

IMO if a girl likes you it doesn't matter. But if she doesn't  then she wants something more than just you. This "something" could be anything including sexual experience. (I suppose that works for both genders)

I don't think I know any woman who really cares about partner's experience but I don't know all the women. Also I think if a woman has no or little experience she may prefer the same man.

This.  Also, I think it would be refreshing to date a guy without experience.  No ex drama, no chance of STDs, etc etc.  And unless you live under a rock, it's not like you don't know the basics, so who cares.

And the problem with it is that I could tell you I'm that guy, but you have a magnificent card to play and just say "but you have shown me I can't like your personality" and safely deflect from any accusation of superficiality. It's quite clever, actually.

 

[TheRealCallie]

IMO if a girl likes you it doesn't matter. But if she doesn't  then she wants something more than just you. This "something" could be anything including sexual experience. (I suppose that works for both genders)

I don't think I know any woman who really cares about partner's experience but I don't know all the women. Also I think if a woman has no or little experience she may prefer the same man.

This.  Also, I think it would be refreshing to date a guy without experience.  No ex drama, no chance of STDs, etc etc.  And unless you live under a rock, it's not like you don't know the basics, so who cares.

And the problem with it is that I could tell you I'm that guy, but you have a magnificent card to play and just say "but you have shown me I can't like your personality" and safely deflect from any accusation of superficiality. It's quite clever, actually.

This would imply that everyone would be romantically interested in you. That's not true.  Sometimes things just don't go that way, whether on the guy's (with or without experience) side or the female's side. 

Not every woman is an evil ******* liar.

 

[Xpendable]

I'm confused. I dont think you understood my reply

 

[Aardra]

I think a big problem in these threads is the mentality that if a girl doesn't like you, it's because she "wants more." This puts the impetus on you. Stop thinking that way.

You know, it's possible that a girl just isn't into you and it has nothing to do with your "lack" of anything. It's not that she wants something more, just something different.

 

[ardour]

I think a big problem in these threads is the mentality that if a girl doesn't like you, it's because she "wants more." This puts the impetus on you. Stop thinking that way.

You know, it's possible that a girl just isn't into you and it has nothing to do with your "lack" of anything. It's not that she wants something more, just something different.

We'd be  more willing to accept the individual preference argument if there seemed to be equal numbers of women into shy, awkward men as there were into dominant men, but that's clearly not reality. Traits like confidence, assertiveness, etc. usually get mentioned first whenever women discuss what's attractive to them.

Add to this, shy women's tendency to go for their opposite. Depressed or plain introverted men are all but cut out of dating when even the 'female equivalent' doesn't want them.

 

[Abstamyous]

When you find the right one, none of this is going to matter anymore

 

[Xpendable]

Such an empty statement.

 

[ardour]

Indeed.

 

[el Jay]

If you find the right one, none of this is going to matter anymore

Fixed that for you. Not everyone finds someone, and even those that do don't always find it in time to avoid a lot more loneliness than other people have to endure, and don't always get as much time with that person as they'd want.

Get that empty feel-good ******** out of here, please.

 

[Abstamyous]

I have a lot of respect for you guys. We don't have to agree. But I see your value here.