Wow, you really enjoy picking on details. Funny thing - I do too.
Skorian said:
So now you are assaulting the very basis of opinion and rendering opinion worthless?
Nope. I applaud opinions. What I'm rendering worthless is "I'm right and you're wrong because I say so" arguments. I don't mind people telling me that I'm wrong about something, but I won't take it seriously unless they can include a rational explanation as to WHY they think I'm wrong. Things like "you've already made up your mind so I won't bother trying to explain anything that you refuse to understand" does NOT equal an explanation. This is nothing but an insult, an accusation and an (often wrong and misguided) assumption about a person you don't know at all.
Skorian said:
Why would I want to go any further then I already am? It is pretty hard to prove something that people are set to disagree on. Butter isn't butter if someone declares that it isn't. I mean I know something is butter, but saying anything past that point is pointless.
I'm assuming that when you say "go any further", you're talking about explaining your opinions any further (correct me if I'm wrong). Yes, sometimes proving your points can be hard. There are several reasons as to why this is. Maybe the person has, as you say, decided to disagree with you no matter what. Maybe the person has trouble understanding certain things, and just need a better explanation. Maybe your explanation wasn't clear enough. Maybe there are linguistic issues breaking up the line. Or maybe the point you're trying to prove isn't really all that accurate after all. Or a combination of two or more of the above. One thing is for sure, though; if you dismiss other people after having just made one argument by saying "you've already made up your mind anyway" or "you're not smart enough to comprehend this", then you will most likely never get your point across, in which case I don't really see the point of posting on a debate forum at all. You mention you enjoy politics. Is this how politicans debate - with "because I say so" and "you're too stupid to understand what I say"? Hmm, come to think of it, maybe it is. That would make sense.
No, you are not right. I repeated the point I was making repeatedly. Then to clarify actually said that I had. In part, because some people do what is happening here. All this, really does not make sense to me... Thanks for defining understanding and communication difficulties... Does anyone not know? If you are really going to do this, then why not pull out the text book definition? You fell right into what I said before about taking slights at everything. If you disagree with me then that is your choice. Be my guest though, argue for the sake of arguing. I will warn you, I will just play with it pointlessly. I already said my opinion, and explained. And now this is mincing words into ten thousand pieces. It doesn't really make sense.
Skorian said:
This is just plan wrong. It sounds rather like a circular argument. I am not upset by it at all. I am not a child that can't handle disagreement.
What, exactly, was it that was plain wrong about what I said there? The "sorry"? The fact that I could use your own debating technique against you? Or the fact that doing so wouldn't be constructive? I also don't understand why you're saying that you're not upset by it, and that you're not a child. Have I implied either of those things?
I am not going back to look at what was said. And I am the one who declared that I wasn't upset or a child.
Skorian said:
The problem comes in that some people have to be treated as if they are "special"....
No, the problem comes in that some people enjoy hurting other people's feelings. The problem comes in that some people get a confidence boost by making others feel like crap about themselves. This is the very core of being a bully; they pick a weak spot to lash out on, so that they can feel stronger, cooler and better. And in the question of who has the personality defect, the bully or the person who gets bullied, you claim that it is the one who gets bullied? You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but it sure as hell makes no sense to me.
There are many kinds of bullies. Who says that all bullies do it to boost confidence? I don't think if you look at the world that, that is really correct. I was just looking at the wikipedia definition of bullying and they don't even mention confidence in what I saw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying So you are arguing against a definition that doesn't actually exist? Now yes, I have heard that some people behave as bullies because they feel better by lowering other peoples sense of self. I think bullies do what they do because humans are not that different from dogs and some people instinctively want to establish a pecking order. There are so many reasons why people act as bullies though, that to stick to your small definition is flawed.
We live in a world of bullies. The world is all about position. There is little place for weakness if you really want to be in the world. Granted many people ignore this and live fine oblivious, but really still need to face it. For example, every American was robed by what wall street tycoons did in the last few years. That is a kind of bullying. Bullying for money. So do I think it is a defect to bend over and not take them to court? You bet.
If you have a problem with bullying, well it will always exist. Always. It is better to stand up to bullying then tell people that the bullying is the bullies fault.
Skorian said:
I don't think there is sense in people verbally attacking each other, but when you draw the line that you do, alot of meaningful communication can not be accomplished. For one, pain is a part of life. Not being able to handle some pain is a problem.
What line is it that I draw, exactly, that disables meaningful communication? Please elaborate, if you can. And yes, I know that pain is a part of life - that doesn't make it okay for people to knowingly bring it upon others when it has no purpose what so ever. Would you be okay with it if someone walked over to you, punched you in the gut for no reason, and said "ignore the pain; it's a part of life"? I agree that not being able to handle some pain is a problem, but I don't see how that's relevant to this thread, or to this forum. It seems odd to me that someone would join a forum like ALL which, basically, is a place where people can complain and vent about the pain in their lives, only to criticize them for doing so. From what I have read, most of the users in here are handling their pain (which in some cases is a lot more than "some") rather well.
You draw a line saying hurtful things should not be done. That is what it sounds like and what some people seem to believe. This is the trap that many in mental health get themselves into as pain is often part of everyone's learning process. One example is that some people want to abolish a school grading system because it is hurtful for someone to fail. I disagree. Just as an example the argument that you are making goes against the grading system in schools, even if you don't realize it.
If someone insulted me I wouldn't care, but then being physically attacked is alot harder to ignore. Someone can kill a person without meaning to. But instead of saying, if someone insulted me, you compare words to physical pain. That tells me that you are unable to take responsibility for your reaction to words. You have a hard time making a distinction. That is your problem, not the worlds and some day you will have to face that. So yes, I think that people need to take responsibility to how they react to hearing things they don't like. It is good to be supportive, but people need to face the fact that life is about listening and facing what you don't want to hear. There is alot to be learned by learning what doesn't feel good at the time. Sometimes that pain is a direct barrier to learning. It can keep people from learning what they need to.
Skorian said:
Yes, but the distinction is the difference between being hit by a car and a gnat bite. If people can't handle a gnat then they have a problem.
So what if something is painful. I used to know a guy who has to take painkillers for life because he has damaged nerves. I didn't hear him constantly complaining even though his life is a mess. He did the best he could and lived with it. What he experienced was pain.
Words for as much as they can hurt, only have power if you let them. Hurtful words can actually not hurt at all.
Where is it coming from, this about "not being able to handle"? Who says that they're not handling it? I'm not saying that there aren't worse things in the world than being attacked by a forum troll, but for those who does get hurt by their [the trolls'] mean comments, this pain is as real as anything else.
Declaring that an insult is the same as a bullet is not facing the fact that insults are not the same as a bullet, or a punch, kick, being tripped. I would much rather be insulted then pounded on. A sprained ankle may heal, but it is much harder to deal with then being called a name. It does not help people to tell them that they shouldn't have to face not always being liked. Or that people don't have a right to say things they don't want to hear.
There is also a distinction between being insulted by someone you hardly know and someone you respect or know well.
While I don't see a problem with being supportive of people who need it when they can't handle a random stranger insulting them. They also need to hear that it is actually a bit absurd. Because it is.
Everyone experience pain, and they handle it differently. We also have different levels of pain tolerance. I had a patient once, with a broken nose, who didn't even want anaesthesia before it was set back in place; he found the procedure unpleasant, but not unbearable. Good for him! Another patient with a broken nose, however, wasn't as lucky. He had a much lower level of pain tolerance, and cried out during the procedure even after getting the anaesthesia. It wasn't that he didn't "handle" it, he was simply more sensitive to pain. People are wired differently. Pain and the degree of pain is subjective. This is why you can't really say that "your pain isn't real".
And here you are again arguing of real pain that can send someone into physical shock. I guess the question is can people be taught to deal with pain? How important is that? Where do you draw the line? There are differences between physical and psychological pain. Some really big differences. There are many people who refuse to look at that because it makes them face things they don't want to face.
Skorian said:
The only opinion that should matter is your own opinion. The fact that someone says something nasty? Who really cares? All you have to do is think about something else and it can't do much. Words only have power if you give them power. That isn't true of physical things that can cause harm.
I agree with your first sentence there. The only opinion that SHOULD matter is your own. For most people, however, this is not so. For some reason, other peoples' opinions matter. We all (well, maybe not you?) want to be liked by others, loved by others, thought well of by others, because this is perceived as a recognition of our worth. We have insecurities about ourselves, our abilities, our worth, and when someone, no matter who, tramples on these insecurities, it hurts. When someone, no matter who, pays us a compliment, we feel good about ourselves. Of course we all know that we can't be liked by EVERYBODY, but that doesn't make it any more pleasant to have something hurtful thrown in our faces. It's really that simple.
How much is that actually worth? People can be wrong. People can be fooled. People can lie. I don't know about you, but there are people that if they compliment me, I take it as an insult. If a gangsta told me I was cool. Sorry, but that is an insult. I can think of several cases where compliments are actually insults.
What you are talking about is largely a learned and cultural value. Just because people are some way doesn't automatically make it right. I think people should especially question their need to be liked by someone they don't even know. What if the person insulting you is an American Nazi? Do you really need to be liked by them?
Skorian said:
I have more then 15 years experience of being online. I have been a member of dozens of forums. If you don't know what I am saying, then it is pretty hard to go beyond that. You lack experience of different groups of people. Try going onto a war game forum and behaving like what is termed a carebear... People will tease you. People that play a war game and want to play it their way, rather then as a war game are teased. Carebears usually are players that are really touchy feely and are deemed a problem. They are seen as not being with it or knowing what they are doing. It is like they want to walk into a football field in the middle of a game and get in the way of the players and expect the game to end for their sake. That is the best direct example I can think of atm. I haven't used any other forums in over a year that I can think of. Probably have, but none regularly.
First, you didn't actually answer my question. Which things that have been said on this forum would have been considered
trolling (see definition of "trolling" at the end of post) on one of this other forums, e.g. that war game forum? was the question. I'm not talking about people joining a forum not suited for them (if you find a forum where people are mean to each other, and you don't like that sort of thing, then you don't join said forum). But you don't have to answer that. By not answering it the first time, you've sort of given your answer after all.
I don't always choose perfect wording. What do you think would happen if you put members of this forum on a business forum? Or a forum where people are discussing different medicines, vitamins, minerals, amino acids? Or a game forum? How about a forum dedicated to answering computer questions? Or a movie discussion forum? Or a forum for talking about models? Of course you could sugar coat your words. I am not saying that people shouldn't be supportive, but people do need to hear more opinions then only support once in a while. Sometimes it seems like people seriously lack perspective on what they are doing. There are some things on this forum that I would say are unhealthy and do not help people face the real world. For as much as some people want to be told that they are never wrong, it isn't the truth. For as nice as it is to think that everything should feel good, it really shouldn't. Maybe they get enough in the real world. I will simply say that some people latch onto pain and wallow in it. Some of that goes on here. Some people spend a huge amount of their time pointing their finger at painful things. So today, or yesterday now... I decided to say, "hey, stop it". Actually that is why I left long ago. There are mods on this forum that seem to want this forum to be a rubber room and think that is healthy. I do not agree.
Part of growing is pain. Dealing with adversity. It is hard because there are people that use this forum that go berserk over small things. And there are people who feel too afraid to post because people will disagree with them. You want to help them, but telling them that these unreal expectations are ok anywhere in the world, is really not what they need. It is fine to be supportive, but they also need a dose of the real world. I will stop here, or this could get real long.
Second, as I briefly mentioned, there are billions of different forums out there, for different people, and nobody should join a forum that doesn't use the same level of "netiquette" as they do, or who centers around a topic they're not interested in. For instance, I'd never join a forum about babies, because I couldn't care less about that stuff, and I also wouldn't join a war game forum where everyone was being rude and mean to each other, because I prefer a nicer and friendly tone. I bring enough negative comments and impulses to my own life; I don't need more of it from people online.
And your comment about war games... Is it actually rude to want to be able to play the game? If two people sit down to play chess and someone takes your pieces away, because is too mean to play? Should you let them? It is kind of weird to see, but people try to basically do just that. That can actually be a real problem. So you try to be nice, but that doesn't work. After a point you have to stomp on people to get them to stop. You then get players who go in from the start gunning "carebear killer" as a natural solution. Many people are super nice, but will stomp on anyone who tries to break their game.
What I am saying is that there are people here who would say, no don't take their chess pieces away, but if they were on a war game would go and try to do just that. They would be seen as a troll. I guess my point is that just because someone is mean does not make them a troll, even if you want to say that they are. It is about having perspective. I guess what I find interesting is that people can't handle hearing the opposite of what they want to hear. Do you really even think it is about being right or wrong? I think it is a matter of perspective and being able to deal with that. What good is being right, or wrong? Do you even think you know half the time? Probably 50% of anything anyone says or believes is wrong.
Third, you know nothing about me. You say that I "lack experience of different groups of people", yet you have absolutely nothing to base that assumption on except that I disagree with you on a couple of issues. I've also got more than 15 years of experience being online, and ALL is in no way the first forum I've ever been on. I do know what you're saying, but I don't agree with it - so far, this is partly because you haven't actually tried to explain your opinions.
Oh well.
Skorian said:
If someone doesn't understand what I am saying, they really aren't going to. I know where you are coming from, but as I already said, disagree. Words are powerless beyond the power that you give them. Especially when you are talking about what someone you don't know says. Why does a random strangers opinion matter?
They're certainly not going to understand what you're saying when you refuse to explain it to them. People would have a poor ability to make up their own minds about something, if all a stranger had to do was walk up to them and say "You're wrong; the sun is blue, not yellow" and they replied "okay, if you say so".
People do this all the time. Do you think you always know when you are wrong? What I am saying is, I have an awareness of what ignorance is and know I can't fix it. Those two things are huge. Everyone is ignorant. You don't even focus on the main point I made. And I saw that. I guess one weird thing I will do sometimes is go two directions to see if people are watching when they seem to not be. One is to answer a direct question/problem and the other is to deviate to see how people respond. It gives me a feel for who people are. It is rather a trick question that is an existential question. It is sort of an if/then. If people follow the if rather then the point, then it shows me they are looking to undercut what I am saying. Only they will end up mangled by trying to follow an existential question. It is by choice. I don't make anyone do it. It also has another point, that is to try to get people to look at what they are saying. Instead of facing the fact that people give words power, you ran off here. Right off the page. Why?
It won't work to state your opinions and not explain where they're coming from, if you actually want others to understand them. If you don't care whether or not others understand them, then why post them at all?
It takes a very strong and confident mind to simply decide that "I'm not going to let these mean words hurt me". If your mind is that strong, then congratulations, you're a mentally tougher person than most people. The rest of us, however, will most likely live with the fact that others opinions do matter, to a certain extent, and that painful words are, in fact, painful. In theory I agree with your "words are powerless beyond the power that you give them" - it's just not always that easy to follow. Admittedly, I wouldn't care as much if a 5 year old called me stupid, as if my university professor did. When random strangers on a forum are being mean to me for no reason, I usually get mad instead of sad. I don't feel hurt, I feel the urge to combat the injustice in his actions. I'm not a very sensitive person when it comes to online stuff; instead, I'm overly sensitive regarding other things. Such is life; people are different. What you consider pain isn't always what I consider pain, and vice versa. But no matter how much we argue about pain tolerance and the importance of words, I'm sure of one thing: A troll is a troll. A troll is (by urbandictionary.com) defined as follows:
At least you comment on my point.
"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."
You might think that judging who's a troll and not is completely subjective, and you're entitled to that opinion. To me, however, this description leaves little room for doubt when I encounter one, as I find it quite easy to tell when messages are deliberately provocative. It's just a matter of observation and analysis.
And in case you're wondering; no, I don't believe you are a troll.
When you have different groups of people seeing trolls as different things... It is like declaring. I don't like that opinion.... call them a name. I guess I also have problems with the show Dexter and justifying murder. While I find the show sort of interesting if sick, Dexter is scum. You could say that the very term trolling or calling someone a troll, is being a troll.
And my point really was not about what a troll is, as much as peoples responsibility for how they deal with things they disagree with. People point their finger at a troll, but their reaction is really the problem. That is a major issue on this forum. When people curl up into the fetal position because someone is perceived as mean...
I have seen people who spoke what I would say is the truth, dubbed a troll on this forum. Truth can hurt. Does that mean that truth is a troll?
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