Perfect example of how society feels about beauty (or lack of)

[Nicolelt]

I think it is more how you interact with people than your credentials though.

But the core issue still remains, regardless of how you interact.
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Yea, but if this rich guy with a PhD and all this great stuff is an *******, I want nothing to do with him. Even if he wines and dines me, and is a prick to everyone else, I want nothing to do with them.

I don't think you can pin point one thing that makes people desirable or not though.

 

[Xpendable]

As Nicole said, why are you relying on society to tell you whether you can have confidence or not? What other people think of you is none of your business.

I'm not relying, I can't help it -we can't- Any sociologist and anthropologist would tell you the same.

I'm not equating anything to anything. You need confidence (which results in higher self esteem) to be able to do anything.

It seems you haven't read too much of what I've said. You didn't agree with why I said, so you called me negative, then you naturally associated negativity with lack of self-esteem. You have this preconceived rationalization that forms a confirmation bias when it comes to confidence with no evidence whatsoever.

...based on the fact that you think society should influence how much confidence you should have makes me think that you don't have much...

I don't "think" it does. I don't defend any of this. That's how sociology works. I don't like it but that doesn't mean I have to deny it.

Stop looking at all the negatives in life, start having confidence in yourself and see what happens.

Wow, you make me feel invisible here too, by ignoring what I just wrote.

You're right, I don't know that, but it's unlikely the girl would have went for him if he didn't have at least a little. Granted, she could have felt sorry for him, but still. How did they meet? They had to talk at some point in time to realize they wanted to be together.

As I said: Random and arbitrary.

Perhaps, but they will all border on the same meaning.

Wishful thinking again.

Arrogance is basically TOO MUCH confidence, wouldn't you agree?

Actually , I think arrogance is a masquerade from having no confidence. Arrogant people often have a very fragile ego.

My ex and I were together for 12 years, but guess what, an *******, just like a tiger, can rarely change their stripes.

An ******* can get a 12 year relationship. That's depressing to hear for someone like me. But I guess you thought he had confidence so it doesn't matter.

lol, are you serious? Perhaps you need to look around a little more, because it is being said to women too.

But they don't have to comply. There will always be more lonely men.

Sure, go ahead and have your "fat acceptance movement."

I never said that. I'm actually skinny.

People tell "unattractive" women all the time to improve.

Show me. I mean moral improvement, not just physical. Show me a campaign telling women to be better human beings. Show me how many dating coaches for women exsit in relation on how many coaches for men exist. Show me how many books for dating exist for women and soo on. This is not a victimization game, but you have to admit society expect less from women when it comes to personal development.

Why can't YOU tell yourself that you're okay now you can have nice things?

I can (and I've done it), it doesn't mean it would happen.

Why do you need to rely on outside forces?

People here tell others all the time that they are good enough, that they can have what they want with hard work, is that not enough?

Instant contradiction.

Not a single one of us is perfect and no one ever will be.

Never said that.

But yeah, it is 100% your fault if you aren't happy. Yes, bad things might happen to you, but that doesn't mean you have to let it drag you down. That doesn't mean it has to make your life stop. Life goes on, change what you can, accept what you can't.

I think you're underestimating the calibre of "bad things" that can happen to a person. Also, my life has never stopped, I can't just pretend to be fine all the time. There still things in this world that make me happy and give me hope. But it's really irresponsible to say that there aren't forces in this world that you can't control, and that can influence your entire existence. I would like to be more optimistic but life has crushed me so many times that I can't have too much faith anymore.

You can say that you don't see yourself as different from others, but given what you've said, I'm not sure I believe that. Deep down, you DO feel different, because you feel invisible. It sounds like you think that conforming to what society thinks you should be, that you should get what "everyone else" has.

I admitted I was different (indirectly), I just said I didn't look different at first view. And by that I know I can't have what "everyone else" has because I'm being myself. Because my way of being is too problematic to be considered attractive. I'm a very likeable person, but there's when is stops. I feel I have all this other qualities but no one dares to go deeper with me because they can't pass my exterior.

To owning who you really are and saying a proverbial **** you to those that don't accept it.

I've done that. It made be even more rejected precisely because I don't conform.

You said yourself right there, that you are look for acceptance, but where the acceptance in yourself? Where's the pride and...wait for it....confidence in yourself? WHY do you need the approval of others?

I accepted myself long time ago. Didn't change anything. I don't need acceptance from everyone, just one person would be enough. I'm still looking...

You aren't confident, you make too much of a conscious effort to make yourself look perfect, but that's impossible.

I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm just investing to make myself good enough to someone -ANYONE-. I'm conscious of what I do because I already have a lot of disadvantages with my persona. I'm just looking for ONE person.. It's all I need. I figured out that if I'm being rejected then I should be better. BETTER not perfect. Sadly, I have to guide myself for what society considers as better, because they are the one who judge me. I'll be glad to find someone who can accept me for what I am. It hasn't happened yet.

Not only because no one is perfect, but because the harder you try to make people see that you are fun and fantastic, the more people will see through the charade. You may think you are hiding it extremely well, but in my experience, you aren't. (again, that's a generalized you)

The only thing I hide is my pain, I am what I am because I didn't feel lonely all my life and I do what I do because I like it. It's not a charade. I HAVE to stand up straight because I have a small scoliosis, I HAVE to speak consciously because I have a slight speech impediment, I HAVE to acquire knowledge because I'm naturally curious. That's me, and somewhere in the line I started suffering from loneliness. I though if I keep improving then maybe people would want to be around me again, and looked me beyond a human commodity, but It hasn't happened. I'm not fake, if that's what your saying. I'm actually comfortable with who I am in the inside. Not 100% but who is anyway?

Yes, I do know how it feels to constantly evaluate every single thing I say before I say it. Once upon a time, I had no confidence, I didn't think I could still be a person without the acceptance of others, so I do know exactly how, what you are describing, feels.

My point here was that it seems that the most slight flaw got me rejected every time. It's not that my confidence suffered for being rejected. It's that the rejection itself was so severe that I couldn't understand how other people would head ahead socially by being a lot worse. It just takes an awkward moment, a flat joke, a misplaced smile to be filed for life as undesirable. And at the same time, I looked other people ******* things up badly but being forgiven anyway, and that makes me feel like ****. Because I can't understand why I get treated different, why it takes so little to discard me when I never hurt anyone.

But, one day, after a **** ton of hard work, I'd wager the hardest work I've ever done, I realized that it doesn't matter if believe like what I say or not. I'm 100% honest in everything I say. Everything I say, I believe. So why does it matter if others don't agree? It is unlikely to change my way of thinking or what I believe. So yeah, it doesn't matter, I say what I want, when I want and to hell with anyone that doesn't like it. I do my best to be respectful to others, but sometimes, people don't want to hear things and will attack you because they see what I am saying as offensive or that I don't understand. I understand a lot more than people realize.

Sorry to say, but that sounds like delusion. You just decided to close your ears and believe whatever made you feel better. That's ok I guess, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. But I think that looking for truth is more important that looking for happiness. Sometimes it can be the same.

Of course confidence can't change your environment, but it can change how people perceive you.

But who cares what others think of me, right?

Life is unfair, that's pretty much a proven fact and I don't think anyone will dispute that. But so what? That's not going to change just because you think it's unequal or unfair,

Is not going to change because you think is not unequal or unfair either.

so why put so much thought and effort into it? As I said earlier, change what you can, accept what you can't.

On it. Still nothing.

 

[Nicolelt]

so why put so much thought and effort into it? As I said earlier, change what you can, accept what you can't.

On it. Still nothing.

It takes some time. You have to take small steps.

 

[VanillaCreme]

As Nicole said, why are you relying on society to tell you whether you can have confidence or not? What other people think of you is none of your business.

I'm not relying, I can't help it -we can't- Any sociologist and anthropologist would tell you the same.

You can help it. We have the choice to decide whose opinion and words matter in our lives. The fact that you then say any sociologist or anthropologist would tell someone that we can't... That kind of proves the point that it can be helped.

 

[Xpendable]

You can help it. We have the choice to decide whose opinion and words matter in our lives. The fact that you then say any sociologist or anthropologist would tell someone that we can't... That kind of proves the point that it can be helped.

We can try to help it, like a conscious decision. I may try to help being influenced by the idiosyncrasy of the society in which I was born, but just because you chose to fight something doesn't mean you can defeat it completely. What I mean with sociologist and anthropologist is that they know the way social pressure is deeply ingrained in our psychology. You can never get rid of how society influences your self-esteem. Not entirely.

 

[VanillaCreme]

You can help it. We have the choice to decide whose opinion and words matter in our lives. The fact that you then say any sociologist or anthropologist would tell someone that we can't... That kind of proves the point that it can be helped.

We can try to help it, like a conscious decision. I may try to help being influenced by the idiosyncrasy of the society in which I was born, but just because you chose to fight something doesn't mean you can defeat it completely. What I mean with sociologist and anthropologist is that they know the way social pressure is deeply ingrained in our psychology. You can never get rid of how society influences your self-esteem. Not entirely.

But you can fight it. And on a personal level, for me, no - society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

 

[Nicolelt]

You can help it. We have the choice to decide whose opinion and words matter in our lives. The fact that you then say any sociologist or anthropologist would tell someone that we can't... That kind of proves the point that it can be helped.

We can try to help it, like a conscious decision. I may try to help being influenced by the idiosyncrasy of the society in which I was born, but just because you chose to fight something doesn't mean you can defeat it completely. What I mean with sociologist and anthropologist is that they know the way social pressure is deeply ingrained in our psychology. You can never get rid of how society influences your self-esteem. Not entirely.

But you can fight it. And on a personal level, for me, no - society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

I still don't understand how it can.

 

[Xpendable]

society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

Right...

 

[VanillaCreme]

society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

Right...

Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. If you depend on the majority of people to give you self-worth, that's on you. Don't blame everyone else for that.

 

[Xpendable]

Fine. I think I didn't expressed my point as I wanted.

 

[LonelyInAtl]

But you can fight it. And on a personal level, for me, no - society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

I still don't understand how it can.

When someone tells you that you're too unattractive to date, or that they'd prefer a size 36 you. That has influence on self esteem.

 

[Nicolelt]

But you can fight it. And on a personal level, for me, no - society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

I still don't understand how it can.

When someone tells you that you're too unattractive to date, or that they'd prefer a size 36 you. That has influence on self esteem.

How though?

I've had my fair share of rejections, but it didn't really affect me negatively. I guess I don't understand. /:

 

[Batman55]

Credentials don't always enter into it. I've known guys who barely have ANY college education who have relationships; some of these *same* guys aren't socially fluent either, some tend to be passive, some aren't great looking, some work low-paying retail jobs.

It's really a complex interaction of factors. Looks do matter, but equally as important is how you carry yourself.. how comfortable you are in your own skin. If you have trouble with those things, then of course, it will be unusually hard for you to get the object of your desire.

 

[lonelyfairy]

Oh, one of these threads again... =.=

Edit: I think I'm late with the popcorn. .___.

 

[there is no hope]

There is no such thing as "self-esteem". The very definition of the word "esteem" is a judgement made by someone else. In effect, the word has the effect of splitting the personality of anyone who uses it, so that they internalize the value system around them - you know, doublethink.
I wish I wasn't such a ******* and made that connection earlier. The implications do a great deal to clarify much of the ******** in this world.

I don't think I can stand reading the linked posts in OP without wanting to throw a chair at something.
I'm more disgusted that some people are doing the predictable thing and starting a struggle session over this with a guy.

 

[VanillaCreme]

But you can fight it. And on a personal level, for me, no - society doesn't dictate how I view myself. Society has no influence over my self-esteem.

I still don't understand how it can.

When someone tells you that you're too unattractive to date, or that they'd prefer a size 36 you. That has influence on self esteem.

How though?

I've had my fair share of rejections, but it didn't really affect me negatively. I guess I don't understand. /:

I understand what they're saying; It just doesn't affect me. I've been told I was too fat, too big, too this... Don't care. Perhaps because I believe in finding and having someone who actually likes you just as you are more than trying to change yourself to suit someone's needs. If someone ever told me I had to change, physically or otherwise, I'd tell them to take a hike. Sorry I'm not what you wanted, so go find what you do want, because I'm obviously not it.

 

[Solivagant]

And people still say looks aren't important. ROFLMAO

However, it shows how much emphasis society places on looks and conforming to social norms.

In most cases, looks are required to even get someone to consider you as a romantic interest.

I'm sure all of us have good qualities inside. However, others must get past the outside to see them. That's the crux of the matter. I have qualities that I've been told would make women line up at my door, but it requires them to get past the pitted exterior.

However, these qualities never get a chance to show themselves because I'm prejudged by my lack of looks and automatically dismissed or friend-zoned.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you believe the links in your original post are even evidence of this. As I said in my last post, it seems that most of the nasty comments are coming from men (and not to mention on Reddit, which is rather notorious for its scumbag population). If it's women you want to be attractive to, then why do you even care what those guys have to say about the guy in the picture, especially when they're motivated by jealousy and bitterness? I'd think your focus would be more on the girlfriend's opinion, which she has made abundantly clear. If anything I see this "example" as being evidence of the very opposite of what you are trying to claim.

 

[Triple Bogey]

I'm sure you have good qualities within yourself, TB. We tend to overly critical of ourselves most of the time. Sometimes you just have to trust and believe that you've got some good qualities that women will see, and then they will see it.

I'm sure all of us have good qualities inside. However, others must get past the outside to see them. That's the crux of the matter. I have qualities that I've been told would make women line up at my door, but it requires them to get past the pitted exterior.

• PhD in Computer Science from a prestigious engineering university
• Do volunteer work with homeless women and animal rescues
• Homeowner since 24
• Likes kids
• Good sense of humor
• Loyal and loving
• Great career
• Private Pilot
• Loves the outdoors

However, these qualities never get a chance to show themselves because I'm prejudged by my lack of looks and automatically dismissed or friend-zoned.

Well said !

I am similar. And I should know because I have lived thru it. People on here are very nice and all but they haven't had my experiences.

 

[Xpendable]

Credentials don't always enter into it. I've known guys who barely have ANY college education who have relationships; some of these *same* guys aren't socially fluent either, some tend to be passive, some aren't great looking, some work low-paying retail jobs.

All of those (except great looking) sound like a bad way to carry yourself.

This remind me of a thought I had about loneliness and religion. Religious people tend to have better social lives than non-believers. They can always rely on their circle and their higher power. Couples with this affinity can translate their doctrine to what they value in one another.

 

[9006]

I've skipped a few posts arguments, but I believe this old advert explains exactly how I feel about the matter:

[video=youtube]watch?v=5XF66Ku4a9U[/video]