The Nice Guy syndrome. Are you suffering from it?

[SophiaGrace]

I think calling yourself a Nice Guy is a nice way of avoiding responsibility for your own flaws and issues.

 

[michael2]

Im not sure why 'being nice in the hope of getting something in return' is considered a 'nice guy' trait by so many.

Besides, the thought itself is contradictory.  If someone likes a girl,  and wants her attention/affection,  are they suppose to be indifferent,  or even rude to her,  instead of 'nice'?  If they are nice to her because they like her,  they are somehow evil?  Its completely idiotic.

I get the feeling that alot of the people who attack so called 'nice guys' are secretly jealous of them, and are doing their best to destroy them because they see nice guys as competition for women.  So,  they go around and slander nice guys, by spreading FUD like nice guys are only nice because they want to get you in bed, nice guys are underachievers, nice guys are addictive, secretive, controlling, manipulative,  full of rage, passive aggressive - OK stop right there,  are they talking about a nice guy or a complete psycho?!  And arent those traits more describing of a bad boy player then a nice guy?

Read the first post.  The author comes off as someone slamming nice guys, rather then someone who genuinely wants to help them.  Books like that,  along with other media spreading the same message are trying to condition women to stay away from and dislike the so called nice guy.  It also encourages the nice guy to be like the bad boy alpha male.  And the author knows most nice guys will fail at that,  reducing the competition for women.

I would compare it to a jock in high school,  who has 'everything', that gets incensed when he sees a nice looking girl talking with a nerdy 'nice guy'.  "How can she give such a worthless loser any of her time!!!  All the girls should be lined up for me!!"   So he goes and slanders nerds in front of the girl, a mixture of half truths and lies, making her feeling uncomfortable, ashamed, and even skeptical to even be seen around the nerd again.

"Nice guys are often anything but nice." is one of the biggest examples of FUD used in the excerpt from the first post.  I guarantee you almost all of the men out there making videos or writing books or articles trashing nice guys are insecure 'bad boys' who got mad when a girl they liked ended up with a nice guy or something similar.  Either that or they are egotistical PUAs who brag about not leaving a bar without a woman on their arm even though they fail to mention they were turned down by the first 20.

 

[bleed_the_freak]

As far as I can tell from what you've copy n pasted,  it's a bunch of regurgitated stereotypes and  cheap shots at passive socially awkward men.  Either you fit a masculine ideal as defined by the author, or you're a worthless passive aggressive piece of **** who deserves nothing out of life.  

The author's basically a hack peddling  PUA repackaged as general life  advice.

I agree with this. The author basically defined for us, the readers, which traits are "nice" and then said all men who might exhibit such traits/behaviors are always doing so for nefarious wicked motives.

 

[Drew]

Nice Guys seek the “right” way to do things. Nice Guys believe there is a key to having a happy, problem-free life. They are convinced that if they can only figure out the right way to do everything, nothing should ever go wrong. I believe there is a “right” way, but the “right” way does not mean “happiness”. In fact, I have found doing the “right” thing actually is the opposite of “happiness” as it often requires self-sacrifice.

Nice Guys repress their feelings. Nice Guys tend to analyze rather than feel. They may see feelings as a waste of time and energy. They frequently try to keep their feelings on an even keel. I would argue that acting on feelings leads to making stupid decisions

Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority. These men often feel that it is selfish to put their needs first. They believe it is a virtue to put others’ needs ahead of their own. Agree, but why is this wrong?

Nice Guys give to get. Though Nice Guys tend to be generous givers, their giving often has unconscious and unspoken strings attached. They want to be appreciated,( Who doesn’t want to appreciated?) they want some kind of reciprocation, they want someone to stop being angry at them, etc. Nice Guys often report feeling frustrated or resentful as a result of giving so much while seemingly getting so little in return. I fail to see what is wrong with this. You invest yourself into anything and you do expect a return on investment. I don’t believe in Karma, but as a general life rule, I feel it should work. You are nice, nice things should happen to you. You are a bad person, bad things should happen to you. Life doesn’t work that way though.

Nice Guys are full of rage. Though Nice Guys frequently deny ever getting angry, a lifetime of frustration and resentment creates a pressure cooker of repressed rage deep inside these men. This rage tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times. While I have “repressed” my emotions for my entire life I have never “exploded”. I controlled my emotions. They did not control me.

Nice Guys are frequently isolated. Though Nice Guys desire to be liked and loved, their behaviors actually make it difficult for people to get very close to them. I would wager your definition of “nice guys” is more like “introverts” who prefer time alone/away from others.

Nice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person’s problem. This does not make sense. How do you know what the problem is that needs to be fixed if you don’t listen? Why do you need to defend yourself if you are helping someone?
 
Because of their fear of conflict, they are frequently dishonest and are rarely available to work all the way through a problem. Fear of conflict = dishonesty? Why? If you are honest, you don’t have to remember what you said. Why would fear of conflict cause you to not see a problem all the way through?

Nice Guys have issues with sexuality. Though most Nice Guys deny having problems with ***, I have yet to meet one who isn’t either dissatisfied with his *** life, has a sexual dysfunction (can’t get or maintain an erection, climaxes too quickly), or has sexually acted out (through affairs, prostitution, ****ography, compulsive masturbation, etc.). My gosh, I would be willing to bet that 95% of the male population would fall under this criteria. Most men in marriages want *** more than their wives want to give. *** issues is one of the biggest issues in marriages! Then you throw in ****ography too. What percent of the male population looks at ****ography? I’ll bet it’s a REALLY big percent.

Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful. The majority of Nice Guys I’ve met have been talented, intelligent, and moderately successful. Almost without exception though, they fail to live up to their full potential. The majority of ALL GUYS are “relatively successful." What does "relatively successful" even mean? Assume a bell curve for success, the majority will fall in the middle regardless of how you define success. (68% of the population will fall within 2 standard deviations of the mean... my Stats prof would be proud.)

Without reading the book I cannot tell you my full opinion, but from the little you posted, I see so many flaws with his views and reasoning.

 

[TheRealCallie]

"Nice guys" that are referred to all the time....generally, they boil down to pushovers and doormats. You can be a nice guy without allowing everyone to walk all over you.

 

[michael2]

"Nice guys" that are referred to all the time....generally, they boil down to pushovers and doormats.  You can be a nice guy without allowing everyone to walk all over you.

But I feel the definition of this changes depending on the outlook of the person.

For example:  I had a sister call me and immediately start chewing me out, blaming me for something I didnt do.  I didnt raise my voice in return, instead, in an even voice I calmed her down and got her to realize that I wasnt at fault for what she was blaming me for.  I had diffused her, and the conversation ended.  I had another sister who had overheard the entire conversation, and she immediately said I was "too nice" because I did not respond to her initially hostile behavior with being hostile myself.

Its incidents like that were some people consider you a pushover or doormat because you wisely pick your battles - you dont go head to head with people over stupid stuff.  And when you do decide its time to make a stand over something more serious, people see this as you 'losing control' and 'blowing up' because its something you dont normally do.  You cant win. 

 Its like when I went out to eat with my aunt, mother and sister a couple weeks ago.  After being seated we waited nearly 30 mins for a waiter to see us.  I suggested we leave and then decided I was not going to order from the restaurant because of their poor service.  I made my feelings clearly known to everyone at the table. I hid nothing.  I was not passive aggressive.  I did not 'explode'.  I did not throw shade at the waiter, make a face, make a snippy remark or ask for the manager.  Yet despite all this,  my aunt accused me of 'losing control' and having a 'bad temper'. 

 You cant win once you get labeled as a 'nice guy'.

 

[TheRealCallie]

"Nice guys" that are referred to all the time....generally, they boil down to pushovers and doormats.  You can be a nice guy without allowing everyone to walk all over you.

But I feel the definition of this changes depending on the outlook of the person.

For example:  I had a sister call me and immediately start chewing me out, blaming me for something I didnt do.  I didnt raise my voice in return, instead, in an even voice I calmed her down and got her to realize that I wasnt at fault for what she was blaming me for.  I had diffused her, and the conversation ended.  I had another sister who had overheard the entire conversation, and she immediately said I was "too nice" because I did not respond to her initially hostile behavior with being hostile myself.

Its incidents like that were some people consider you a pushover or doormat because you wisely pick your battles - you dont go head to head with people over stupid stuff.  And when you do decide its time to make a stand over something more serious, people see this as you 'losing control' and 'blowing up' because its something you dont normally do.  You cant win. 

 Its like when I went out to eat with my aunt, mother and sister a couple weeks ago.  After being seated we waited nearly 30 mins for a waiter to see us.  I suggested we leave and then decided I was not going to order from the restaurant because of their poor service.  I made my feelings clearly known to everyone at the table. I hid nothing.  I was not passive aggressive.  I did not 'explode'.  I did not throw shade at the waiter, make a face, make a snippy remark or ask for the manager.  Yet despite all this,  my aunt accused me of 'losing control' and having a 'bad temper'. 

 You cant win once you get labeled as a 'nice guy'.

I wouldn't consider what you did with your sister as being too nice.  You diffused the situation without arguing and got what you wanted out of it.  I don't see the point in being hostile until it is the last resort.  It wasn't necessary, so you're good.  You weren't being a pushover or a doormat there because you made her see that SHE was in the wrong for yelling at you and accusing you. 

As for the restaurant...how exactly did you lose control?  It is kind of unacceptable to have to wait 30 minutes for someone to see you, it's their JOB to see you and take care of you.  I would have likely left.

 

[bleed_the_freak]

"Nice guys" that are referred to all the time....generally, they boil down to pushovers and doormats.  You can be a nice guy without allowing everyone to walk all over you.

But I feel the definition of this changes depending on the outlook of the person.

For example:  I had a sister call me and immediately start chewing me out, blaming me for something I didnt do.  I didnt raise my voice in return, instead, in an even voice I calmed her down and got her to realize that I wasnt at fault for what she was blaming me for.  I had diffused her, and the conversation ended.  I had another sister who had overheard the entire conversation, and she immediately said I was "too nice" because I did not respond to her initially hostile behavior with being hostile myself.

Its incidents like that were some people consider you a pushover or doormat because you wisely pick your battles - you dont go head to head with people over stupid stuff.  And when you do decide its time to make a stand over something more serious, people see this as you 'losing control' and 'blowing up' because its something you dont normally do.  You cant win. 

 Its like when I went out to eat with my aunt, mother and sister a couple weeks ago.  After being seated we waited nearly 30 mins for a waiter to see us.  I suggested we leave and then decided I was not going to order from the restaurant because of their poor service.  I made my feelings clearly known to everyone at the table. I hid nothing.  I was not passive aggressive.  I did not 'explode'.  I did not throw shade at the waiter, make a face, make a snippy remark or ask for the manager.  Yet despite all this,  my aunt accused me of 'losing control' and having a 'bad temper'. 

 You cant win once you get labeled as a 'nice guy'.

Your aunt sounds ridiculous for that response. Some people don't understand being in control of their emotions and making choices of conscience. I probably would have done what you did in that restaurant too.

 

[smarty24]

Hi guys. I am reading a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. In this book, you will learn if you are considered a "nice guy" and if yes, what you can do to improve. This book doesnt explain how to become an ******* but a man that is not afraid of his opinion and dont search female validation.

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Here is some extracts of the first pages of this book. Just tell me how many of those aspects you can refer.

Characteristics of Nice Guys

Every Nice Guy is unique, but all have a cluster of similar characteristics. These traits are the result of a script, often formed in childhood, that guides their lives. While other men may have one or two of these traits, Nice Guys seem to possess a significant number.

• Nice Guys are givers. Nice Guys frequently state that it makes them feel good to give to others. These men believe their generosity is a sign of how good they are and will make other people love and appreciate them.
• Nice Guys fix and caretake. If a person has a problem, has a need, is angry, depressed or sad, Nice Guys will frequently attempt to solve or fix the situation (usually without being asked).
• Nice Guys seek approval from others. A universal trait of the Nice Guy Syndrome is the seeking of validation from others. Everything a Nice Guy does or says is at some level calculated to gain someone’s approval or avoid disapproval. This is especially true in their relationships with women.
• Nice Guys avoid conflict. Nice Guys seek to keep their world smooth. To do this, they avoid doing things that might rock the boat or upset anyone.
• Nice Guys believe they must hide their perceived flaws and mistakes. These men are afraid that others will get mad at them, shame them, or leave them if some mistake or shortcoming is exposed.
• Nice Guys seek the “right” way to do things. Nice Guys believe there is a key to having a happy, problem-free life. They are convinced that if they can only figure out the right way to do everything, nothing should ever go wrong.
• Nice Guys repress their feelings. Nice Guys tend to analyze rather than feel. They may see feelings as a waste of time and energy. They frequently try to keep their feelings on an even keel.
• Nice Guys often try to be different from their fathers. Many Nice Guys report having unavailable, absent, passive, angry, philandering, or alcoholic fathers. It is not unusual for these men to make a decision at some point in their lives to try to be 180 degrees different from Dad.
• Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women[…] « traits they link to “other” men.
• Nice Guys have difficulty making their needs a priority. These men often feel that it is selfish to put their needs first. They believe it is a virtue to put others’ needs ahead of their own.
• Nice Guys often make their partner their emotional center. Many Nice Guys report that they are only happy if their partner is happy. Therefore they will often focus tremendous energy on their intimate relationships. »

And another one ...

What’s Wrong With Being A Nice Guy?

We might be tempted to minimize the problem of the Nice Guy Syndrome. After all, how can being nice be such a bad thing? We might even chuckle at the Marvin Milquetoast behaviors of these men as portrayed in comic strips and television sitcoms. Since men already represent an easy target in our culture, the caricature of a sensitive guy might be an object of amusement rather than concern.

Nice Guys themselves frequently have a difficult time grasping the depth and seriousness of their beliefs and behaviors. When I begin working with these passively pleasing men, almost without exception, they all ask, “What is wrong with being a Nice Guy?” Having picked up this book and puzzled over the title, you may be wondering the same thing. »

« By giving these men the label Nice Guy, I’m not so much referring to their actual behavior, but to their core belief system about themselves and the world around them. These men have been conditioned to believe that if they are “nice,” they will be loved, get their needs met, and have a smooth life.

The term Nice Guy is actually a misnomer because Nice Guys are often anything but nice. Here are some Not-So-Nice Traits of Nice Guys:

• Nice Guys are dishonest. These men hide their mistakes, avoid conflict, say what they think people want to hear, and repress their feelings. These traits make Nice Guys fundamentally dishonest.
• Nice Guys are secretive. Because they are so driven to seek approval, Nice Guys will hide anything that they believe might upset anyone. The Nice Guy motto is, “If at first you don’t succeed, hide the evidence.”
• Nice Guys are compartmentalized. Nice Guys are adept at harmonizing contradictory pieces of information about themselves by separating them into individual compartments in their minds. Therefore, a married man can create his own definition of fidelity which allows him to deny that he had an affair with his secretary « (or intern) because he never put his ***** in her ******.
• Nice Guys are manipulative. Nice Guys tend to have a hard time making their needs a priority and have difficulty asking for what they want in clear and direct ways. This creates a sense of powerlessness. Therefore, they frequently resort to manipulation when trying to get their needs met.
• Nice Guys are controlling. A major priority for Nice Guys is keeping their world smooth. This creates a constant need to try to control the people and things around them.
• Nice Guys give to get. Though Nice Guys tend to be generous givers, their giving often has unconscious and unspoken strings attached. They want to be appreciated, they want some kind of reciprocation, they want someone to stop being angry at them, etc. Nice Guys often report feeling frustrated or resentful as a result of giving so much while seemingly getting so little in return.
• Nice Guys are passive-aggressive. Nice Guys tend to express their frustration and resentment in indirect, roundabout, and not so nice ways. This includes being unavailable, forgetting, being late, not following through, not being able to get an erection, climaxing too quickly, and repeating the same annoying behaviors even when they have promised to never do them again.
• Nice Guys are full of rage. Though Nice Guys frequently deny ever getting angry, a lifetime of frustration and resentment creates a pressure cooker of repressed rage deep inside these men. This rage tends to erupt at some of the most unexpected and seemingly inappropriate times.
• Nice Guys are addictive. Addictive behavior serves the purpose of relieving stress, altering  « moods, or medicating pain. Since Nice Guys tend to keep so much bottled up inside, it has to come out somewhere. One of the most common addictive behaviors for Nice Guys is sexual compulsiveness.
• Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries. Many Nice Guys have a hard time saying “no,” “stop,” or “I’m going to.” They often feel like helpless victims and see the other person as the cause of the problems they are experiencing.
• Nice Guys are frequently isolated. Though Nice Guys desire to be liked and loved, their behaviors actually make it difficult for people to get very close to them.
• Nice Guys are often attracted to people and situations that need fixing. This behavior is often the result of the Nice Guy’s childhood conditioning, his need to look good, or his quest for approval. Unfortunately, this tendency pretty much guarantees that Nice Guys will spend most of their time putting out fires and managing crises.
• Nice Guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships. Though Nice Guys often put tremendous emphasis on this part of their lives, their intimate relationships are frequently a source of struggle and frustration. For example:

    • Nice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to   
    defend themselves or fix the other person’s problem.
    • Because of their fear of conflict, they are frequently dishonest and are rarely available to   
    work all the way through a problem.
    • It is not unusual for Nice Guys to form relationships with partners whom they believe to be  
    “projects” or “diamonds in the rough.” When these projects don’t polish up as expected,

• Nice Guys tend to blame their partner for standing in the way of their happiness.
• Nice Guys have issues with sexuality. Though most Nice Guys deny having problems with ***, I have yet to meet one who isn’t either dissatisfied with his *** life, has a sexual dysfunction (can’t get or maintain an erection, climaxes too quickly), or has sexually acted out (through affairs, prostitution, ****ography, compulsive masturbation, etc.).
• Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful. The majority of Nice Guys I’ve met have been talented, intelligent, and moderately successful. Almost without exception though, they fail to live up to their full potential. »

Well, everything is 101% true : ead also great free guide about "how to catch a woman", pretty similar, simply that is how stuffs works, that is how women brains functioning...

 

[Xpendable]

Read the misandry bubble. It's free, shorter and actually usefull.

 

[user 139760]

Hmpf. Nice guys and bad boys...
Ironically, I've been called both, at one time or another. That should give anyone an idea of how wildly all over the place people's perceptions are.
Books like that should be tossed. Better yet, kept to start fires, it's not as good as newspaper, but it'll do.
Just be true to yourself and don't compromise on it. No one, be it men or women, are totally one thing or another. I've met very few gorls who were ******* 99% of the time, very few men who were jerkoffs 99% of the time, though there are some. Everyone, depending on the situation, context and external factors, will act one way or another, according to their values. Some will interpret that as "nice". Others will see the EXACT same thing and think "jerk". It's not for anyone else but oneself to determine that and live with the consequences of their own actions, irregardless of what anyone else says about it.
Just be yourself. If others aren't happy, they aren't happy. That's their perogative and their problem.

 

[WillPower]

Those books are crap, IMO. When you resort to reading those book, I believe you fall into the "trying too hard" category. Seriously, why can't you just be yourself. If you want to read self help books, try the ones that focus on YOURSELF, like being more confident or having a better outlook in life or not caring what other people think of you.

As for who I would fresia.....I would choose the guy I want to be in a relationship with. Maybe I would want the genuinely nice guy biker over the thinks he's a nice average guy but is really a negative *******. Holy honeysuckle, again with the **** stereotypes. Stop worrying about what everyone else has and start worrying about yourself.

I've said this in another thread, but I think one of the worst pieces of advice women give when it comes to dating is to just be yourself. It just makes guys more frustrated. It's like, "I've been being myself for the last 30 something years, and it's never worked."

As far as reading this book means I'm trying to hard? So what should I be doing? Trying only a little? Some poster mentioned it in another thread, but people who have never had the problem of pretty much zero interest when it comes to dating will never understand the frustration that comes with that and the lengths people will go to overcome that.

As far as reading other self help books, let me just say that I'm in the personal development space, and I've read over hundreds of self help books, and this book is one of the most impactful ones to me. I even managed to get in touch with the author and had a one on one interview with him. So people can trash it all they want, but it's actually helped a lot of guys who suffer from this "nice guy syndrome."

 

[Unsigned]

I've said this in another thread, but I think one of the worst pieces of advice women give when it comes to dating is to just be yourself.

100% agree.

And furthermore, any advice most females (most - but not all) will give you will be useless. As I stated on another thread, most females always want to be perceived as "kind", so they will never tell you cold hard truths about yourself. The "Just be yourself" advice is their way of being kind (but only on the surface). Telling the guy that he is fine and he simply "hasn't met the right one" yet. What they really mean is that he hasn't met that 4/10 who they think he should pair off with yet.

If you really want to know what a female truly thinks about you, take note of who she tries to set you up with.
I have only ever been set up twice in my life.
Once was by my sister.
This was when I was 27 and she tried to set me up (in a very sneaky way) with her co-worker.
A divorced 34 year old woman with a 9 y/o daughter whose ex husband was a cop!!!
Meanwhile, she had a 21 y/o secretary in her office.
Now that is an honest opinion of what my sister thought of me.

 

[TheRealCallie]

100% agree.

And furthermore, any advice most females (most - but not all) will give you will be useless. As I stated on another thread, most females always want to be perceived as "kind", so they will never tell you cold hard truths about yourself. The "Just be yourself" advice is their way of being kind (but only on the surface). Telling the guy that he is fine and he simply "hasn't met the right one" yet. What they really mean is that he hasn't met that 4/10 who they think he should pair off with yet.

If you really want to know what a female truly thinks about you, take note of who she tries to set you up with.
I have only ever been set up twice in my life.
Once was by my sister.
This was when I was 27 and she tried to set me up (in a very sneaky way) with her co-worker.
A divorced 34 year old woman with a 9 y/o daughter whose ex husband was a cop!!!
Meanwhile, she had a 21 y/o secretary in her office.
Now that is an honest opinion of what my sister thought of me.

Or maybe it IS the truth. You can say it's just trying to not say something mean (and sometimes that's true), but I think we all know by now that I don't do that. lol I say what I think, regardless of whether or not you will like it.
The problem, a lot of the time, is that you ( generalized you, not you you) are likely so caught up in negativity or whatever that you can't be who you really are. Of course nothing is going to work out if all you think about is negative things. Self fulfilling prophecy anyone?
Another issue could be what you want. Now, I don't know about all of you, but Unsigned has stated that he wants something pretty darn specific. So specific that it's going to be harder for him to find what he is looking for. So yes, in that situation, you do need to be yourself, but you also need to understand that you are essentially looking for a needle in a haystack.
If you aren't yourself, how can anyone really get to know and care about you? They wouldn't be dating the REAL you, they are dating a fake version of someone you (or some hack/guru/whatever) think they are looking for. The facade will fail eventually and you will find yourself back in the same position.

I really don't understand why men want to take advice from guys instead of women, when it's women they want to date. Sure, try things out, consider your options, but don't sacrifice who you are.

 

[user 139760]

Or maybe it IS the truth. You can say it's just trying to not say something mean (and sometimes that's true), but I think we all know by now that I don't do that. lol I say what I think, regardless of whether or not you will like it.
The problem, a lot of the time, is that you ( generalized you, not you you) are likely so caught up in negativity or whatever that you can't be who you really are. Of course nothing is going to work out if all you think about is negative things. Self fulfilling prophecy anyone?
Another issue could be what you want. Now, I don't know about all of you, but Unsigned has stated that he wants something pretty darn specific. So specific that it's going to be harder for him to find what he is looking for. So yes, in that situation, you do need to be yourself, but you also need to understand that you are essentially looking for a needle in a haystack.
If you aren't yourself, how can anyone really get to know and care about you? They wouldn't be dating the REAL you, they are dating a fake version of someone you (or some hack/guru/whatever) think they are looking for. The facade will fail eventually and you will find yourself back in the same position.

I really don't understand why men want to take advice from guys instead of women, when it's women they want to date. Sure, try things out, consider your options, but don't sacrifice who you are.

The only thing I'd like to add to this that was already eloquently put is that when you're reading a self help book from someone, be it a male or female author, you're basically following advice from someone who:
A) is inherently very different from you, be it physically or psychologically
B) is quite possibly in an entirely different demographic from you, ex living in a diff country, ir a different province or state where the mentalities, habit, customs, life goals vary widely (a woman from asia will likely not have the same outlook or objectives as a woman from San Fran)
C) Following examples and advice from someone who's own experiences differ wildly from anything else you've ever experienced yourself, who may have more, or less, or different, charisma than you do.

You're basically trying to be similar and conform to what the author thinks you should do. Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but, conforming...that tickles me a bit. I AM going to be myself. It makes me get less girls and they don't want me? That's fine, I can very well live with that. Not everyone is for everyone. While you can take some small things from such books (advice is advice if you want to apply it to your life) it's still trying to condition yourself according to what other people think you should be. I don't think that's very healthy in the long run.

 

[Unsigned]

You can say it's just trying to not say something mean (and sometimes that's true), but I think we all know by now that I don't do that. lol I say what I think, regardless of whether or not you will like it.

Yes. And I did say "most", not all, for a reason...

Unsigned has stated that he wants something pretty darn specific

Very specific and self admittedly almost certainly unattainable.
I'm much better at venting than I am at changing.

 

[WillPower]

If you aren't yourself, how can anyone really get to know and care about you? They wouldn't be dating the REAL you, they are dating a fake version of someone you (or some hack/guru/whatever) think they are looking for. The facade will fail eventually and you will find yourself back in the same position.

I really don't understand why men want to take advice from guys instead of women, when it's women they want to date. Sure, try things out, consider your options, but don't sacrifice who you are.

Instead of saying be yourself, a better piece of advice would be the best version of yourself. I used to not care about my looks or fashion at all. I would just wake up in the morning, maybe splash some water on my face, throw on whatever clothes were lying around (even if they didn't match), and went off to school. I would have boogers in my nostrils that were clearly visible. I didn't think any of that mattered. But it did. Women were most likely repulsed by me. Now if I was just continued on being myself, how would that help? Being myself would mean not really caring about any of that. I used to think that it's just what's inside that counts right? Being worried about fashion and things like that are shallow. But no, it's not. Your outer representation of yourself is just as important.

I am a natural introvert. If it were up to me, I wouldn't socialize much and definitely wouldn't approach any women. Cause that's not who I am. If I were being myself, I would just sit in a corner somewhere. I'm sure many on this forum are introverts too. How does it help anyone by just telling them to be themselves. Telling people to just be themselves and never change is pretty much like just telling them to give up on life. If being myself for 30 something years hasn't worked, why would I keep doing that?

The only thing I'd like to add to this that was already eloquently put is that when you're reading a self help book from someone, be it a male or female author, you're basically following advice from someone who:
A) is inherently very different from you, be it physically or psychologically
B) is quite possibly in an entirely different demographic from you, ex living in a diff country, ir a different province or state where the mentalities, habit, customs, life goals vary widely (a woman from asia will likely not have the same outlook or objectives as a woman from San Fran)
C) Following examples and advice from someone who's own experiences differ wildly from anything else you've ever experienced yourself, who may have more, or less, or different, charisma than you do.

You're basically trying to be similar and conform to what the author thinks you should do. Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but, conforming...that tickles me a bit. I AM going to be myself. It makes me get less girls and they don't want me? That's fine, I can very well live with that. Not everyone is for everyone. While you can take some small things from such books (advice is advice if you want to apply it to your life) it's still trying to condition yourself according to what other people think you should be. I don't think that's very healthy in the long run.

I disagree. If you're going to only take advice from people who are like you or have similar backgrounds, you aren't really going to learn much. You need to absorb as much as possible from successful people no matter what their background. You can learn a lot from anyone. And I'm not just talking about dating. Like I said, I'm in the personal development space and I've read hundreds of self help and advice books. Warren Buffet for example couldn't be more different than me. He's an old, rich, white guy who has very little in common with me and my background and upbringing. But I would be foolish if I didn't read up on him and listen to his advice about finances and investing. And as far as dating, Tucker Max and I have very little in common either. But his book "Mate: Become the Man that Women Want" is an excellent resource and I would be dumb to ignore it just cause he is so different from me.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Yes. And I did say "most", not all, for a reason...

Yes, but how do you determine which are telling the truth and which are lying? It's easy with me, if you've read pretty much anything I've written on this forum, but dating is different because you don't get to see that history.

Instead of saying be yourself, a better piece of advice would be the best version of yourself. I used to not care about my looks or fashion at all. I would just wake up in the morning, maybe splash some water on my face, throw on whatever clothes were lying around (even if they didn't match), and went off to school. I would have boogers in my nostrils that were clearly visible. I didn't think any of that mattered. But it did. Women were most likely repulsed by me. Now if I was just continued on being myself, how would that help? Being myself would mean not really caring about any of that. I used to think that it's just what's inside that counts right? Being worried about fashion and things like that are shallow. But no, it's not. Your outer representation of yourself is just as important.

I am a natural introvert. If it were up to me, I wouldn't socialize much and definitely wouldn't approach any women. Cause that's not who I am. If I were being myself, I would just sit in a corner somewhere. I'm sure many on this forum are introverts too. How does it help anyone by just telling them to be themselves. Telling people to just be themselves and never change is pretty much like just telling them to give up on life. If being myself for 30 something years hasn't worked, why would I keep doing that?

Well, another I constantly say here is that if you don't like something about yourself you should work on changing it if you can. NOT for someone else, but for yourself. NEVER change yourself for someone else, do it for you.
Okay, sorry, but the booger thing is not who you ARE, it's just being lazy and unhygienic. And of course that stuff matters, how could it not. As for clothes, again, people don't always care what they wear, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't put a minimal amount of effort into it. Those things aren't usually who a person is, not at the core. THAT is what I mean by being who you are, not necessarily the outer stuff, but who you are at the core of yourself. Everyone should try to be better. If you don't, how do you expect to grow and learn and advance?

 

[Cherubino]

prostitution was made for the nice (beta-gamma) guys ... just mind that gap

 

[WillPower]

Well, another I constantly say here is that if you don't like something about yourself you should work on changing it if you can. NOT for someone else, but for yourself. NEVER change yourself for someone else, do it for you.
Okay, sorry, but the booger thing is not who you ARE, it's just being lazy and unhygienic. And of course that stuff matters, how could it not. As for clothes, again, people don't always care what they wear, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't put a minimal amount of effort into it. Those things aren't usually who a person is, not at the core. THAT is what I mean by being who you are, not necessarily the outer stuff, but who you are at the core of yourself.

Some people are naturally lazy and unhygienic. How was that not who I was? There are people who are on the opposite side of the spectrum and are neat freaks. There are people who are OCD who wash their hands every minute. This isn't healthy either, but that's who they are at their core. For the clothes thing, I knew a guy who had a girlfriend who was constantly trying to change what he was wearing cause she didn't like it. But he refused to because he said that's what he liked and it represented who he was. He was stubborn and wouldn't change. If it wasn't who he was, then why would it be such a big deal to change it? If a girl dressed like a tomboy cause that was what she was comfortable with and it made her feel like herself, would telling her to start wearing skirts to attract men not be changing her? Fashion can definitely represent who you are. Someone who isn't into fashion at all can definitely view that as changing who they are if you tell them they need to improve that to attract women.

Everyone should try to be better. If you don't, how do you expect to grow and learn and advance?

Well, that's my point. You shouldn't be afraid to change yourself. I have changed many things about myself including my fashion, speech, grooming, social skills, etc. Don't just be yourself. Be the best version of yourself.