The Nice Guy syndrome. Are you suffering from it?

[user 139760]

I disagree. If you're going to only take advice from people who are like you or have similar backgrounds, you aren't really going to learn much. You need to absorb as much as possible from successful people no matter what their background. You can learn a lot from anyone. And I'm not just talking about dating. Like I said, I'm in the personal development space and I've read hundreds of self help and advice books. Warren Buffet for example couldn't be more different than me. He's an old, rich, white guy who has very little in common with me and my background and upbringing. But I would be foolish if I didn't read up on him and listen to his advice about finances and investing. And as far as dating, Tucker Max and I have very little in common either. But his book "Mate: Become the Man that Women Want" is an excellent resource and I would be dumb to ignore it just cause he is so different from me.

I'm not saying it's not necessarily worth learning. I'm saying the application of said advice won't necessarily work the same with everyone. If said old rich guy says, I don't know, invest in gov bonds, they are a safe bet and you do, but lose a fortune in it, it's not that the advice wasn't good, it's that it didn't work in YOUR case, which is a different time, a different place, a different set of circumstances.
For example, you buy a new game on PC. The game is SUPPOSED to work on all systems, it was tested to. Doesn't work on yours. You shop around the web looking for a reason why. 90% of the time, even with people have the same setup as yours, all you get is variations of "well it worked for me". It takes you a month to end up figuring out that your graphic card drivers weren't updated, but by then you got tired of the game anyway and probably vented your frustrations on the developers being lazy on a half dozen support forums. It's not the game, it's you. Your system, or you, are just different. There's nothing surprising or inherently wrong with that, either.

A book is just a book but fundamentally, you're getting advice on being far different from who you are on how to become something else. Even if you were to pick, say Max Tucker you mentioned whoever that is, followed his advice to a T, do everything that he does to attract women and you don't, you only pretended to be someone you are not, someone who may be diametrically opposed to whom you are. Nit only coukd you possibly not have any luck, but maybe the women who WERE interested in you before but were too shy to say so, are suddenly taken aback and put off by whom you recently changed into.
I mean...I dunno man. Plus, it's a helluva lot of effort to put into, too lol. Hundreds of self help books? I think I read one once, long ago. Struck me as premade garbage generic advice, tossed it.
On the other hand, I never had much trouble attracting women. Like you, I sometimes can be something of an introvert, but I don't have any trouble stepping out of my comfort zone.

 

[Unsigned]

prostitution was made for the nice (beta-gamma) guys ... just mind that gap

Oh you'd be surprised.
The majority of the guys are married.
And many treat the girls terribly.
I've heard some real horror stories over the years.

Yes, but how do you determine which are telling the truth and which are lying?

The ones that refuse to criticize or even bring up unchangeable physical aspects, such as facial features or innate skeletal-muscular structure, I consider to be lying.

If a woman can't tell Frankenstein he has a flat head, she is probably lying about everything else as well.

 

[WillPower]

I'm not saying it's not necessarily worth learning. I'm saying the application of said advice won't necessarily work the same with everyone. If said old rich guy says, I don't know, invest in gov bonds, they are a safe bet and you do, but lose a fortune in it, it's not that the advice wasn't good, it's that it didn't work in YOUR case, which is a different time, a different place, a different set of circumstances.
For example, you buy a new game on PC. The game is SUPPOSED to work on all systems, it was tested to. Doesn't work on yours. You shop around the web looking for a reason why. 90% of the time, even with people have the same setup as yours, all you get is variations of "well it worked for me". It takes you a month to end up figuring out that your graphic card drivers weren't updated, but by then you got tired of the game anyway and probably vented your frustrations on the developers being lazy on a half dozen support forums. It's not the game, it's you. Your system, or you, are just different. There's nothing surprising or inherently wrong with that, either.

A book is just a book but fundamentally, you're getting advice on being far different from who you are on how to become something else. Even if you were to pick, say Max Tucker you mentioned whoever that is, followed his advice to a T, do everything that he does to attract women and you don't, you only pretended to be someone you are not, someone who may be diametrically opposed to whom you are. Nit only coukd you possibly not have any luck, but maybe the women who WERE interested in you before but were too shy to say so, are suddenly taken aback and put off by whom you recently changed into.
I mean...I dunno man. Plus, it's a helluva lot of effort to put into, too lol. Hundreds of self help books? I think I read one once, long ago. Struck me as premade garbage generic advice, tossed it.
On the other hand, I never had much trouble attracting women. Like you, I sometimes can be something of an introvert, but I don't have any trouble stepping out of my comfort zone.

Yes, and I agree. Advice is just advice. You aren't just going to automatically succeed just by following someone's advice. If that were the case, we would all be billionaires just by listening to Warren Buffet. Same with dating. I've made all these changes, but have seen little to no results yet. But this doesn't mean I'm going to stop and not keep improving and constantly working on myself. This doesn't mean I'm not going to continue to read up on things.

Like I said earlier, someone who hasn't had much trouble attracting women wouldn't understand. You're comfortable with where you're at, so you have no need to change or put a lot of effort into personal development. It may seem like a lot of work, but it's better than just sitting there and doing nothing. Even if I fail, I want to be able to say that I did all I could in order to put myself in the best position to succeed. I don't want to be one of those guys who just sits there and complains and is all woe is me and blames women when they haven't done a single thing to work on themselves.

 

[user 139760]

Yes, and I agree. Advice is just advice. You aren't just going to automatically succeed just by following someone's advice. If that were the case, we would all be billionaires just by listening to Warren Buffet. Same with dating. I've made all these changes, but have seen little to no results yet. But this doesn't mean I'm going to stop and not keep improving and constantly working on myself. This doesn't mean I'm not going to continue to read up on things.

Like I said earlier, someone who hasn't had much trouble attracting women wouldn't understand. You're comfortable with where you're at, so you have no need to change or put a lot of effort into personal development. It may seem like a lot of work, but it's better than just sitting there and doing nothing. Even if I fail, I want to be able to say that I did all I could in order to put myself in the best position to succeed. I don't want to be one of those guys who just sits there and complains and is all woe is me and blames women when they haven't done a single thing to work on themselves.

Oh no, I don't. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from perfect and not nearly as self-confident inside as I feel outside lol. I think everyone can benefit better from self-improvement. I just apply it for me, because it makes me happy and more comfortable with myself, not because of what others think or how they perceive me. Only people who's opinions I do care about are the ones I let close, which are few, because they are also the ones that have the potential to hurt more.
Well, I gotta appreciate your endgame, kid, even if I don't necessarily think the methods are that useful. It's good not to woe is me too much, even if we all pretty much end up doing a bit of it at times lol. I'm just going to wish you the best of luck.

 

[michael2]

I find it funny that there is no 'are you suffering from the bad guy syndrome' articles/books when everyone agrees those guys do not provide quality relationships.

Just shows how garbage our society truly is and how it's taboo to criticize women even constructively. Men are raked through the coals for liking the 'manic pixie dream girl' but women are praised for liking bad boys. It's a garbage double standard.

I've spent time around these 'bad boys' that some women love. Anyone stupid enough or with self esteem low enough to like them isn't worth my time to begin with.

I agree very much with Richard_39. It's not a good idea to change who you are to try and attract more people. It's the same reason why I would never would never accept even artifical AI that loved me simply because it was programmed to - I want someone to love me for WHO I AM. Not for an act or persona that I put on.

 

[TheSkaFish]

prostitution was made for the nice (beta-gamma) guys ... just mind that gap

Disagree. That is like saying crack cocaine and heroin was made for poor people, so they could "accept" a life of inferiority in status/material quality of life/probably genetics, limitation, frustration, insults, indignities, humiliation, powerlessness, despair, and misery.

Just as I will never accept that hard drugs are all I deserve, I will never accept that prostitutes are all I deserve.

I will never accept the insult, the humiliation of having to pay for what most men get for free just by existing, without putting so much an ounce of thought into any of this, and that I really am genetically limited/inferior/a loser, and that I need to "know my place" and resign myself to it.

I will never surrender my pride and dignity.

---

PS - I am not shouting at you, I am shouting at the concept.

 

[WillPower]

For those who are actually interested in the book and Dr. Glover's advice for guys who suffer from "nice guy syndrome," here is my interview with him:

 

[Cherubino]

Disagree. That is like saying crack cocaine and heroin was made for poor people, so they could "accept" a life of inferiority in status/material quality of life/probably genetics, limitation, frustration, insults, indignities, humiliation, powerlessness, despair, and misery.

Just as I will never accept that hard drugs are all I deserve, I will never accept that prostitutes are all I deserve.

I will never accept the insult, the humiliation of having to pay for what most men get for free just by existing, without putting so much an ounce of thought into any of this, and that I really am genetically limited/inferior/a loser, and that I need to "know my place" and resign myself to it.

I will never surrender my pride and dignity.

---

PS - I am not shouting at you, I am shouting at the concept.

it's not about dignity ... it's a trade like any other service ... I offer something what they need and in exchange they offer something that I need ... if rules needed in any transaction are not conformed (good manners, respect, dignity etc) they loose me as customer and also I get the service denied in the future
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sessions_(2012_film)

 

[user 139760]

it's not about dignity ... it's a trade like any other service ... I offer something what they need and in exchange they offer something that I need ... if rules needed in any transaction are not conformed (good manners, respect, dignity etc) they loose me as customer and also I get the service denied in the future
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sessions_(2012_film)

I sort of agree. Except that I think it should be legalized and regimented through gov standards, much like was done in the Netherlands. Because wether or not it is useful or not, ethical or not, okay or not, for Betas or Gammas or Alphas or Omegas or not, people are going to do it anyway. Male or female. It's the oldest proffession in the book. Might as well make sure the workers are cared for, safe from pimps, from abusive clients and drug free.

As for Michaels point...like I said, I've called both, a nice guy and a bad boy. I've been told I look like Nick Cage, or a young Mel Gibson, or a homeless guy, or a freak, or a dork, a nerd, a woman from behind, a psychopath, an insanely normal person and everything else in between, by numerous people, over the course of 30 years...We are so much more than what people think we are, the ones we try and care about. You can talk about being a nice guy or a bad boy or a nice guy all day, in the end...YOU ARE UNIQUE. There's is NEVER going to be anyone else ecactly like you in history.

That's what people should get to know. Not something a book tells you to do.

 

[Cherubino]

yes unfortunately high quality service is too expensive because of the lack of in depth regulation which comes from the public hypocrisy, cowardice and even cruelty ... I hear that the dress code police in radical Muslim countries is done with the help of women's cruelty against their fellow kitties

 

[Unsigned]

It's the same reason why I would never would never accept even artifical AI that loved me simply because it was programmed to

I recently had this discussion on another site.
If the AI bot was like a real female in every way - look, feel, could speak and hold at least a basic conversation, feminine "girly" personality, cooks and cleans for me, and looks like a blonde 5'1" 100 lbs college cheerleader...I'd take the bot....

 

[Unsigned]

I will never accept the insult, the humiliation of having to pay for what most men get for free just by existing, without putting so much an ounce of thought into any of this, and that I really am genetically limited/inferior/a loser, and that I need to "know my place" and resign myself to it.

I respectfully disagree.
And I know something of this subject.
To me, "knowing my place" would have been dating and wifing up a dumpy, overweight, plain jane 4/10.
THAT is the box the kids in grade & HS tried to put me in by tormenting me for 12 years of my life.
That I am not one of the beautiful people. And I should stay in my lane.
By seeing upscale escorts, I have been able to b@n9 girls most of the guys who dumped on me in HS could never even imagine getting for free. And most guys cannot pull the trigger on seeing escorts. Not sure why, but they can't. Guys who made fun of me for paying for sex when I was in my early 20s ended up marrying women who, quite frankly, are p1gs.

People have absolutely resented me for doing this. Yes, they know what I do. I'm pretty transparent in real life too.

EDIT:
Not saying guys should follow my route.
It is cold and lonely.
I do advise younger guys to work on themselves and try to be the kind of guy who hot girls want. Hotter ones, anyway.

 

[user 139760]

I respectfully disagree.
And I know something of this subject.
To me, "knowing my place" would have been dating and wifing up a dumpy, overweight, plain jane 4/10.
THAT is the box the kids in grade & HS tried to put me in by tormenting me for 12 years of my life.
That I am not one of the beautiful people. And I should stay in my lane.
By seeing upscale escorts, I have been able to b@n9 girls most of the guys who dumped on me in HS could never even imagine getting for free. And most guys cannot pull the trigger on seeing escorts. Not sure why, but they can't. Guys who made fun of me for paying for sex when I was in my early 20s ended up marrying women who, quite frankly, are p1gs.

People have absolutely resented me for doing this. Yes, they know what I do. I'm pretty transparent in real life too.

EDIT:
Not saying guys should follow my route.
It is cold and lonely.
I do advise younger guys to work on themselves and try to be the kind of guy who hot girls want. Hotter ones, anyway.

To which I have to object; why?
That 4/10 plain jane? She was the mother of my children. One of the most insulting tjings Inever heard coming from someone 's mouth was one of my previous girlfriends commenting on a picture of her I showed her where she said" you went out with THAT?!?".
That girl turned out to be far uglier than my ex, even though she was physically more "everything".
I don't resent you or judge you for anything you are, I respect your intelligence and choices, they are yours and yours alone to make; it's your outlook you should question, my friend.

 

[Unsigned]

it's your outlook you should question, my friend.

I have. Constantly. And for a very long time.
I know I'm messed up in the head.
And I am glad that you found someone to be happy with.

 

[user 139760]

I have. Constantly. And for a very long time.
I know I'm messed up in the head.
And I am glad that you found someone to be happy with.

Well not anymore lol.We had two kids, it lasted 3 years and was more great than not.
My point is, you keep throwing that back as an excuse; I'm messed up in my head. Why don't you try throwing yourself out of your comfort zone? You might be surprised by what you find.

 

[SquareBin]

My first GF always told me how much of a "soft boy" I was. Not feminine, but more as if I was stoned and chill all the time. I guess I lack guts to ask people out ? I'm always scared I might come off as too imposing if I tried anything.

Everyone at uni says I'm a very nice guy to be around, always helpful and everything... since I stopped going on toxic forums and all, I've stopped caring what "influencers" and "experts" said about nice-guy/bad-boy/alpha/beta whatever, and it's pretty refreshing ^^

However I do feel like I sometime lack taking the risk of going out of my "nice" ways to ask someone out (asking someone out is still "nice" but it feels insulting if I do it). I'm scared to lose friendship perhaps... ?

I don't know, honestly I don't expect sex or a GF just because I'm nice (not anymore, and I'm happy to say it ) but I did wish I had a way to make it happen somehow. I don't want to be alone right now, I feel ready for a long term relationship. Yeah.

(writing what you think and feel and understand is actually pretty hard on a forum :/ )

 

[user 139760]

My first GF always told me how much of a "soft boy" I was. Not feminine, but more as if I was stoned and chill all the time. I guess I lack guts to ask people out ? I'm always scared I might come off as too imposing if I tried anything.

Everyone at uni says I'm a very nice guy to be around, always helpful and everything... since I stopped going on toxic forums and all, I've stopped caring what "influencers" and "experts" said about nice-guy/bad-boy/alpha/beta whatever, and it's pretty refreshing ^^

However I do feel like I sometime lack taking the risk of going out of my "nice" ways to ask someone out (asking someone out is still "nice" but it feels insulting if I do it). I'm scared to lose friendship perhaps... ?

I don't know, honestly I don't expect sex or a GF just because I'm nice (not anymore, and I'm happy to say it ) but I did wish I had a way to make it happen somehow. I don't want to be alone right now, I feel ready for a long term relationship. Yeah.

(writing what you think and feel and understand is actually pretty hard on a forum :/ )

You don't think about it.
Ever jump in a pool? Same concept. Just hit the water running. Worst case scenario is you get told no.
It's really not much harder than that.

 

[Cherubino]

that is not the worst case scenario ... you can be exposed to big time, hard to stitch humiliation

 

[Unsigned]

Well not anymore lol.We had two kids, it lasted 3 years and was more great than not.
My point is, you keep throwing that back as an excuse; I'm messed up in my head. Why don't you try throwing yourself out of your comfort zone? You might be surprised by what you find.

It's a good point you make. I ca admit that.
But it's very difficult for an old dog to learn new tricks.
Yes, I know, that's just using my age as an excuse now
.
It's just real hard for me to change anything - like going from windows 7 to windows 11 - let alone habits that have developed over a lifetime.

 

[Unsigned]

that is not the worst case scenario ... you can be exposed to big time, hard to stitch humiliation

Yes, and when you've spent 12 years of your formative years being publicly humiliated in school on a daily basis, there just may be some aversion to it...