Are all killers guilty

[Peaches]

Probably this needs to go in the general chat section or something, but the issue is about relationships

I am quite upset about something someone I was chatting with said, they were nice chats, he seemed a nice person, and then it turns out that when he was very young he went to Iraq, and he was involved in quite a lot of bombings involving civilians.
The thing that freaked me out was that he didn't seem very touched by this, first he did say something like "I am not particularly proud of that part of my life" but then he also said that it was his job. His JOB, killing innocent people?
Children? Old people? Passers by? Families who died under the ruins of their own homes? This freaks me out completely. In a sense though, I don't want to be too quick to judge, and maybe there is some factor in this that I don't see, maybe he is in denial about what he did, but honestly I just feel I never want to hear from this person ever again. In the best scenario, he is really awfully ignorant ("Saddam bombed us, we bombed him" / except that you didn't bomb *him*, only dozens of thousands of innocent people)
Now this baby killer is sending me pictures of his cat, all sweet etc and I feel confused.
Do I exaggerate? Is he still a human being after all? (I know he is) so why do I feel so revolted?
Must say that I come from generations of anti-war people, my great-grandfather was in WWI and managed never to fire a bullet to a human being (he risked being executed if anyone of his superiors noticed that), my grandfather was almost put in a concentration camp for making fun of fascism (he saved himself jumping out of the van), and so on, my aunt was like the Joan Baez of her university in the 60ies, and so on.

I like men who feel at least a bit guilty when they have blood on their hands.

 

[LonelySutton]

Err send him my way.

I come from a long line of baby killers and currently I sometimes contemplate killing people on the subway... so for me... no biggie. (honestly only kind of kidding) But I can understand that you would feel much different and I would imagine you won't be able to get over it. I would say that all killers are not guilty. Everyone in the military has to do this... and even in every day life people have to "kill" people. I mean literally there was kind of a gun to his head in the military as he couldn't just say "no" or he would be prosecuted.

 

[SofiasMami]

Hi Peaches!
Am I correct in assuming this man was in the military when he was in Iraq? War is hell. Maybe he's tried to shut down thinking about that part of his military service. If he said he's not particularly proud of that part of his life, I would take that at face value. Maybe he's cried about it when no one is around. I've read "Night" by Elie Weisel and otherwise good people have had to do terrible things as a result of war and injustice.
A close family member of mine has been to Iraq & Afghanistan around 5 times total, maybe in Iraq at the same time as your acquaintance. (being vague here since this is a public forum on the world wide web and my family member is still active.) I've never asked my family member about what they've seen but I know it wasn't good. My family member is a very intelligent leader and I know they've thought about the human implications of war and they're bothered by what they've seen.

Maybe it would help to set aside chatting about a heavy topic like war for now until you can put that into the bigger framework of him as a person.

-Teresa

 

[Paraiyar]

I kind of agree with Teresa. He may be a lot more damaged than you realized and tries to block it out and it comes across as callous.

 

[Peaches]

Err send him my way.

I come from a long line of baby killers and currently I sometimes contemplate killing people on the subway... so for me... no biggie. (honestly only kind of kidding) But I can understand that you would feel much different and I would imagine you won't be able to get over it. I would say that all killers are not guilty. Everyone in the military has to do this... and even in every day life people have to "kill" people. I mean literally there was kind of a gun to his head in the military as he couldn't just say "no" or he would be prosecuted.

LOL lonelysutton

I do understand what you mean, and also Sofiasmami, but this guy didn't seem very concerned and apparently it was a career choice for him - maybe he was trying to look "macho" and avoided mentioning all the crying, but I don't know, had a bad vibe like he wasn't really feeling a lot about it.
I can imagine being forced to choose between killing innocents and being killed, and not everyone is a hero, or having to choose the lesser of two evils etc, but I just can't imagine feeling ok about it later. It is true that my experience with "war heroes" is quite low, I think I met only maybe two in my life, and they were both of the tormented kind, like the "I haven't really slept for the last five years because of what i've done" kind.

PS I know, "baby killer" is a funny term, it's from the 60ies, right? It just popped out on the post.
OK, what can I say, I m a bloody hippie, I guess this is a deal breaker - it was just some chat anyway

Lonelysutton, do you want his address? kind of cute too

---

I kind of agree with Teresa. He may be a lot more damaged than you realized and tries to block it out and it comes across as callous.

that's a possibility, it's not like I am good at understanding people

 

[SofiasMami]

Yes, I think hearing that "it was my job" would give me pause - I agree with Lonely Sutton though that there's no saying "no" to military orders. It's a very different culture than I see out here in the civilian world. In the US military, the higher-ups are not called supervisors or managers - they are instead called commanders. So your acquaintance was commanded to do his war duties.
Who knows, maybe he really doesn't care? It's been my experience though that guys aren't always open and up front about how they feel about their combat experiences.

-Teresa

 

[Peaches]

. Maybe he's cried about it when no one is around. I've read "Night" by Elie Weisel and otherwise good people have had to do terrible things as a result of war and injustice.

Exactly, I felt bad because felt this total lack of compassion rising, while maybe compassion is instead what is needed here
ok it's always better to feel compassion - so I didn't like my own reaction

 

[ardour]

You don't know the details of what went on. Even he may not have had much idea at the time who the targets were, or where they were in relation to civilians. After all insurgents/'terrrorists' were deliberately using civilians as shields in Iraq. .

 

[BadGuy]

Perhaps watch the movie American Sniper ?
It is based on real life events

I can only imagine being a little messed up in one way or another after seeing and doing some of the things that are done as an act of war

 

[Sci-Fi]

It's the military, that's a totally different thing. You have orders to follow and if you don't you can get in a lot of trouble. Sadly the truth is civilians always get caught in war, it's inevitable. Those who give the orders know this, when you get into the military you'd have to be fooling yourself to think otherwise too. You know that there will be innocents who get caught in the crossfire, there isn't much you can do about it. I wouldn't call them killers, their purpose usually isn't to kill innocent people. A killer would be someone who specifically targets innocent people. In the military your job is to eradicate the bad guys at all costs, you hope to minimize the collateral damage and loss of innocent lives but sometimes it just can't be avoided. You either do what you have to or let the bad guys go, then you put even more lives at risk. The bad guys are the killers, they are the guilty ones who take innocent lives without a second thought. The military is here to take those extra measures, to do the tough job to try and make the world safer.

 

[user 115627]

I wonder whether he signed up or got drafted. You didn't say where he's from, so I'm just considering the circumstances. Regardless, I'm gonna agree with the others and assume he's in denial or he just grew cold. War does that to you. He didn't talk about it with pride after all, just numbingly factual. When servicing you get used to following orders (also with premise of punishment in case you don't) and learning not to worry about the possible collateral damage since that's up to the the superiors. I wouldn't call him a killer, he's a drone at worst.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Don't make it out like he reveled in it. He most likely didn't like doing it. I know a few people who don't even want to talk about what they've done, but they did so because they were ordered to do it. And it's as simple as that.

 

[Peaches]

interesting point of view - I just truly have no sympathy for the military and people who follow orders in general if he had been drafted, it would have been an entirely different matter, but choosing a career as a drone, nope, not my kind of people, sorry if this offends anyone, that's how I see it

 

[kamya]

Not everyone has the same options. For many joining the military can be one of the only ways to improve their situation. I'm sure you benefit from the suffering of others in many ways as well. No one has clean hands in this world.

 

[VanillaCreme]

interesting point of view - I just truly have no sympathy for the military and people who follow orders in general if he had been drafted, it would have been an entirely different matter, but choosing a career as a drone, nope, not my kind of people, sorry if this offends anyone, that's how I see it

If you had been drafted, you'd have no choice but to live your life as a drone, as you put it. It's not as cut-paste-dry as you're putting it. They may have killed, but the reason behind it all is probably much different than any of us imagine. And until we're put in that situation, to kill or be killed, then we don't know how we'd react. I suppose you could just lay there and let someone who hates you just because you're serving in the military of a different country stab you to death or riddle your body with bullets.

But until I'm put in that situation, I know I won't judge. We all have our reasons for doing the things we do in life. Looking down on others won't change their history or their past.

 

[LonelySutton]

interesting point of view - I just truly have no sympathy for the military and people who follow orders in general if he had been drafted, it would have been an entirely different matter, but choosing a career as a drone, nope, not my kind of people, sorry if this offends anyone, that's how I see it

I think you are being harsh. My brother joined the military because he wanted to do good things. Also get a great "career" with benefits and perks. Of course he thought he might have to kill people but even with joining the infantry he didn't end up in any serious combat situations. First getting posted in Germany to do Data Entry and the he did go to Gitmo. And who knows what he did there. I still think that no matter what you have to give it to any person who joins the military because it says they are brave. They could die and they could die stupidly just following orders. But they do it anyway. To kill babies? Probably not.

I also think men in general are super mach-o about such things that can come off to women as not caring. It is just that you have to maintain a distance. I work with some hard things and when you do you have to push them down and sort of not think about it or you probably couldn't function. There probably are some real scum in the military but I don't think there is a lot of them.

I don't see how you can hate people who follow orders. I follow orders every day. My bosses and my employers. Got no choice. Do what they want or lose my job. Everyone "follows" orders to some extent and it can result in death. Judges can follow "the law" but not their heart and the person can be killed in jail. Doctors can follow "orders" not to run unnecessary tests and people can die.

That said, if you feels so strongly about it I would say let this guy go but there are so many former military people you are going to run into a lot of them.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I have a lot of friends and family in the military, it's definitely different. A lot of people are scarred for life because of what they've done while they were in service. To judge them because of that is wrong. To judge anyone is wrong, but to judge someone when you haven't been in their shoes is most definitely wrong, IMO.
You don't know what they've been through, what they've seen or how they feel because of it. Sometimes it comes down to kill or be killed, there is very rarely any mercy in war.

So would you judge someone and say these things if they killed a person that broke into their house and was going to hurt them?

 

[BeyondShy]

interesting point of view - I just truly have no sympathy for the military and people who follow orders in general if he had been drafted, it would have been an entirely different matter, but choosing a career as a drone, nope, not my kind of people, sorry if this offends anyone, that's how I see it

What?? I am ex-military and proud of it and I want you to know that nobody that was in the service with me wanted to run out and kill someone.

The last time the United States utilized the draft was back in 1973. I don't know how it is in your country but that is how it is here. People volunteer to serve this country and they do not join up for a license to kill.

If you are assigned to duty in a combat area there is a good chance you are going to have to fire a weapon. What the hell are you going to do if the other side starts shooting at you with everything they have, hide under a table and hope they miss? Sometimes you have to use your weapon under orders and for protection.

 

[Peaches]

I have a lot of friends and family in the military, it's definitely different. A lot of people are scarred for life because of what they've done while they were in service. To judge them because of that is wrong. To judge anyone is wrong, but to judge someone when you haven't been in their shoes is most definitely wrong, IMO.
You don't know what they've been through, what they've seen or how they feel because of it. Sometimes it comes down to kill or be killed, there is very rarely any mercy in war.

So would you judge someone and say these things if they killed a person that broke into their house and was going to hurt them?

Exactly, that was my issue and that's why I wrote it in the forum: I am having a really irrational rejection of this person, and usually this is not "me" if you see what I mean, so I was looking forward to hear your comments to expand my views and be able to explain to myself this reaction. The reaction is to the war context, as I write earlier self defence is absolutely not the same.
Also, there is war and war, there are wars to defend your country and your people and other wars, if you see what I mean, and you might go to war because you are forced to (drafted) but some people make a choice about that, and while I can understand some of this, with some other things I really don't agree.

I understand this is not everyone's opinion, fair enough. I respect other people's opinions, but you will understand if I don't want to have someone like that in my life on a regular basis, because it makes me too sad. And as I said, I can understand that people join the army for a variety of reasons, and that most of them come back with some major luggage, I was just put off by the attitude of this dude that I might define "cavalier" (hope it's the right term). Again, maybe it was just accidental.

Anyway, enjoying the debate here! Now they are going to move it to the section "Controversial issues". And I am truly interested in hearing opinions radically different from mine, otherwise what's the point?

Sorry BeyondShy, didn't mean to offend you, and if it wasn't quoted already I would cancel that unfortunate sentence, it's just something completely out of my experience and views so I don't know how to pick the right words.

 

[BeyondShy]

Ignore what I said, right? What the hell.