Bad Boy vs Nice Guy

[SofiasMami]

Frankly, a lot of "bad boys" who are able to get women are hypocrites. They get their bad boy reputations by shitting on all the males around them and then showing their softer side to women by rescuing kittens and helping the elderly when they think other males aren't looking.
Sure, there are some guys who take the pick up artist crap seriously and think it's cool to treat women poorly but they aren't long-term relationship material nor - if I were male - would I trust them for good relationship advice.

 

[EveWasFramed]

No sorry, I don't think YouTube is a place I should go to for forming personal opinions about people.
Watching some YouTube vids made you dislike the entire female population a little more? Wow.

I've been on this forum for a lot of years. I've heard this way of thinking over and over again.
I will ask the question again. What if you are all right? OK now what?? What will you do?

 

[michael2]

No sorry, I don't think YouTube is a place I should go to for forming personal opinions about people.
Watching some YouTube vids made you dislike the entire female population a little more? Wow.

I've been on this forum for a lot of years. I've heard this way of thinking over and over again.
I will ask the question again. What if you are all right?  OK now what?? What will you do?

Its mostly my fault - I had created a delusional fantasy in my head that all women magically were exceptionally caring and compassionate - and seeing that fantasy broken can be crushing.  I think I created this idea that all women were like that because thats who my mother was.  And women tend to like things like cute puppies and pink,  so they have to be automatically born more loving and caring then guys, right?  Wrong.   I did this despite the fact most of my sisters have always been cruel and hateful to me, one even broke my arm when I was younger.  

So what will I do now?  Move on, while remembering what I've learned.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Ska, do you think part of your problem could be that you aren't encountering people enough? I remember how isolating it could be when I was at home and unemployed.

I encounter people sometimes, though not being employed has made it harder to go out.  I see my friends sometimes but not as often as I used to.

I don't think that meeting more people would necessarily help though.  I think the girls I met could have been right for me, but I wasn't ready.  I was really blown away by them, but I wasn't on their level.  I didn't know how to make a good impression.

I think it was more like Ardour was saying before - it's my demeanor.  I've always come off as kind of a sourball, and a little bit "off".  It's a combination of things like low social skills/charisma, low confidence, unresolved personality flaws, and not having enough depth to my personality.  I also think I haven't done enough to come off as impressive.  I don't really know who I am yet, or what things I might like to do.

I think it's mostly my own flaws, but I do think bad boys have some role to play though, because they outdo me with their appearance, cocky confidence, and exploits.  I look like a weakling by comparison.  I need to add more punch to my personality somehow.

 

[Paraiyar]

TheSkaFish you sound alot like me.  Your upbringing, social experience, etc etc all very similar to what I have experienced which has led me to become the person I am today.

The problem is I feel men and women like us are rare, and thus its hard for us to find eachother.

It's just harder for us.  Women are attracted to masculinity, and bad boys have masculinity in abundance.  Their identity is all about projecting their masculinity all the time.  It's harder for guys who aren't as interested in that stuff.  I think it would be exhausting to be that way, because you'd always have to assert your dominance and defend your masculinity and "coolness".  You'd have to always be looking for trouble.  And I don't know what these guys do when they inevitably meet someone bigger, meaner, tougher, richer, etc. than them.  It seems like a never-ending game of one-upsmanship.      

It's also easier for them to find their way in the world.  For a job and hobbies, they just pick the macho ones, which are always socially acceptable - even doing illegal stuff is more acceptable and "manly" than being a "nerd".  They don't question themselves as much because they don't seem to want anything that complicated.  

I think guys like us have to be really careful about how we come across.  We have to remember that niceness isn't good enough, and to tone down the niceness, cuteness, and sweetness but at the same time without being a jerk because we're not good at that.  We have to remember to NOT be too agreeable or available to the women we like and NOT try to talk to them all the time, because we don't want to come off as a BFF, a pushover, or a doormat - BUT without being rude.  We have to make sure we are confident and assertive, even if we haven't had any success before so we don't know for sure what works.  We have to be interesting enough.  We have to act like we know what we're doing and where we're going.  We have to really make sure we have ourselves together (jobs, hobbies, etc.) and try not to reveal too many problems and insecurities to the girls we like.  We have to find a way to be ourselves, but without being Ned Flanders.  We can't come off as too prudish, and we have to show that we can deliver thrills.  It's a lot to keep straight.

Most importantly I would like to start off by saying yes, 'nice guys' do need to work on kissing too much butt etc etc.  But on the same token 'nice guys' need to understand they shouldnt try and swing the pendulum over to the opposite end of the spectrum and be the 'bad boy' and 'dont give a damn' or 'act aloof' etc etc.  It might be tempting to do this because many women find it attractive but its poison to a long term relationship.  Its all about balance and finding the middle ground where you become simply a respectable 'man'.

This is why the 'bad boy' stereotypes frustrates me - because it encourages countless 'nice guys' to change who they are for the worse instead of finding balance.  'Bad boys' are NEVER asked to alter their personality because it attracts women.  Being over masculine usually leads to being a jerk, but its socially acceptable because these guys are put on a pedestal in movies, TV, etc, or they use their abuse of masculinity (bullying) to climb the corporate or political ladder, fooling some women into thinking successful men have to act that way.

Now if a woman were to be overly feminine (too clingy, needy, etc) she is told to adjust her personality to be more balanced.  But again, the 'bad boy' is NEVER asked to alter his personality, and men are told to imitate him.  I've had acquaintances who were ' bad boys'.  They enforced their alpha male masculinity that women go crazy over by ALWAYS putting themselves first and belittling their own friends.  Sure not all 'bad boys' are like that.  But if you believe not all bad boys are like that, then you must believe not all 'nice guys' are spineless pushovers either.

I feel most 'nice guys' are talented, have an underappreciated degree of masculinity, as well as confident in their personal abilities,  though they may at times feel their abilities are nothing to be confident about because their talents are not socially acceptable/praised.  They simply dont have confidence in dealing with women because they lack experience with them.  They lack experience with women because they had trouble attracting them because they dont wear their masculinity on their sleeve, like the 'bad boys'.

I'm sure I'll probably get roasted for this, but some of the comments I'm reading give the impression that some people are damn near OBSESSED with this "bad guy" stereotype.
To fault someone simply because they are more masculine than you are?? There's NOTHING wrong with men who don't share your (anyone) characteristics. And to suggest that females like men who act badly??
They are in the minority in my opinion. Not many people, male or female, want to be with someone who breaks the law, etc.
Jesus Christ...maybe if people stopped focusing so much of their energy on who they AREN'T and stopped obsessing over these stereotypes, they'd have more time and energy to focus on THEMSELVES.
Yes, there are certainly men out there who fit that stereotype, but ****. Move the hell on.

The 'obsession' with the bad boy stereotype?  Look at youtube, theres dozens of women with videos telling men how to act like a 'bad boy' if they want to attract them.  Not only that, they love thrashing 'nice guys'.  Honestly, it made me not like women as much as I use to.  Because in these videos they come off as narcissistic, cold, selfish, and quite frankly heartless.

I have/had five sisters.  ALL of them are/were primarily attracted to 'bad boys'.  One of my sisters almost makes 6 figures and is a 9.  Yet she actually considered a 'bad boy' who just finished a 15 year jail sentence but only turned him down when she found out he was playing someone else at the same time.

If a 'bad boy' can be attractive to my sister,  why would I not be interested in this social dynamic?

Plenty of my friends who have girlfriends are decent guys. Just forget this whole stupid dichotomy and start doing more for yourself.

I feel its better to understand this then 'move on' rather then simply forgetting about it.  The world in general is very screwed up.  You can either turn a blind eye to all the garbage, or you can see the garbage, understand how if affects you and what you want from life, and then move on.

He isn't doing that though, he's just totally fixated on this, he's posted on it so much. I'm saying any of this to attack Ska, it's just what I've seen in all the time I've been on here.

 

[ardour]

I think it was more like Ardour was saying before - it's my demeanor.  I've always come off as kind of a sourball, and a little bit "off".  It's a combination of things like low social skills/charisma, low confidence, unresolved personality flaws, and not having enough depth to my personality.

Forget about the arseholes - it's this^ I'm the same: awkward, often frowning, poor social skills, battling with a bitter internal monologue.

Conversation skills have little to do with gender so work on them with men first, they'll cut you a lot more slack.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Ska, do you think part of your problem could be that you aren't encountering people enough? I remember how isolating it could be when I was at home and unemployed.

I encounter people sometimes, though not being employed has made it harder to go out.  I see my friends sometimes but not as often as I used to.

I don't think that meeting more people would necessarily help though.  I think the girls I met could have been right for me, but I wasn't ready.  I was really blown away by them, but I wasn't on their level.  I didn't know how to make a good impression.

I think it was more like Ardour was saying before - it's my demeanor.  I've always come off as kind of a sourball, and a little bit "off".  It's a combination of things like low social skills/charisma, low confidence, unresolved personality flaws, and not having enough depth to my personality.  I also think I haven't done enough to come off as impressive.  I don't really know who I am yet, or what things I might like to do.

I think it's mostly my own flaws, but I do think bad boys have some role to play though, because they outdo me with their appearance, cocky confidence, and exploits.  I look like a weakling by comparison.  I need to add more punch to my personality somehow.

And that's another major part of your problem....you refuse to get a job. 

The "bad boys" outdo you?  Might I remind you of a few things.  Bad boys mostly have jobs....and they don't outdo you, YOU let them outdo do.  You look like exactly what YOU project yourself as. 
Stop blaming others and take ******* responsibility for yourself and how your life turned out.  That's on you and no one else.  (This also applies to everyone, not just you)

Do you see the keywords up there?  YOU, not them....YOU.  You control your life, your life is what you make it.

---

Its mostly my fault - I had created a delusional fantasy in my head that all women magically were exceptionally caring and compassionate - and seeing that fantasy broken can be crushing.  I think I created this idea that all women were like that because thats who my mother was.  And women tend to like things like cute puppies and pink,  so they have to be automatically born more loving and caring then guys, right?  Wrong.   I did this despite the fact most of my sisters have always been cruel and hateful to me, one even broke my arm when I was younger.  

So what will I do now?  Move on, while remembering what I've learned.

All women are caring and compassionate (so are men).  To certain people.  Everyone has someone they love and care about.  And just because someone is a ***** to some people, doesn't mean she is a ***** to everyone.  Not everyone has to like every other person in the world.  Not everyone has to be nice and sweet to every other person in the world. 

Yes, someone might be an *** to you.  Yes, girls might reject you.  But it ONLY has to do with you and that specific person.  Not everyone else in the world.  Not the bad boys, not the friends, YOU and THAT PERSON.  High school is over, time to join the real world.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Frankly, a lot of "bad boys" who are able to get women are hypocrites. They get their bad boy reputations by shitting on all the males around them and then showing their softer side to women by rescuing kittens and helping the elderly when they think other males aren't looking.

Frankly, EVERYONE is a hypocrite....No, really, everyone is.  You are, I am, Eve is, Ska is....every single person in the world is a hypocrite about something.
But you know....most people actually do have a softer side and many people help the elderly and rescue kittens even when no other male is looking, even the oh so horrible bad boys.

 

[user 115627]

Frankly, a lot of "bad boys" who are able to get women are hypocrites. They get their bad boy reputations by shitting on all the males around them and then showing their softer side to women by rescuing kittens and helping the elderly when they think other males aren't looking.

Thanks for bringing it up again. Even though I wouldn't even call it hypocrisy because it would require these people to make claims about how they treat everyone equally and then contradict it with their behavior. Who knows if they would even claim such a thing, if questioned about it...

A lot of assertions have been made throughout the last five pages and I don't want to get into the whole "what constitutes a bad boy" debate again since I had the argument with Ska before. What I'd like to highlight is what Michael2 said:

Its mostly my fault - I had created a delusional fantasy in my head that all women magically were exceptionally caring and compassionate - and seeing that fantasy broken can be crushing.  I think I created this idea that all women were like that because thats who my mother was.  And women tend to like things like cute puppies and pink,  so they have to be automatically born more loving and caring then guys, right?  Wrong.   I did this despite the fact most of my sisters have always been cruel and hateful to me, one even broke my arm when I was younger.  

In my experience this is a common problem with men. Idealizing women based on how their mother treated them which translates into seeing all women as empathetic, graceful and kind. Sometimes they get an actual talk from their mother and/or their father on how they are supposed to treat girls/women differently because this gender apparently has certain properties like enhanced compassion or something. During puberty most guys are faced with a more realistic and human (instead of goddess-like) image of the other gender...well, or the taught contradiction hits them so hard that they actually start despising them. That's also a possibility.

One very interesting avenue these conversations open up is the question of what actually constitutes masculinity. From what I can tell, it often associated with aggression and while that might be true, it is always just one side of the coin, the bad one. Then you have femininity which is this wonderful, world-saving thing we're all supposed to worship while it's dark side is ignored all too often.

I have my own definition of masculinity and it does not require violence, but it includes things like controlled aggression which is necessary since you need to be able to assert yourself in conflict situations and that means making the first move instead of just reacting to what is thrown at you, preferably verbally. What's most crucial to me though, is not throwing another man under the bus to enhance my status under any circumstances. Certainly not to gain approval in the eye of a woman, let alone all women.

PS: Michael2 deleted that long post he made on page 2 and while I didn't intend to dissect it anyway, I have to quote one line that stuck with me just so I can disavow it entirely.

Women are only playing the game by the rules guys created.

If you know anything about biology and sexual dynamics, you will be left shaking your head.

 

[TheSkaFish]

And that's another major part of your problem....you refuse to get a job. 

The "bad boys" outdo you?  Might I remind you of a few things.  Bad boys mostly have jobs....and they don't outdo you, YOU let them outdo do.  You look like exactly what YOU project yourself as. 
Stop blaming others and take ******* responsibility for yourself and how your life turned out.  That's on you and no one else.  (This also applies to everyone, not just you)

Do you see the keywords up there?  YOU, not them....YOU.  You control your life, your life is what you make it.

It won't matter if it's the wrong job.  Not all jobs are attractive.  Low paying jobs aren't sexy, period.  With higher paying, more middle class jobs, I might not necessarily be seen as a loser, but I would still be seen as weak, effeminate, and boring, except for a few certain jobs, and even they aren't always seen as manly.

Bad boys do usually have jobs - blue-collar, industrial type jobs that don't care about appearance and don't require drug tests or criminal background checks, because employers know that this is the demographic that is interested in that kind of work, and if they were strict about that stuff, they would have a harder time filling the positions.  It's another reason bad boys aren't worried about jail, because the jobs they go for don't really care about it.  I'm sure it's not too much fun sitting in jail but it won't ruin their life, plus it will give them more street cred.  Guys in these jobs have an advantage with women because they are seen as raw, primitive, earthy, 100% pure beef REAL MEN. They might drink, drug, break the law and even work themselves into an early grave but it doesn't matter because women think it's hot.

When I said they outdo me it's partially because of the jobs they have but mostly the lifestyle.  They look flashier than I do, and come off as more confident than I am because they either think they can just fight their way out of anything or they just don't care what happens to them because they live by the code of "live fast, die young" which I always thought was stupid.  Because of that they take more risks and risk is considered sexy even if it's dumb.  They can entertain women with stories of theft, vandalism, fights, pulling guns on people, running from the police, drinking and doing all kinds of drugs, dealing drugs, gang life, etc.  All this stuff demonstrates aggression which is considered manly.  This is why I attack the tattoo thing so hard, because you can get a tattoo and smoke weed and look and talk gangster without being one, and you'll still be seen as sexier than a boring, stuffed-shirt accountant.  It's sad that this is what most people find thrilling but they do, and it's hard for a guy like me to compete with that.

 

[TheRealCallie]

ANY job is better than NO job. You need to learn that. Start living in reality.

My ******* ex makes 70k a year, at least, when he works all year. Does he like what he does? **** no, it's dangerous, his bosses are even bigger ********, but hey, people have bills to pay. Mommy and Daddy shouldn't have to support their child forever.

Oh and btw....those jobs DO require drug testing.

And I'm just going to ignore the rest of the ******** you spewed because well....it's ********.

 

[michael2]

---

Its mostly my fault - I had created a delusional fantasy in my head that all women magically were exceptionally caring and compassionate - and seeing that fantasy broken can be crushing.  I think I created this idea that all women were like that because thats who my mother was.  And women tend to like things like cute puppies and pink,  so they have to be automatically born more loving and caring then guys, right?  Wrong.   I did this despite the fact most of my sisters have always been cruel and hateful to me, one even broke my arm when I was younger.  

So what will I do now?  Move on, while remembering what I've learned.

All women are caring and compassionate (so are men).  To certain people.  Everyone has someone they love and care about.  And just because someone is a ***** to some people, doesn't mean she is a ***** to everyone.  Not everyone has to like every other person in the world.  Not everyone has to be nice and sweet to every other person in the world. 

Yes, someone might be an *** to you.  Yes, girls might reject you.  But it ONLY has to do with you and that specific person.  Not everyone else in the world.  Not the bad boys, not the friends, YOU and THAT PERSON.  High school is over, time to join the real world.

---

Yes, I was naive.  I'm often told I look for and assume the best of people too much.

Frankly, a lot of "bad boys" who are able to get women are hypocrites. They get their bad boy reputations by shitting on all the males around them and then showing their softer side to women by rescuing kittens and helping the elderly when they think other males aren't looking.

Thanks for bringing it up again. Even though I wouldn't even call it hypocrisy because it would require these people to make claims about how they treat everyone equally and then contradict it with their behavior. Who knows if they would even claim such a thing, if questioned about it...

A lot of assertions have been made throughout the last five pages and I don't want to get into the whole "what constitutes a bad boy" debate again since I had the argument with Ska before. What I'd like to highlight is what Michael2 said:

Its mostly my fault - I had created a delusional fantasy in my head that all women magically were exceptionally caring and compassionate - and seeing that fantasy broken can be crushing.  I think I created this idea that all women were like that because thats who my mother was.  And women tend to like things like cute puppies and pink,  so they have to be automatically born more loving and caring then guys, right?  Wrong.   I did this despite the fact most of my sisters have always been cruel and hateful to me, one even broke my arm when I was younger.  

In my experience this is a common problem with men. Idealizing women based on how their mother treated them which translates into seeing all women as empathetic, graceful and kind. Sometimes they get an actual talk from their mother and/or their father on how they are supposed to treat girls/women differently because this gender apparently has certain properties like enhanced compassion or something. During puberty most guys are faced with a more realistic and human (instead of goddess-like) image of the other gender...well, or the taught contradiction hits them so hard that they actually start despising them. That's also a possibility.

One very interesting avenue these conversations open up is the question of what actually constitutes masculinity. From what I can tell, it often associated with aggression and while that might be true, it is always just one side of the coin, the bad one. Then you have femininity which is this wonderful, world-saving thing we're all supposed to worship while it's dark side is ignored all too often.

I have my own definition of masculinity and it does not require violence, but it includes things like controlled aggression which is necessary since you need to be able to assert yourself in conflict situations and that means making the first move instead of just reacting to what is thrown at you, preferably verbally. What's most crucial to me though, is not throwing another man under the bus to enhance my status under any circumstances. Certainly not to gain approval in the eye of a woman, let alone all women.

PS: Michael2 deleted that long post he made on page 2 and while I didn't intend to dissect it anyway, I have to quote one line that stuck with me just so I can disavow it entirely.

Women are only playing the game by the rules guys created.

If you know anything about biology and sexual dynamics, you will be left shaking your head.

Lack of female friendship/interaction throughout my life is another big reason for my misconception of women.  In school I actually had a couple girls talk to me, but it was always 'romantic' interest, so they were extra sweet, kind etc etc around me.  So I was never able to interact with a female 'normally', as just friends.  Throughout school I was an outcast who spent most of my time alone, or maybe with 1 friend. So I continued to lack any real, meaningful association with females.  The jobs I worked at were either all guys or older (50+) women.  I did have one job were I worked closely together with a female who was my age but it was only for about a month.  I feel if I had more interactions like this I would have seen past the misconception I created much earlier. 

Also, I deleted that long post because I felt it had negative, hurtful stereotypes in it. What I said I feel is true about some women,  perhaps just a small percentage, but I cant blame women for thinking I feel that way about all of them.  So I deleted the post.  As for my quote about women playing by the rules guys created,  I'm referring to men in general putting a woman's looks and *** on a pedestal.  So women notice this as the 'rules' when they play the game of attraction.

 

[TheSkaFish]

ANY job is better than NO job.  You need to learn that.  Start living in reality.  

My ******* ex makes 70k a year, at least, when he works all year.  Does he like what he does?  **** no, it's dangerous, his bosses are even bigger ********, but hey, people have bills to pay.  Mommy and Daddy shouldn't have to support their child forever.

Oh and btw....those jobs DO require drug testing.

And I'm just going to ignore the rest of the ******** you spewed because well....it's ********.

lol whatever.  I knew I shouldn't have replied because it doesn't matter what I say and you're one of those people that has to get the last word in.  I feel like I'm living in medieval times when I argue with you about this.  Everything I do is wrong and insufficient, but every bad thing they do doesn't matter at all.  Might makes right, how dare I criticize the king.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Last I checked, YOU are the one giving them power by obsessing over them so damn much. For 3 years you've been here whining about how the bad boys are taking everything away from you, how they are oh so horrible. And never once have you had a convincing argument. Doesn't that tell you anything? Stop being so damn prejudice and entitled and start living in the real world.

As a woman, I tell you I would look at a guy who works at McDonald's long before I look at a guy who has barely had a job in his life and refuses to get one. I'm sure many women feel the same way. So what...you expect to get a girlfriend and have her pay your way instead of your parents? Are you kidding me?

And who told you that Industrial jobs don't require drug testing? Maybe you made that up to fit more readily into whatever fantasy you are living in. I can assure you they do. My ex has had to take quite a few random drug tests, as have my brothers and father and my friends. So I can tell you right now that you ARE wrong...about quite a bit.

 

[user 115627]

As for my quote about women playing by the rules guys created,  I'm referring to men in general putting a woman's looks and *** on a pedestal.  So women notice this as the 'rules' when they play the game of attraction.

What came first, the chicken or the egg...do men prioritize women's appearances which leads to women paying a lot of attention to their appearance or did women select strong and capable men with the capacity to provide for her and her offspring and who also pay attention to their appearance? Which includes features like clean skin, a certain hip-to-waist ratio and large breasts as signifiers of health and/or fertility? The choice is yours. Let me just add the little fun fact that we have twice as many female than male ancestors...what I'm saying is, that it's not a one-way street. What is attractive to either gender wasn't just pulled out of somebody's behind.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Last I checked, YOU are the one giving them power by obsessing over them so damn much.  For 3 years you've been here whining about how the bad boys are taking everything away from you, how they are oh so horrible.  And never once have you had a convincing argument.  Doesn't that tell you anything?  Stop being so damn prejudice and entitled and start living in the real world.

I don't understand why you follow me around every time I vent about this, as if you're going to browbeat me into changing my mind.  What even started this?  When I was talking to the OP about various nice guy behavior traps to avoid, from experience, trying to learn to increase our chances of women taking us seriously.  What is the problem with guys like me trying to stop being something that causes us to fail to get what we want in life?  

And it really pisses me off when you act like I just suck so much, I need to be more accepting and stop prejudicing, etc.  Because bad boys are so famous for not being racist, homophobic, misogynistic, totally accepting of anyone they perceive as lesser than them, and making intelligent, healthy life decisions.  

I don't like or respect these guys because of their decisions, personality, beliefs, and that's it.  Plus I think the whole "rebel-without-a-cause" act is ******* corny.  

As a woman, I tell you I would look at a guy who works at McDonald's long before I look at a guy who has barely had a job in his life and refuses to get one.  I'm sure many women feel the same way.  So what...you expect to get a girlfriend and have her pay your way instead of your parents?  Are you kidding me?

You can say you would in theory, but in practice, I really don't believe that.

And who told you that Industrial jobs don't require drug testing? Maybe you made that up to fit more readily into whatever fantasy you are living in.  I can assure you they do.  My ex has had to take quite a few random drug tests, as have my brothers and father and my friends.  So I can tell you right now that you ARE wrong...about quite a bit.

I'm sure some do, some don't.  And that still wouldn't count the alcoholics, and I'm sure there's lots of those.  Drinking is a huge part of that culture.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Most importantly I would like to start off by saying yes, 'nice guys' do need to work on kissing too much butt etc etc.  But on the same token 'nice guys' need to understand they shouldnt try and swing the pendulum over to the opposite end of the spectrum and be the 'bad boy' and 'dont give a damn' or 'act aloof' etc etc.  It might be tempting to do this because many women find it attractive but its poison to a long term relationship.  Its all about balance and finding the middle ground where you become simply a respectable 'man'.

Yeah I think that's the real trick.  Learning how to stop being so nice, because we've made it a habit.  What we see as normal, being nice, just who we are, others see as kissing butt.  But at the same time, we have to be careful to not actually become mean either because that's a social mistake too.

I think a big part is remembering that it's okay to disagree and not be too much of a "yes" man, to not be too available to talk to them, and to make sure we're not being too sweet when we talk to them.  Just a little compliments go a long way, we have to be careful not to overdo it.  We have to make it seem like we're trying to connect with our....substance, I guess you could say, rather than our niceness. 

This is why the 'bad boy' stereotypes frustrates me - because it encourages countless 'nice guys' to change who they are for the worse instead of finding balance.  'Bad boys' are NEVER asked to alter their personality because it attracts women.  Being over masculine usually leads to being a jerk, but its socially acceptable because these guys are put on a pedestal in movies, TV, etc, or they use their abuse of masculinity (bullying) to climb the corporate or political ladder, fooling some women into thinking successful men have to act that way.

Now if a woman were to be overly feminine (too clingy, needy, etc) she is told to adjust her personality to be more balanced.  But again, the 'bad boy' is NEVER asked to alter his personality, and men are told to imitate him.  I've had acquaintances who were ' bad boys'.  They enforced their alpha male masculinity that women go crazy over by ALWAYS putting themselves first and belittling their own friends.  Sure not all 'bad boys' are like that.  But if you believe not all bad boys are like that, then you must believe not all 'nice guys' are spineless pushovers either.

That's what makes me mad about it too.  No one ever tells the bad boys that their behavior is wrong or unacceptable or that they need to adjust.  It absolutely is fetishized in the media, and spills over into reality.  

And I've seen the situation like with your friends happen in real life too.  "Alpha males" belittling other men to appear stronger and higher up.  I never got into picking on people. It didn't appeal to me at all.

I feel most 'nice guys' are talented, have an underappreciated degree of masculinity, as well as confident in their personal abilities,  though they may at times feel their abilities are nothing to be confident about because their talents are not socially acceptable/praised.  They simply dont have confidence in dealing with women because they lack experience with them.  They lack experience with women because they had trouble attracting them because they dont wear their masculinity on their sleeve, like the 'bad boys'.

I'd agree with that.  It's hard to have confidence in something when you're not sure what you're doing or how it'll turn out.  You don't have any experience to fall back on.  We do have a bit of a tough time because we don't wear our masculinity on our sleeves either but I don't know what to do about it since I'm not interested in that stuff.

I feel its better to understand this then 'move on' rather then simply forgetting about it.  The world in general is very screwed up.  You can either turn a blind eye to all the garbage, or you can see the garbage, understand how if affects you and what you want from life, and then move on.

I just think sometimes, you have to just say that the garbage is real and that it sucks.  It might not change anything but I find that it helps to just vent.  It gives a little relief.  

Its mostly my fault - I had created a delusional fantasy in my head that all women magically were exceptionally caring and compassionate - and seeing that fantasy broken can be crushing.  I think I created this idea that all women were like that because thats who my mother was.  And women tend to like things like cute puppies and pink,  so they have to be automatically born more loving and caring then guys, right?  Wrong.   I did this despite the fact most of my sisters have always been cruel and hateful to me, one even broke my arm when I was younger.  

I did this too in a way, and I think this is another nice guy trap.  We think only men are mean and women are nice, like with the pink and the puppies and all that, and we act nice to show that we're different from the lewd and crude guys.  I don't think anyone really told me much about interacting with women differently, but I kind of came to that conclusion on my own that I wanted to be different from the jerks.  I didn't like their raunchiness either because I associated that with low-lifes, and I got it in my head that women thought talking to them about *** was rude, unless you were in a relationship with them.  I had, and still have very little idea how to communicate sexual interest in someone without being a sleaze, and I don't think I'd be good at that anyway.  I think a big part of my problem is that I never learned to be smooth.

 

[EveWasFramed]

Last I checked, YOU are the one giving them power by obsessing over them so damn much.  For 3 years you've been here whining about how the bad boys are taking everything away from you, how they are oh so horrible.  And never once have you had a convincing argument.  Doesn't that tell you anything?  Stop being so damn prejudice and entitled and start living in the real world.

I don't understand why you follow me around every time I vent about this, as if you're going to browbeat me into changing my mind.  What even started this?  When I was talking to the OP about various nice guy behavior traps to avoid, from experience, trying to learn to increase our chances of women taking us seriously.  What is the problem with guys like me trying to stop being something that causes us to fail to get what we want in life?  

And it really pisses me off when you act like I just suck so much, I need to be more accepting and stop prejudicing, etc.  Because bad boys are so famous for not being racist, homophobic, misogynistic, totally accepting of anyone they perceive as lesser than them, and making intelligent, healthy life decisions.  

I don't like or respect these guys because of their decisions, personality, beliefs, and that's it.  Plus I think the whole "rebel-without-a-cause" act is ******* corny.  

As a woman, I tell you I would look at a guy who works at McDonald's long before I look at a guy who has barely had a job in his life and refuses to get one.  I'm sure many women feel the same way.  So what...you expect to get a girlfriend and have her pay your way instead of your parents?  Are you kidding me?

You can say you would in theory, but in practice, I really don't believe that.

And who told you that Industrial jobs don't require drug testing? Maybe you made that up to fit more readily into whatever fantasy you are living in.  I can assure you they do.  My ex has had to take quite a few random drug tests, as have my brothers and father and my friends.  So I can tell you right now that you ARE wrong...about quite a bit.

I'm sure some do, some don't.  And that still wouldn't count the alcoholics, and I'm sure there's lots of those.  Drinking is a huge part of that culture.

You have ZERO life experiences to be stating things like this. ANY industrial or manufacturing here in the US require a pre-employment drug test and some even an alcohol test. Even the place I work requires a drug test and most of the guys who work there have been in prison at some point. Not ONE of them fits your description of a "bad guy." 
I'm wondering if you watch too much damn TV and get these distorted notions of what a bad guy is and what women do or don't find acceptable. Until you have PERSONALLY lived life (held some jobs, been in some relationships, etc) quite frankly, you're completely ignorant to then way the real world works and Joan people live their lives as functioning, responsible adults. You're living in some fantasy world where "bad guys" are your arch nemesis or something. 
As for Callie, you wonder why she's so vocal when it comes to your posts? She's right - you've been on here for ages renting about the same damn thing instead of doing something with yourself. People get annoyed seeing adult children whining about their ****** lives while living off of their parents.
Aren't you getting close to 30 years old?? From everything you've ever said here, you project your attitude as being too good to work a job that you think is beneath you. Callie own spot on - any job is better than NO job. Go get a job and stop blaming all your **** on others.
I know I was blunt, but damn. You have a twisted view of ****.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

 

[TheRealCallie]

"Alpha males" belittling other men to appear stronger and higher up.  I never got into picking on people.  It didn't appeal to me at all.

Isn't that EXACTLY what you're doing?