Bible

[LoneKiller]

In Daniel it said in 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If we are so smart, then why is everything going so wrong, and we use that knowledge to destroy ... Just like it said we would !!

There is a big big difference between knowledge and wisdom !!

Hi Alienated.
Even the smartest of people make dumb choices and do things in life that are dumb. None of us are perfect.

 

[Sigma]

This thread is a carbon copy of it's 50000 clones everywhere on the internet, it's not gonna lead to anything except people arguing.
I'd grab my popcorn but this whole cycle is starting to get tiresome and repetitive.

 

[Alienated]

In Daniel it said in 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If we are so smart, then why is everything going so wrong, and we use that knowledge to destroy ... Just like it said we would !!

There is a big big difference between knowledge and wisdom !!

Hi Alienated.
Even the smartest of people make dumb choices and do things in life that are dumb. None of us are perfect.

That is very true !! And watching it.... Brings wisdom to some.... And eminence entertainment to others !!

 

[LoneKiller]

This thread is a carbon copy of it's 50000 clones everywhere on the internet, it's not gonna lead to anything except people arguing.
I'd grab my popcorn but this whole cycle is starting to get tiresome and repetitive.

Well. That's very kind of you to say Sigma.
Your positive feedback and kind words are what makes this forum a truly wonderful and friendly place to be. In closing, I want to thank you for your support and enthusiasm with respect to this thread. Words can't express the tremendous amount of respect I have for your opinion. You're the best buddy!

 

[Lippy_Kid]

In Daniel it said in 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If we are so smart, then why is everything going so wrong, and we use that knowledge to destroy ... Just like it said we would !!

There is a big big difference between knowledge and wisdom !!

Hi Alienated.
Even the smartest of people make dumb choices and do things in life that are dumb. None of us are perfect.

That is very true !! And watching it.... Brings wisdom to some.... And eminence entertainment to others !!

With regards to our fate being ultimately known and set in stone then, as in the day of judgement, is it the Christian belief that God is all knowing and knows our fate, regardless of free will? I ask as I've always wondered why God was angry when he discovered that Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. At times the Bible describes god in very human terms; with surprise and a full set of human emotions.

That's not meant to question anyone's faith more to understand what a Christian sees as their place and purpose in the world. I've always seen it as marbles being roled down a hill into a pit of judgement, at the innevitability. If our fate is known we never had a chance, if we have free will then where did our choices come from? Were we born weak whereas others born strong or were our mistakes the product of the environment we were born into and we are a product of our experiences. Where are the right choices and free will supposed to come from and where is the evil or temptation supposed to come from. 'lest you be judged' but I never opted in for this scheme and you knew I was doomed to fail and I never did see a Miracle I only had science that pointed to your existence being unlikely. I am what I am and what you made me.

I suppose on a level where I was to accept the existence of God I find the whole idea of judgement as being somewhat unfair, I do not wish to be a higher beings play thing and I don't see fear of retribution as the reason to be humane, I'd rather be humane regardless.

Anyway like I say I'm interested to hear a Christian view on this as views vary dependent on who you ask, some do not belief in eternal damnation whereas others are more litteral and believe it will happen. Please no accusations of being disrespectful I'm really not trying to be, just discussing beliefs, it always tends to be an Atheist who is offended on behalf of Christians anyway, religious people generally tend to be a bit more tolerant and happy to discuss (as you might expect )

 

[Alienated]

In Daniel it said in 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If we are so smart, then why is everything going so wrong, and we use that knowledge to destroy ... Just like it said we would !!

There is a big big difference between knowledge and wisdom !!

Hi Alienated.
Even the smartest of people make dumb choices and do things in life that are dumb. None of us are perfect.

That is very true !! And watching it.... Brings wisdom to some.... And eminence entertainment to others !!

With regards to our fate being ultimately known and set in stone then, as in the day of judgement, is it the Christian belief that God is all knowing and knows our fate, regardless of free will? I ask as I've always wondered why God was angry when he discovered that Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge. At times the Bible describes god in very human terms; with surprise and a full set of human emotions.

That's not meant to question anyone's faith more to understand what a Christian sees as their place and purpose in the world. I've always seen it as marbles being roled down a hill into a pit of judgement, at the innevitability. If our fate is known we never had a chance, if we have free will then where did our choices come from? Were we born weak whereas others born strong or were our mistakes the product of the environment we were born into and we are a product of our experiences. Where are the right choices and free will supposed to come from and where is the evil or temptation supposed to come from. 'lest you be judged' but I never opted in for this scheme and you knew I was doomed to fail and I never did see a Miracle I only had science that pointed to your existence being unlikely. I am what I am and what you made me.

I suppose on a level where I was to accept the existence of God I find the whole idea of judgement as being somewhat unfair, I do not wish to be a higher beings play thing and I don't see fear of retribution as the reason to be humane, I'd rather be humane regardless.

Anyway like I say I'm interested to hear a Christian view on this as views vary dependent on who you ask, some do not belief in eternal damnation whereas others are more litteral and believe it will happen. Please no accusations of being disrespectful I'm really not trying to be, just discussing beliefs, it always tends to be an Atheist who is offended on behalf of Christians anyway, religious people generally tend to be a bit more tolerant and happy to discuss (as you might expect )

I would be glad to answer any questions you have, and thank you for being so respectful yourself.

God does have emotions just like us, but because He made us like Him. But it is our job to try and be more like Him and NOT make Him like us. We are imperfect and don't have His knowledge and wisdom. Just because we can't understand Him and His ways, does NOT make Him any less perfect. He did that so we would seek Him for that understanding. We aren't His play things.... He gave us free choice !

Let me put it this way... Would you rather force someone love you, or have them choose to love you ? He always loves us, but if we choose to reject Him after He gave us life ? Well that's pretty ungrateful then isn't it ? And it hurts Him, it actually grieves Him.

And yes He does know all things, and even the future.... I can't explain why He does what He does... His way's are above ours, His thoughts are not our thoughts ( THANK GOD), He knows how it all ends... And He even tells us how it ends... if you CHOOSE NOT to believe it... well....that's your choice ... isn't ??

As far as the Judging goes that's real simple.... He taught us right from wrong and gave us free choice. When you were a kid and deliberately disobeyed you parents, your got your butt paddled. Well as adults the punishment gets worse ! If you know what the punishment is and still choose to do it... well don't you deserve to be punished ?

Now Heaven and Hell is real simple too.... If you didn't want anything to do with God while you were alive, then wouldn't living in Heaven for ETERNITY with God... Be like Hell ? And it wouldn't be paradise in Heaven for the people that only want God, but are stuck with a bunch of hateful people that didn't want to be there ? So it's all up to each person where they want to end up, isn't it ? Free choice !!

What do you think the world would be like if there was NO law or punishment for criminal activities ? Hell on Earth ?? So isn't God showing His Mercy on us down here already ? He gave us laws to protect us from all the evil in the world. It's not perfect anymore because the first people blew it !! And there was only 1 law then, it WAS perfect till man rebelled and spoiled perfection, if they hadn't, it would still be !!

But still God loves us enough to give us a way out of being punished for all the evil we choose to do. And All it takes is accepting that He is GOD, obeying His laws, and accepting that He sent His own son down to pay the price for all our evil. But still look at what most of the world choses to do.... Rebel against Him, refuse to accept His love, refuse to obey His laws, and even flat out DENY that He even exists and curse Him for asking our obedience !!
Now how do you think most parents would react if their kids did that ?

But the kids that obey, and listen to Him, are grateful for their lives, respect Him for being GOD HIMSELF, and love Him back ? Well then don't you think they deserve to be kept separate from the people that hate everything about Him, and them ?

Judgment isn't unfair at all... If your family was killed, would you want the killer to go free with no punishment ? Or you worked your whole life to have a nice house, but somebody burned it down for kicks ? Or your own children attacked.. wouldn't you want vengeance ? Well it's real simple... God see's EVERTHING.... and Nobody get's away with anything. Everyone one will be judged FAIRLY for everything they have done, it's all been recorded in His books. Justice delayed is NOT justice denied.... we only have what 90 years down here, apposed to forever ???

But if you accept His son died for you and paid the price, you will be forgiven ? But if you refuse Him....? Well what do you think would happen if you went to court for breaking the law, and told the Judge to SCREW YOU ?? What do you think would happen to him ? If you were the judge.. what would you do ? Where do you think the expression lock him-up and throw away the key came from ?? US... we do the same thing here... So again Don't you think a all knowing, all powerful, eternal being that made us and the universe, has the RIGHT to judge ?? Don't we do that already ??

See you do know right from wrong, don't you ? Everybody does, He gave that gift to you.

Just because someone doesn't like it, doesn't make it any less true. If someone ignores the law and brakes it, they get punished... Just like we do down here.... So don't you think He has the right, since He gives you a free choice to decide ? We lock criminals up down here to protect the innocent.... We got that law from GOD !! Aren't you GRATEFUL now, we don't let them run loose ??

All He want's is you to be thankful, love Him back, and listen to Him when He tells us what is best for us. Is that too much to ask ?

Now as far as a Miracle ?? Well I got a question for you ? A miracle can't happen unless there is a need, right ? And that need has to be absolutely desperate with NO other way of it being taken care of... Right ?

I was 7 years old and electrocuted in 1971 and died ! I was hit with 25,000 volts after falling on a high power line, and the explosion burnt the tree I was climbing down, almost blew my leg off at the knee. My brain was totally fried, and my clothes were melted to my body. Even the doctor said to my parents when I woke up out of the coma... ""That I was one lucky little boy, because we did NOT bring him back.''

Now I don't even have a limp, and does what you just read seem like it was written by someone with brain damage ? And I still have the nasty scars to prove it !!

I would gladly die before I denied that God was real, and that He is all powerful, and showed me more love than I could ever know. How many people do you know that would die for something that wasn't real ? I don't have to understand it all, but just have faith that I am loved, and everything will be alright. And I have had a hard life, but I still have life... don't I ?

So... What are you willing to believe, and have faith in ? And how hard will you work to try and understand something so powerful ? Either a all powerful God, or just your own understanding and abilities, and just accept what your best attempts in life bring you ???

As for me and my house.... I love GOD, I believe every word of the Bible, and I am NOT ashamed !! Any more questions ?

 

[EveWasFramed]

This thread is a carbon copy of it's 50000 clones everywhere on the internet, it's not gonna lead to anything except people arguing.
I'd grab my popcorn but this whole cycle is starting to get tiresome and repetitive.

Well. That's very kind of you to say Sigma.
Your positive feedback and kind words are what makes this forum a truly wonderful and friendly place to be. In closing, I want to thank you for your support and enthusiasm with respect to this thread. Words can't express the tremendous amount of respect I have for your opinion. You're the best buddy!

I think we can live without the sarcasm.

 

[Lippy_Kid]

Hi Alienated

Thanks for taking the time to write your feelings in response, as I say I don't want to pick apart your response or your obvious faith, I was more just interested to see what your response would be.

You ask a few questions of my view however so in response I'll try to give you my view of the world. On the question of justice and the need for law and retribution, of course I see the need for them. My concern with Gods law has always been the notion that punishment is for eternity in the fires of hell. I do not believe in capital punishment for example so the idea that if you do not accept God's word you must suffer for eternity has strangely been counter productive in convincing me to accept it; I see that from my understanding of it as being somewhat brutal a punishment.

You may say I am only human and my reasoning flawed but my reasoning is all I have and I cannot equate God's eternal love and forgiveness in this life as having a cut off point at the day of judgment after which you are bound to suffer for ever more, not only forsaken and forgotten but also with no chance of ever having an ending to that suffering. I think if I was to enter heaven knowing that others suffered that fate, I could not rest easy; I have too much compassion, but more compassion than God? That sounds absurd a premise to begin to contemplate. I also feel some are born into religion and have a relationship with God handed to them. You may say yourself that you had that given to you with that incident as a child which opened your eyes as a Christian, but what of the millions who don't who are perhaps born into a country or family where Christianity is not preached and never will be, do all religions ultimately praise the same being perhaps? What of those who chose to live a humane selfless life but never feel god's presence, are they to be forsaken to hell also?

The promise of heaven-ever-after on the condition of accepting God or eternal damnation without chance of parole should you turn your back on him to me feels like coercion. A noble deed for the promise of a reward (heaven) does not seem so noble nor does it for fear of punishment (hell) but to do so because you believe it is right and from your own free will and without a relationship with a higher being, to chose to lead a peaceful, selfless life of helping others which brings nothing else but its own reward, that selfless act I do see as human and divine in its own right.

And I suppose that’s what I believe in to answer you; I have a concept of right and wrong and the divinity of mankind if you like. Our time on earth, born to die with no afterlife and the despair that we must carry around with ourselves in facing that reality, but choosing to love and respect and help others anyway. I see the pursuit of an understanding of both ourselves and the endless universe around us as the most noble pursuit mankind can follow. The majesty of the universe and the incredulity of our lonely existence within it as something that has inspired me as a child, it provided me with the canvass to consider bigger questions philosophically and scientifically and ultimately to reject the notion that it is due to a higher being. It is very true not all things can yet be explained by Science but that’s where my faith comes in, my faith in logic and reason.

My son often talks of a friend of his who is religious and how they annoy each other as they both grapple with such arguments with my son being staunchly (probably more than me!) Atheist. I tried to explain to him the idea of faith however and how his friend had no need to question his belief in God on any grounds as his faith by definition freed him from doing so, just as my son's faith in scientific reason allowed him the same liberty. I said he had to learn to accept that and see the opportunity to discuss such issues with his friend as a way of sharing viewpoints, find common ground and accept there is more than one way to view the world which is everyone's right to do so, well I hope that rubbed off on him!

So I suppose my faith in science revealing the answers also allows myself to reach the same conclusions, I do not know all the answers (such as why the big bang occurred), I just know that I have faith that Science will lead mankind to answers. The tragedy of course is that I will probably not be around to hear those answers where as a Christian at least has the comfort that their day will come. That is my choice and at least I'm part of that journey and that will have to be good enough for me.

So essentially we both have faith we've chosen to follow and in some ways I like the idea of science working to explain how God created the universe, wouldn't that keep everyone happy? ?

Anyway thanks for taking the time to respond!

 

[Scotsman]

Until I'm shown otherwise I'll continue to believe there is no 'God'. He's fictional, like Homer Simpson, Mr T and George Bush. However, embrace your faith if it works for you.

 

[ladyforsaken]

People will never agree. Why does it matter?

For every religious person trying to convince an atheist that God exists, an atheist is trying to convince a religious person that God doesn't exist.

Yeah, why can't we all just agree to disagree. This is another one of those...

another point is... a person is not necessarily an atheist or non-believer if they do not follow organized religion or the bible.

+1

This thread is a carbon copy of it's 50000 clones everywhere on the internet, it's not gonna lead to anything except people arguing.
I'd grab my popcorn but this whole cycle is starting to get tiresome and repetitive.

Well. That's very kind of you to say Sigma.
Your positive feedback and kind words are what makes this forum a truly wonderful and friendly place to be. In closing, I want to thank you for your support and enthusiasm with respect to this thread. Words can't express the tremendous amount of respect I have for your opinion. You're the best buddy!

I think we can live without the sarcasm.

Yeah.

 

[LoneKiller]

Until I'm shown otherwise I'll continue to believe there is no 'God'. He's fictional, like Homer Simpson, Mr T and George Bush. However, embrace your faith if it works for you.

Hi Scotsman.

I step outside, breath in the air, see birds fly overhead, see the trees blowing in the wind on a beautiful summer day, and hear a dog barking down the road and I am always amazed.

I've never met anyone who knows how to create these things. If someone approached me and asked me to explain to them how to create living creatures with emotions and all of the flora growing everywhere, I couldn't do it. It only makes sense to me that a supreme Creator has to be responsible for creating all of this.

There are just too many things in this world that humans are incapable of creating, understanding and explaining.

 

[Alienated]

Hi Alienated

Thanks for taking the time to write your feelings in response, as I say I don't want to pick apart your response or your obvious faith, I was more just interested to see what your response would be.

You ask a few questions of my view however so in response I'll try to give you my view of the world. On the question of justice and the need for law and retribution, of course I see the need for them. My concern with Gods law has always been the notion that punishment is for eternity in the fires of hell. I do not believe in capital punishment for example so the idea that if you do not accept God's word you must suffer for eternity has strangely been counter productive in convincing me to accept it; I see that from my understanding of it as being somewhat brutal a punishment.

You may say I am only human and my reasoning flawed but my reasoning is all I have and I cannot equate God's eternal love and forgiveness in this life as having a cut off point at the day of judgment after which you are bound to suffer for ever more, not only forsaken and forgotten but also with no chance of ever having an ending to that suffering. I think if I was to enter heaven knowing that others suffered that fate, I could not rest easy; I have too much compassion, but more compassion than God? That sounds absurd a premise to begin to contemplate. I also feel some are born into religion and have a relationship with God handed to them. You may say yourself that you had that given to you with that incident as a child which opened your eyes as a Christian, but what of the millions who don't who are perhaps born into a country or family where Christianity is not preached and never will be, do all religions ultimately praise the same being perhaps? What of those who chose to live a humane selfless life but never feel god's presence, are they to be forsaken to hell also?

The promise of heaven-ever-after on the condition of accepting God or eternal damnation without chance of parole should you turn your back on him to me feels like coercion. A noble deed for the promise of a reward (heaven) does not seem so noble nor does it for fear of punishment (hell) but to do so because you believe it is right and from your own free will and without a relationship with a higher being, to chose to lead a peaceful, selfless life of helping others which brings nothing else but its own reward, that selfless act I do see as human and divine in its own right.

And I suppose that’s what I believe in to answer you; I have a concept of right and wrong and the divinity of mankind if you like. Our time on earth, born to die with no afterlife and the despair that we must carry around with ourselves in facing that reality, but choosing to love and respect and help others anyway. I see the pursuit of an understanding of both ourselves and the endless universe around us as the most noble pursuit mankind can follow. The majesty of the universe and the incredulity of our lonely existence within it as something that has inspired me as a child, it provided me with the canvass to consider bigger questions philosophically and scientifically and ultimately to reject the notion that it is due to a higher being. It is very true not all things can yet be explained by Science but that’s where my faith comes in, my faith in logic and reason.

My son often talks of a friend of his who is religious and how they annoy each other as they both grapple with such arguments with my son being staunchly (probably more than me!) Atheist. I tried to explain to him the idea of faith however and how his friend had no need to question his belief in God on any grounds as his faith by definition freed him from doing so, just as my son's faith in scientific reason allowed him the same liberty. I said he had to learn to accept that and see the opportunity to discuss such issues with his friend as a way of sharing viewpoints, find common ground and accept there is more than one way to view the world which is everyone's right to do so, well I hope that rubbed off on him!

So I suppose my faith in science revealing the answers also allows myself to reach the same conclusions, I do not know all the answers (such as why the big bang occurred), I just know that I have faith that Science will lead mankind to answers. The tragedy of course is that I will probably not be around to hear those answers where as a Christian at least has the comfort that their day will come. That is my choice and at least I'm part of that journey and that will have to be good enough for me.

So essentially we both have faith we've chosen to follow and in some ways I like the idea of science working to explain how God created the universe, wouldn't that keep everyone happy? ?

Anyway thanks for taking the time to respond!

OH wonderful a science lover !! ME TOO !!

I am a firm believer in the Scientific Method as well, I love chemistry and all Earth sciences. Including Physics, mineralogy, crystallography, and metallurgy .... And of course their compounds

And I see some flaws in your reasoning, and I might even say you are taking quite a few leaps of faith in your understanding.

True science has to consider all evidence, and I find your information and understanding of Biblical facts quite haphazard... There seems to be some major contradictions in your statements that would have to be addressed.

If condemned souls are forgotten, then why would not be able to rest easy ? Might I suggest that these factors have biased your results.
I would love to discuss them with you, provided all civility on a professional scientific level was maintained.

 

[Scotsman]

Personally, I'm not for trying to convince anyone of anything. I have my own views on the existence of God -which I've expressed, and organised religion. It's not for me and its not without its faults and immorality but, if someone chooses to follow a religion then it's no skin off my nose. Knock yourself out.

 

[ladyforsaken]

Personally, I'm not for trying to convince anyone of anything. I have my own views on the existence of God -which I've expressed, and organised religion. It's not for me and its not without its faults and immorality but, if someone chooses to follow a religion then it's no skin off my nose. Knock yourself out.

I'm with you on this.

 

[Sigma]

This thread is a carbon copy of it's 50000 clones everywhere on the internet, it's not gonna lead to anything except people arguing.
I'd grab my popcorn but this whole cycle is starting to get tiresome and repetitive.

Well. That's very kind of you to say Sigma.
Your positive feedback and kind words are what makes this forum a truly wonderful and friendly place to be. In closing, I want to thank you for your support and enthusiasm with respect to this thread. Words can't express the tremendous amount of respect I have for your opinion. You're the best buddy!

Very well then here's my 2 cents.
Religion is a choice, and one that relies on blind faith. Reasoning and faith are conflicting when there's no solid evidence to back it up, therefor having discussions about it will never go anywhere.
That in itself isn't a problem, having a discussion doesn't hurt anyone, it's just that I've seen every single one of these "Religion yes/no?" threads spread across the internet derail into "I'm right, you're wrong", and considering how many threads have been locked for basically the same reason in this forum before I expect no different here.
I figured I'd summarize it in a sentence, but here's the full version for you.
If that's not what you meant and you want my personal opinion here it is: I don't care.
Maybe some grand, almighty entity created the world and everything in it, then so be it. I don't think such an entity would desire something like worship from an individual mortal, but if that's how people want to spend their lives again, so be it.
Maybe everything magically appeared after a big fancy explosion.
Either way, it resulted in the same thing. So again, why does it even matter.

 

[LoneKiller]

This thread is a carbon copy of it's 50000 clones everywhere on the internet, it's not gonna lead to anything except people arguing.
I'd grab my popcorn but this whole cycle is starting to get tiresome and repetitive.

Well. That's very kind of you to say Sigma.
Your positive feedback and kind words are what makes this forum a truly wonderful and friendly place to be. In closing, I want to thank you for your support and enthusiasm with respect to this thread. Words can't express the tremendous amount of respect I have for your opinion. You're the best buddy!

Very well then here's my 2 cents.
Religion is a choice, and one that relies on blind faith. Reasoning and faith are conflicting when there's no solid evidence to back it up, therefor having discussions about it will never go anywhere.
That in itself isn't a problem, having a discussion doesn't hurt anyone, it's just that I've seen every single one of these "Religion yes/no?" threads spread across the internet derail into "I'm right, you're wrong", and considering how many threads have been locked for basically the same reason in this forum before I expect no different here.
I figured I'd summarize it in a sentence, but here's the full version for you.
If that's not what you meant and you want my personal opinion here it is: I don't care.
Maybe some grand, almighty entity created the world and everything in it, then so be it. I don't think such an entity would desire something like worship from an individual mortal, but if that's how people want to spend their lives again, so be it.
Maybe everything magically appeared after a big fancy explosion.
Either way, it resulted in the same thing. So again, why does it even matter.

No need to explain man. I was out of line with that remark I made. I'm sorry. You are a member here like
me and are entitled to your opinion and you deserve the same respect that I would want when posting.

 

[Alienated]

Well you always have the choice to opt out, and not get into it.... But it's just to tempting isn't it ??

It does matter to us, if it doesn't to you ??? Then why ask why ? That's one that has no evidence, but yet here we are !!

 

[Scotsman]

Until I'm shown otherwise I'll continue to believe there is no 'God'. He's fictional, like Homer Simpson, Mr T and George Bush. However, embrace your faith if it works for you.

Hi Scotsman.

I step outside, breath in the air, see birds fly overhead, see the trees blowing in the wind on a beautiful summer day, and hear a dog barking down the road and I am always amazed.

I've never met anyone who knows how to create these things. If someone approached me and asked me to explain to them how to create living creatures with emotions and all of the flora growing everywhere, I couldn't do it. It only makes sense to me that a supreme Creator has to be responsible for creating all of this.

There are just too many things in this world that humans are incapable of creating, understanding and explaining.

That's perfectly ok my friend. I vehemently disagree but hey, so what.

 

[EveWasFramed]

OK....I think this has gone on long enough.