homosexuals and marriage

[heretostay]

Im not a particularly religious person but after prop 8 i started thinking about this topic more. the mormons, and a lot of religious people, are extremely opposed to the idea of homosexuals marrying because its a institution ordained by god. marriage, they say, is between a man and a women so they feel the need to pass a law that says so. but think about it, if they really believed god said marriage was between a man and a women is there anything that could change that? they think that man can change a few words on a legal document and all of a sudden its a marriage? i dont think religious people even understand what they believe.

here's what gets interesting to me. In the bible god states that marriage is when a man and a women become one flesh. I couldnt quite wrap my mind around what that meant. i know its interpreted as meaning sex, but that just didnt make sense to me. people are not one flesh during sex. they are just joined momentarily- but they are still two distinctly separate people. and then i realized that in biblical times sex was the time of making "one flesh" because there was no birth control. marriage happens, biblically speaking, not when a priest or anyone else says so, but when a couple has kids; when they literally, genetically, become one flesh.

So- from a biblical perspective homosexuals cannot marry. its impossible. god wasnt telling people so they can write it down and say "but god said so", he was telling people that marriage is between a man and a women because that is literally the only way two people can become one flesh. it has nothing to do with words, or statements. it has to do with the literal genetic makeup of our bodies.

so the whole prop 8 thing actually cracks me up. religious people are fighting to keep the words of marriage "between a man and a women" but they're actually mocking god in the process. what they dont get is that from their beliefs there's nothing that anyone can do to change what god states as marriage. im sure some time down the road homosexuals will get the legal right to "marry" and religious people will freak out. but that's so funny to me. they dont even understand their own beliefs.

 

[evanescencefan91]

wow heretostay that's a really good interpretation
i never would have thought of that,

but it makes sense that the one flesh could mean having a child

it's really important that people realize that we live in different times then when the bible was written and language changes over time

and need to contemplate what the bible means and not take it word for word

very good and interesting post

 

[Estreen]

I agree, I think that is an interesting and good interpretation of the phrase "one flesh". That's the first time I've really thought about it like that.

 

[Van Hooligan X]

ah! homosexuality topics ya just can't beat them at 4:30 AM!



honestly my opinion i think they should be able to marry, hell why not...there still people, hell...the couples will probably outlast men and women marriages (Espically in the vegas area lol)



the only thing i'd probably not support homosexuals in with rights is probably adoption.....and my only reason being i feel that the child would be heavily picked on for having 2 mums or 2 dads...and i think telling them that santa aint real is scarring enough with easy bullying topics. apart from this...go nuts!

 

[Jesse]

Yes, the institution of marriage today is actually different than the Bible teaches. You're right. Being married means you have a kid. (according to the bible)

 

[jales]

interesting; really good interpretation. i'm for gay marriage but you are right.

 

[Punisher]

I'm a Christian and i feel ashamed when i hear of these Christians apposing gay marriage, and judging others.

I like the Ghandi quote "I like your Christ, but I don't like your Christians". They are more interested in listening to the Old Testament than Jesus' teachings. Afterall, it's only what Jesus said that matters

And i'm pretty sure living together was considered marriage, not having a child. But please don't quote me on it

BTW excellent thread Heretostay

 

[Starman]

I've often wondered how homosexuality fits in with the evolutionary goal of survival of the species

doesn't make any sense

but then i've never been convinced about the possibility of a lump of seaweed turning into human beings anyway

 

[Nyktimos]

Im not a particularly religious person but after prop 8 i started thinking about this topic more. the mormons, and a lot of religious people, are extremely opposed to the idea of homosexuals marrying because its a institution ordained by god. marriage, they say, is between a man and a women so they feel the need to pass a law that says so. but think about it, if they really believed god said marriage was between a man and a women is there anything that could change that? they think that man can change a few words on a legal document and all of a sudden its a marriage? i dont think religious people even understand what they believe.

here's what gets interesting to me. In the bible god states that marriage is when a man and a women become one flesh. I couldnt quite wrap my mind around what that meant. i know its interpreted as meaning sex, but that just didnt make sense to me. people are not one flesh during sex. they are just joined momentarily- but they are still two distinctly separate people. and then i realized that in biblical times sex was the time of making "one flesh" because there was no birth control. marriage happens, biblically speaking, not when a priest or anyone else says so, but when a couple has kids; when they literally, genetically, become one flesh.

So- from a biblical perspective homosexuals cannot marry. its impossible. god wasnt telling people so they can write it down and say "but god said so", he was telling people that marriage is between a man and a women because that is literally the only way two people can become one flesh. it has nothing to do with words, or statements. it has to do with the literal genetic makeup of our bodies.

so the whole prop 8 thing actually cracks me up. religious people are fighting to keep the words of marriage "between a man and a women" but they're actually mocking god in the process. what they dont get is that from their beliefs there's nothing that anyone can do to change what god states as marriage. im sure some time down the road homosexuals will get the legal right to "marry" and religious people will freak out. but that's so funny to me. they dont even understand their own beliefs.

This is a good piece of analysis! Of course, today a person doesn't have to marry in the eyes of God, so for christian collectives to want to disallow a legal marriage between any two people is, to me, ridiculous. I feel sorry for homosexual christians (and there are probably more than we think) who want a christian marriage. But religions change more slowly than society as a whole. They are conservative by nature. I think things will change when churches realise they are alienating people. It usually takes that feeling of desperation when they see empty pews before they reevaluate there position on something. Whether society's acceptance comes in advance of the church's, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[heretostay]

honestly my opinion i think they should be able to marry, hell why not...there still people, hell...the couples will probably outlast men and women marriages (Espically in the vegas area lol)

ya im with you. i think homosexuals should be able to legally marry. but what i dont think they can do is ever marry under gods law because gods law, in my opinion, is when a couple becomes one flesh. so all the freaking out with prop 8 and the funding going into stopping homosexuals from getting married is funny to me. Its like religious people are saying, Sorry God we know you said it was between a man and a women but these homosexuals vetoed your law.

 

[heretostay]

so for christian collectives to want to disallow a legal marriage between any two people is, to me, ridiculous.

Yes i think all the disturbance to prohibit gay marriage based on upholding gods law is very funny. I think its funny because its ironic. Religious people say gays dont understand gods law and so they are sinners, but the ones fighting for prop 8 dont understand gods law either and they are mocking him. its a flip of the coin for which one is the greater sin in gods eyes.

 

[heretostay]

And i'm pretty sure living together was considered marriage, not having a child. But please don't quote me on it

Living together....well, that'd be hilarious if you think about it. There's a lot of roommates out there that'd be quite shocked of their status. and dont religious institutions inside on same sex dormitory's and roommates....i guess there's A LOT of homosexual marriages going on

I base all this off of Mark ch. 10: 6-9 in the King James Version of the bible. It says that god brings husband and wife together and so i take that to mean god joins them in marriage to become "one flesh". I dont know if living together was also a criteria. And im sure there are other interpretations of this passage. its just my opinion.

 

[Punisher]

And i'm pretty sure living together was considered marriage, not having a child. But please don't quote me on it

Living together....well, that'd be hilarious if you think about it. There's a lot of roommates out there that'd be quite shocked of their status. and dont religious institutions inside on same sex dormitory's and roommates....i guess there's A LOT of homosexual marriages going on

I base all this off of Mark ch. 10: 6-9 in the King James Version of the bible. It says that god brings husband and wife together and so i take that to mean god joins them in marriage to become "one flesh". I dont know if living together was also a criteria. And im sure there are other interpretations of this passage. its just my opinion.

Lol well, everything is different now, and i'm quite glad, other wise my brother would be my wife O_O. I think it was living together, but i'm not 100% sure.

I know it's only your opinion, but i quite like your interpretation of it. I'm not going to even try arguing with you, because i'm all for gay marriage

 

[Skorian]

Perhaps they should change a requirement of marriage for one of a union to be pregnant with the others offspring. Problem solved.

It has long been known that religions are anti gay. Marriage is a part of the religious institution. They don't have to change their opinions for anyone and people don't really have the right to try to force them too. It is their choice. Are there not other forms of unions already available? Things in life have consiquences and as such we can't all always, just cause, get what we want.

 

[Punisher]

If they read the words of Jesus and actually understood it, they would see how wrong they are. When did Jesus say "homosexuals are sinners"? He didn't, he didn't even mention homosexuallity.

This is something an Atheist friend of mine emailed me awhile back:

In Christianity, Jesus's coming (New Testament/Covenant) over-rides the Old Testament/Covenant which is why Christians do not have to follow many of the laws followed by Jews which are found in the Old Testament.

Anti-homosexual Christians base their current dislike of homosexuality on verses found in Corinthians and Romans. But the original Greek words translated as homosexual - "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" – do not literally mean homosexual

"Malakoi" means "soft" or "fine" and was mostly used in reference to clothing. Regarding people, it refers to those who live easy lives, enduring no hardship.

"Arsenokoitai" could possibly be interpreted as referring to homosexuals, as it literally means "man-beds". However, in other parts of the Bible (such as 1 Kings) the Greek translators of the Hebrew used it to refer specifically to people who use male temple prostitutes ("quadesh' in the old Hebrew) these prostitutes were very often male children. It was also occasionally used to refer to people who profit from prostitution, eg pimps.

The contemporary Greek for male-on-male sex was "paiderasste". That word is not used in the original Greek writings of the New Testament.

It seems clear upon returning to the original Greek that the New Testament had absolutely nothing to say about homosexuality - it railed against prostitution, pimping and living a life without labour.

There are 6 warnings or admonitions against gay activities but there are 166 warnings against frivolous heterosexual activities.

The famous quote in Leviticus merely warned Jews not to attend Pagan ceremonies where men sleep with men and women with women but it does not specifically warn against gay activities, merely Pagan Activities as far as Christians of today are concerned.

The Bible basically preaches love, so there won't be too much said against homosexual activity, other than at that particular time period there was a need to procreate to increase the population, unlike now, where we are needing to decrease the population and Nature is promoting homosexuality to achieve that.


Anyway, people should stop going on about the American Christians who protest, vote etc against homosexuals, and see what other people of other faiths actually do to them -physically- all around the world. In some countries (ruled by religion - non Christian) upto 25 years in prison, and in others the death sentence just for being a homosexual. Yet i have never seen a thread about religion and homosexuallity (even just homosexuallity) without Christianity being singled out as the main evil. I know what's happening in the US is wrong, but have a thought for the real victims of religious beliefs being put into practice.

P.S. Sorry, i'm not trying to cause any trouble, i was just having a little rant.

 

[Nyktimos]

That's really interesting. Each time something is translated, particularly from ancient languages, the translator puts their own spin on it.

unlike now, where we are needing to decrease the population and Nature is promoting homosexuality to achieve that.

I'd have to see more evidence of that before I accept it, though.

Anyway, people should stop going on about the American Christians who protest, vote etc against homosexuals, and see what other people of other faiths actually do to them -physically- all around the world. In some countries (ruled by religion - non Christian) upto 25 years in prison, and in others the death sentence just for being a homosexual. Yet i have never seen a thread about religion and homosexuallity (even just homosexuallity) without Christianity being singled out as the main evil. I know what's happening in the US is wrong, but have a thought for the real victims of religious beliefs being put into practice.

P.S. Sorry, i'm not trying to cause any trouble, i was just having a little rant.

Yeah, it's worth remembering that the west is pretty mild compared to some places. That's no reason not to be disgusted by discrimination. But we're not doing too badly with these issues. I expect we focus on Christianity because we view it (falsely) as a western religion for which we all feel we have some responsibility because it's such an intrinsic part of our culture. I think we feel it's our battleground.

 

[Jack Kerouac]

Marriage is a government institution, not a religious one, so whatever the magic book written (by an invisible being that we swear is out there but only communicates through human writings so you just have to believe!!!) of one particular religion says on the matter should be of no importance at all.

I've often wondered how homosexuality fits in with the evolutionary goal of survival of the species

doesn't make any sense

but then i've never been convinced about the possibility of a lump of seaweed turning into human beings anyway

Well this doesn't make sense to you because you are misunderstaning evolution. There is no evolutionary goal. There is no creator or intention behind the universe.

Things with characteristics that don't make them strong enough or fertile enough to survive don't typically survive long enough to pass on their genetic material- though sometimes they do out of luck. And not all genetic charactistics are fully present in offspring, as there are a whole host of recessive traits that can be passed on even if they are a hinderance in surival.

What really doesn't make sense is believing there is a god or gods or afterlives out there when there is no convincing proof of any of it. Just ancient books of mythology and people having emotional or coincidental experiences that convince them magic is involved.

 

[Jack Kerouac]

unlike now, where we are needing to decrease the population and Nature is promoting homosexuality to achieve that. [/color]

Nature does not work like that- it does not "promote" anything. That's just another religious-like mentality of anthropomorphizing the universe around us by acting as if this force has intent. Nature isn't conscious and doesn't have plans or desires.

It's wrong to give natural forces human characteristics. That's one of the major failures of all superstitious viewpoints of the world.

 

[Punisher]

unlike now, where we are needing to decrease the population and Nature is promoting homosexuality to achieve that. [/color]

Nature does not work like that- it does not "promote" anything. That's just another religious-like mentality of anthropomorphizing the universe around us by acting as if this force has intent. Nature isn't conscious and doesn't have plans or desires.

It's wrong to give natural forces human characteristics. That's one of the major failures of all superstitious viewpoints of the world.

umm if you say so that has nothing to do with the point i was trying to make. I couldn't care less about that part, it's just what was sent to me by a friend.

My point: Christianity is not anti-gay, just a few Christians happen to be.

 

[Van Hooligan X]

unlike now, where we are needing to decrease the population and Nature is promoting homosexuality to achieve that. [/color]

Nature does not work like that- it does not "promote" anything. That's just another religious-like mentality of anthropomorphizing the universe around us by acting as if this force has intent. Nature isn't conscious and doesn't have plans or desires.

It's wrong to give natural forces human characteristics. That's one of the major failures of all superstitious viewpoints of the world.

umm if you say so that has nothing to do with the point i was trying to make. I couldn't care less about that part, it's just what was sent to me by a friend.

My point: Christianity is not anti-gay, just a few Christians happen to be.

and those are the christians that we want to burn in hell...just for lulz


fredrick/punny-poo's right, its only a hand-full of idiots, not all christians are anti-gay, not all [inser any religion] are anti-[insert everything considered bad]