Naizo said:
Just because you don't fit into society's "perfect little system" you're gonna decide to hate people who have nothing to do with your problems? Yea, that's a bit childish.
Edited to be less abrasive, believe it or not.
Not sure if you're replying to me or Ardour.
"...you're gonna decide to hate people..." No. That's already not what I said.
I think it's possible to feel like the system is ******, and stop there - without actually hating anyone. That doesn't have to be part of it at all. The system isn't women, it's more like the way attraction works, evolutionary biology/psychology mixed with culture and dumb luck. I'm not recommending that Michael continue to hate a person or group, in fact, if you read what I said, I told him to forget all the stuff about women working or what they're saying or doing, and all that because I don't think it's relevant to his problem, which is that he's not doing enough - probably because nobody ever told him what "enough" is, or how to do it. And that the rules changed from our parents' day to now, it went from checkers to chess so their advice from the '70s and '80s, however well-meaning, is mostly out of date. If a guy got any advice from them at all.
It's easy to write off something as childish, especially when you're comfortable (not "you" you, just anyone - idk if you're comfortable or not). But to me, it's like how rich Victorians used to feel about the poor, or even how rich people view poor people today - that their condition was due to moral failings or moral weakness, so they deserved it. Just seems a little bit dismissive and heartless and that's what bothers me. Or like dismissing anyone who ever complained about their job as a lazy hippie communist who just wants free stuff and hates America and should move to China because "love it or leave it". I don't see what's so wrong with "stay and wish it was better, keep trying to figure it out but sometimes it's hard to keep pushing when it feels impossible."
Quietude said:
There certainly seems to be this notion among young men who identify with such groups that there has to be total equality between genders regarding attraction and choosing someone for *** or a relationship. There never has been total balance there and likely never will be. We are wired differently here and there and to moan at another gender because you think perceptions as a whole are not rational or balanced, is a pointless activity.
Who says they are moaning at another gender though, rather than just venting to no one in particular. Just getting it off their chest. Venting might not help solve a problem, but it helps ease your mind to blow off steam. To keep going with the job metaphor, complaining about your job doesn't necessarily mean you're complaining to your boss, let alone that you hate your boss. You might even like them, just not the job. It's very hard to be some kind of positive attitude engine all the time, especially when the only fuel you have available to you is blind faith. I say mindless optimism might be a little better, but much better than mindless pessimism.
I agree with the notion of attraction equality setting guys up for a fall though. I think we can blame the nice, well-meaning but outdated, G-rated, Disneyfied, rom-com views that we heard growing up, "be yourself", "just be nice, be good, follow the rules, don't talk dirty, don't fight or get in trouble", "the bad guy has muscles, money, and flash, but it will fade, and the good guy gets the girl if he just waits cause people will change after high school", "someday it'll just happen", making attraction out to be this nice, sweet, mushy thing when it's really a cold, hard, competitive marketplace, and the easy middle class suburban life in general for that, even though I also think it improved overall quality of life. That seems to be the first thing to unlearn.
Quietude said:
There are so many reasons that contribute to an imbalance... social, societal, cultural and social psychological among others. Change these things and then perhaps perceptions will change. There are also of course biological reasons, these can also have an effect on perception. I don't think that there will ever be true balance here. The gap may close in some cultures, but never true balance.
Well, it's definitely easier to change yourself than all those forces. But it's still hard when the only thing you know is that you need to change from who you are, to some vague idea of "someone else". Be someone you're not, don't know how to be, and probably no one around you does either. Take up interests you don't have. Do things you don't do. Learn to talk and think in ways that you don't talk and think. Where do you even start? Which of these things is actually worth doing cause it's going to help you be good enough, and what is just going to be another dead end? It's confusing, but you have to, cause the way you are is not enough.
Quietude said:
Men who identify with these groups are just yet to grow up and be part of the game of life and to realize that not everything is balanced or fair. Sometimes you have to actually work to overcome this imbalance as an individual. Creating discourse over it because you are unhappy with it is not always the answer. Some things won't be changed by moaning or claiming victim. You can't moan at an entire gender to change individual perception. You have to get to the root of the problem such as actually changing how society works if you want to alter perception on a macro scale.
It's like loving basketball, when you are really short. You want more than anything to be a good player, and while it's technically possible, it's not lying or being negative to say the deck is heavily stacked against you. You'll be picked last if you get picked at all in casual games, you'll fail to make the cut for lot of teams, you'll have people telling you to quit, this game isn't for you, do something else, just learn to be content watching. You'll wonder what you're even doing there. It can wear a person down. But even a short guy that loves basketball is in a better position, because the rules are out in the open. He can study the game and find a strategy that works for him. All a romantically struggling man is likely to get, other than straight-up mockery and shaming tactics, is someone telling him to "self-improve" and patting themselves on the back for doing their good deed for the day, without even telling him what that even means. Improve how, by doing what? How much? That's why I think a lot of guys wind up in this situation, cause that first part of knowing the rules of the game depends on either instinct or word of mouth from somebody who knows what to do, and if you don't have either of those, it's hard to even know what's going on, what you should do, where to start. And you have to filter out all the "be yourself", "just keep doing whatever", "hope wish and pray" noise from society, or people who just got lucky and never really had to think about it. I feel that if a person is one of the lucky ones who doesn't get it because they've never had to, there's no need to **** on people struggling. They should just thank their lucky stars, and enjoy.
I'm starting to feel like discourse isn't the answer either, because all it seems to do is create friction between people that get it and people that don't. And because it's a *** topic, it just seems to give it an extra spiteful charge. Even junior high kids use "virgin" as an insult without even knowing why. Any topic that implies that some people are just better than others and the ones who aren't better just need to resign themselves to accepting a "life of quiet desperation", is bound to be sensitive. Maybe venting is better for the diary section.
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