Is Therapy Worth It For Being Ugly?

[Unsigned]

I don't recall if this was ever suggested (pretty sure it has been) but what about being a sugar daddy? That would get you the girls you want and there are sites for that.

Yes you and I commented about that once. I have an account on "Seeking".

It's a lot of work, and the girls are rather picky, which is 100% their right.
The ones I have contacted didn't find me to be their type, age wise, looks wise, and quite frankly what I was willing to spend on them was no to their liking. The really hot ones want monthly allowances that quite frankly, only a 1%er can afford.
And the ones who contact me are not my type.

I have had sugar babies, but they were escorts who left the business to be with me. In fact, after the last one left, I found my way to this site, rather depressed about it. I wrote about it in one of my first posts here.

 

[Unsigned]

This is like the biggest mistery in the universe to me, but I've never actually said it. Dude's rich yet he can't find a girlfriend.

Also as I have stated before, I am well off/upper middle class, not "rich" (at least for a NY metro area guy).
And other than spending on girls and occasional restaurants, I live below my means.
I wear plain clothes, drive an old Camry (albeit with low mileage and in excellent condition), live in a small apartment in a middle class neighborhood. In other words, and I not am flashy at all, and I don't think I could ever be. It's just not me.

 

[user 191138]

So are you prepared to play the feminine role - submissive, prepared to be a stay at home mother if that's what he wants - or does the defined gender only apply to men?

To be honest you don't sound particularly feminine.

What doesn’t sound feminine? That I’m fighting for it?

 

[user 191138]

All three of those things can be accomplished without adhering to strict gender roles.



I missed this. Do you think I'm Callie posting under another name? If so...
1.) I can assure you that's not the case, and that the two of us have had quite a few disagreements in this forum.
2.) It's odd that you can't accept two people have challenged what you said.

Your cadences are similar but seeing this last comment I can tell you have more substance than she does. She just seems like the type to try to further an argument by pretending to be someone else since she can’t form any real ones

 

[TheRealCallie]

type to try to further an argument

Yet here you are attacking me yet again.....

 

[user 191138]

Yet here you are attacking me yet again.....

Bye Callie.

 

[ringwood]

Bye Callie.

WTF is with this person? So hostile. . .

 

[user 191138]

WTF is with this person? So hostile. . .

Why are you in someone else’s issue

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Why are you in someone else’s issue

Why the hell is any of this in mine?

 

[Frank Peterson]

I'm late to this thread and it seems to have derailed but I thought I would comment on your original post for what it's worth.

In my younger years I would have understood your situation completely, but getting older my view is changing a lot.

At one point being with someone in a romantic intimate relationship was a big priority, a hot burning flame. Then I got older and that flame started to diminish. Sooner or later one starts to grapple with existential questions and questions of meaning. Questions about personal growth and self worth. Sometimes those relationships and their aftermath forces you to find a way to be happy without them, because the ignorant bliss of youth gets replace with the knowledge that others and external situations can't make you happy, and in fact is mostly unreliable and frequently lets one down. It's then when one realizes that happiness comes from self acceptance and self care while living selflessly.

When you ask what is the point of living without a girlfriend, I completely understand the question and feeling. But I also know the gift of life is bigger than a girlfriend.

These days I explore art and creativity, writing and music, philosophy and things outside our harsh material world, things that distinguish our species from carnal things. She is the loveliest girfriend, and most caring wife and her love and beauty fills me to satisfaction, and maybe one day I'll find a romantic love to share these gifts of life with until we're very old. Carl Jung called her the anima, and integrating her into the psyche is a major step of self development especially if romantic love escapes you.

Hope you find one of the two or both friend, and I wish you happiness.

 

[TheSkaFish]

At one point being with someone in a romantic intimate relationship was a big priority, a hot burning flame. Then I got older and that flame started to diminish. Sooner or later one starts to grapple with existential questions and questions of meaning. Questions about personal growth and self worth. Sometimes those relationships and their aftermath forces you to find a way to be happy without them, because the ignorant bliss of youth gets replace with the knowledge that others and external situations can't make you happy, and in fact is mostly unreliable and frequently lets one down. It's then when one realizes that happiness comes from self acceptance and self care while living selflessly.

When you ask what is the point of living without a girlfriend, I completely understand the question and feeling. But I also know the gift of life is bigger than a girlfriend.

These days I explore art and creativity, writing and music, philosophy and things outside our harsh material world, things that distinguish our species from carnal things. She is the loveliest girfriend, and most caring wife and her love and beauty fills me to satisfaction, and maybe one day I'll find a romantic love to share these gifts of life with until we're very old. Carl Jung called her the anima, and integrating her into the psyche is a major step of self development especially if romantic love escapes you.

Not my thread I know, but this is something I've been feeling.

For me it's the opposite. I feel like if I had a relationship, had the peace of mind that I knew I was going to experience it, and the peace of mind that I was good enough for one, that I was NOT a loser, NOT inherently inferior, then I could enjoy interests again.

However, if ALL I have to look forward to is "interests" - empty distractions like TV/movies, video games, surfing the net, listening to music, walks and other exercise, volunteering, hobbies, or philosophy - then I'm not interested in these things at all. I find myself able to care about them less and less, only doing them out of habit rather than genuine desire or engagement, because I always viewed them as distractions while waiting for a relationship, much like fiddling around on your phone while in a waiting room. I think these things are a complement to a life, not a replacement for it. I really don't get interested in, excited about, or feel like any of that stuff is worth the trouble anymore, because I know it's not going to make up for not having a girlfriend - not even close - and if that's all I feel like I have to look forward to, then it feels like I have nothing to look forward to at all. It's not good enough for me. These things aren't worth the trouble of engaging with, and don't excite me that much, because to me they aren't nearly rewarding enough to make up for not having a girlfriend. I'll still feel trapped in a life that sucks even with those things, so it doesn't excite me or make me feel like anything more than spending the bare minimum energy, effort, or attention is worth it. If that's all there is, it feels like there is no point, both because it means I'll never escape inferiority and reach normalcy, and also because I'll miss out on one of life's most fundamental experiences. Hobbies and philosophy just can't make up for that.

It's like being in jail.
But you have all the time in the world to think!
Yeah, maybe, but to what end and purpose? You're still in jail.
For me the main purpose of thinking is to get out of this prison, this personal hell - not to just distract myself out of hopeless resignation to it, much the same as if I just got wasted every day.

I know it's one of those "your mileage may vary" things and if someone else is happy with that, that's their business and that's fine. But it's not for me, and this is something I've always known about myself.

 

[Unsigned]

In my younger years I would have understood your situation completely, but getting older my view is changing a lot.

I am the exact opposite of this.
When young I did want a girlfriend, but I was OK with living life the way I was doing things.
I wasn't getting depressed over it.
In fact when I was in my twenties and early 30s I kind had an air of superiority because of what I did (which was very foolish).

Since my mid forties though, I've realized that I missed out and screwed up by living life the way I did.
And now it's just too late.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I am the exact opposite of this.
When young I did want a girlfriend, but I was OK with living life the way I was doing things.
I wasn't getting depressed over it.

Yep. This was me as well.

I didn't do things in the same way of course.
I didn't even look at ****, drink, smoke weed, anything.
I actually didn't want any of that sh*t.
In fact, I kind of disliked how I saw the interest in *** take over people's lives, and push out more innocent interests. You reached a certain age, and all the sudden everything was about ***, or about being "edgy" - no one just liked things for liking things' sake anymore. It seemed like a cold, cynical turn for the worse - especially because in that world, your value isn't determined by you, but by others. You don't have value inherently, like I thought I was taught to believe. It meant to embrace the a**hole "cool kids'" belief system of predetermination, that you were only as good as what you were born with, and what others said you were. I wasn't born with the right body and background to be an "insider", and I never liked the idea that I could only get so far in their hierarchy, and no more.
When I was younger, my interests really were enough.
It was enough for me to get lost in fandom universes and geek out over the smallest details.
It was basically all Star Wars all the time.
I thought, this is me, this is my interest, it's who I am, and it's a free country - I'm getting my work done, I'm not hurting or bothering anyone, I can do what I want, I don't have to be fake and conform, that's obeying the a**holes, why would I want to play that game just so I can lose and be a willing participant in my own humiliation, and in acknowledging people I hated as superior?
I can't be like the bros even if I wanted to, I'm staying in my lane and not trying to be something I'm not/not trying to be cool and fit in, so why can't I like what I like in peace?
Besides I thought I shouldn't want to, because they seemed to do the opposite of everything I was taught was mature and morally right - and were rewarded despite/because of it, something I hated to no end.
But I thought, I just have to wait longer than the dudebros, bad boys, and the guys that were good at stuff like people that had their own bands or something like that (to be fair, this latter group wasn't necessarily bad, I only mention them because like the bad ones, women chose them first because they were impressive).
But I'll get my turn, and I was content to wait in that peace of mind.
I thought women will outgrow those guys one day, realize they're misogynistic jerks, and give me a chance.
I thought no one knows who they are at that age, or who they like, it can change from one year to the next.
And I thought, I'm supposed to just worry about getting good grades anyway.
I just have to wait longer, is all.
I might as well make myself comfortable while I get my work done and wait my turn.

And wait...

And wait...

And wait...

I think you see where this is going.

Looking back, I don't know.
On the one hand I still think it was good that I stayed true to my interests and nature, and wholesome values I was raised with, and didn't embrace cynicism.
And that for most of my life there really wasn't anyone around that I would have been a good match with anyway.

It also took me a long time to leave the "hot girl" thing behind, and to realize that I didn't even like most of them as people, I found them either obnoxious, cold, shallow, immature, boring, or just not relatable. I couldn't have true feelings for them, I couldn't actually care about them, or get the emotional closeness and warmth from them that I wanted. Our beliefs and worldviews don't match, in fact they're opposites - they're pro-hierarchy (because it benefits them), and I'm anti- - perhaps for self-interest as well, but I do think it's the higher, more civilized, and kinder way. I would not have felt good to actually live with them every day. We didn't even have anything to talk about.

However, now I think I should have been more balanced. As a man you have to tick off so many boxes. I compared myself to the bros, that it was all just automatic for, not realizing that they had their boxes ticked off by default where I did not - they were playing the same game as me, but on Easy mode while I had no choice but to play on Hard. Maybe I was still OK to not date, or even be interested in it back then, but I should have been taking the time to build myself up as a complete person - career, style, something to make me cool/exciting/like myself, etc. Instead, I kind of gave up on myself from the beginning out of feeling that I wasn't as "high quality" or lucky as most people seemed to be, and I didn't really try to challenge that, because I thought you're either born with it or you're not. I stayed in that place of feeling insulted and angry about it, instead of doing something to attack the problem - I didn't think I was talented or lucky enough to attack it, and I thought if I could just get into the white-collar world, none of this would matter anyway. I could get the stuff I wanted, the car, the clothes, lift weights, and I'd finally get out of loserdom and reach "good enough".

Now, I'm older, and I think I've figured it out.
It was OK for me to like whatever fandoms I wanted to, but I needed to balance that with something that gave me a sense of strength, power, and pride. Deep down I always wanted that. That was always the antidote to the loser narrative I both felt stuck in, and hated - but that I never believed I could, because of talent.
And I never believed I had to, because I thought school was all that mattered and I felt that while I was not the best, I was good enough. There was a better tier that I was not in, but I was still grouped with the people that are professionals today, smarts-wise.

Now I know how the game works and how I should have always played my cards.
I have a better sense of who I am and what I want to go for.
But while I still feel as vital, energetic, in my best shape since high school, and mentally sharp as ever, maybe sharper - still as I approach 40 I'm afraid it's too little, too late.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I'm late to this thread and it seems to have derailed but I thought I would comment on your original post for what it's worth.

In my younger years I would have understood your situation completely, but getting older my view is changing a lot.

At one point being with someone in a romantic intimate relationship was a big priority, a hot burning flame. Then I got older and that flame started to diminish. Sooner or later one starts to grapple with existential questions and questions of meaning. Questions about personal growth and self worth. Sometimes those relationships and their aftermath forces you to find a way to be happy without them, because the ignorant bliss of youth gets replace with the knowledge that others and external situations can't make you happy, and in fact is mostly unreliable and frequently lets one down. It's then when one realizes that happiness comes from self acceptance and self care while living selflessly.

When you ask what is the point of living without a girlfriend, I completely understand the question and feeling. But I also know the gift of life is bigger than a girlfriend.

These days I explore art and creativity, writing and music, philosophy and things outside our harsh material world, things that distinguish our species from carnal things. She is the loveliest girfriend, and most caring wife and her love and beauty fills me to satisfaction, and maybe one day I'll find a romantic love to share these gifts of life with until we're very old. Carl Jung called her the anima, and integrating her into the psyche is a major step of self development especially if romantic love escapes you.

Hope you find one of the two or both friend, and I wish you happiness.

Hi Frank!

I suppose it's that the feeling from this side is that I've lived long enough "flying solo" as it were, I've done it and really have no aspirations for what I want to do for the next 50 years if that is going to be just more of the same. I definitely agree that everyone should spend a bit of time on their own pursuing interests and arts that they enjoy, but I'm sorta over that now, and the prospect of "Just keep going to work, pursuing interests on evenings and weekends, then repeat" for the rest of my life just sounds depressing as hell.

For the record, I am not looking for the love of my life, nor am I looking to move in with the next person I meet, I'm just looking to live in a world where more than zero single women find me somewhat attractive. I never really thought I'd actually have to wish for something as basic as that, but here we are.

 

[Frank Peterson]

Hi Frank!

I suppose it's that the feeling from this side is that I've lived long enough "flying solo" as it were, I've done it and really have no aspirations for what I want to do for the next 50 years if that is going to be just more of the same. I definitely agree that everyone should spend a bit of time on their own pursuing interests and arts that they enjoy, but I'm sorta over that now, and the prospect of "Just keep going to work, pursuing interests on evenings and weekends, then repeat" for the rest of my life just sounds depressing as hell.

For the record, I am not looking for the love of my life, nor am I looking to move in with the next person I meet, I'm just looking to live in a world where more than zero single women find me somewhat attractive. I never really thought I'd actually have to wish for something as basic as that, but here we are.

Understandable. It's natural to need that.

I've been alone for many years due to my first wife trying to poison me for insurance money. I can never really trust again, though I've tried to overcome that.

I get sad sometimes when I see couples with children, I think I would have been a good father. I write fantasy stories as a hobby, and the characters sometimes represent the caring wife and kids I don't have. I imagine my daughter as strong willed and witty, fighting with her father about rules lol. I get sad sometimes thinking of the meaning that could bring to life.

But more intelectual, spiritual pursuits and finding self worth beyond external validation have become a way of living that I find fascinating and meaningful, so I wanted to say it's an option, while maybe not the ideal for everyone.

If we were irl friends I could try and help more directly, maybe go out with you as a wingman, introduce you to someone or support you better, but I'm just a guy on the internet.

All I can offer is a kind word and advice that worked in my case.

I do suspect though, that you have strength you are unaware of that is overshadowed by the situation, because it can be a dark place.

All the best.

 

[Running Alone]

Not my thread I know, but this is something I've been feeling.

For me it's the opposite. I feel like if I had a relationship, had the peace of mind that I knew I was going to experience it, and the peace of mind that I was good enough for one, that I was NOT a loser, NOT inherently inferior, then I could enjoy interests again.

However, if ALL I have to look forward to is "interests" - empty distractions like TV/movies, video games, surfing the net, listening to music, walks and other exercise, volunteering, hobbies, or philosophy - then I'm not interested in these things at all. I find myself able to care about them less and less, only doing them out of habit rather than genuine desire or engagement, because I always viewed them as distractions while waiting for a relationship, much like fiddling around on your phone while in a waiting room. I think these things are a complement to a life, not a replacement for it. I really don't get interested in, excited about, or feel like any of that stuff is worth the trouble anymore, because I know it's not going to make up for not having a girlfriend - not even close - and if that's all I feel like I have to look forward to, then it feels like I have nothing to look forward to at all. It's not good enough for me. These things aren't worth the trouble of engaging with, and don't excite me that much, because to me they aren't nearly rewarding enough to make up for not having a girlfriend. I'll still feel trapped in a life that sucks even with those things, so it doesn't excite me or make me feel like anything more than spending the bare minimum energy, effort, or attention is worth it. If that's all there is, it feels like there is no point, both because it means I'll never escape inferiority and reach normalcy, and also because I'll miss out on one of life's most fundamental experiences. Hobbies and philosophy just can't make up for that.

It's like being in jail.
But you have all the time in the world to think!
Yeah, maybe, but to what end and purpose? You're still in jail.
For me the main purpose of thinking is to get out of this prison, this personal hell - not to just distract myself out of hopeless resignation to it, much the same as if I just got wasted every day.

I know it's one of those "your mileage may vary" things and if someone else is happy with that, that's their business and that's fine. But it's not for me, and this is something I've always known about myself.

AMEN! This is me. Loads of distractions, many rewarding in their own way even (especially my special needs volunteer work at a nearby church)...but at the end of the day when you lay your head down ALONE, yeah, you've always known it's all just camouflage - and after many decades worth of that the brutal reality is cemented in, the thing you'd like to tune out but can't, that you're a reject, at least in the eyes of most women and that's just how it is. My only hope is that someday I cross paths with a lady reject and we're a good match (but I'm running out of time, have serious doubts and believe my path is meant to be alone). No amount of therapy, positive words, constructive plans, plucky attitudes, etc, is going to fix physical qualities the opposite *** simply chooses to pass on.

 

[Frank Peterson]

Maybe this is just a sounding board for perpetual victims. It's sad when denied entitlement becomes an identity. Then no one can help anymore, and you feel frustrated by good advice, or see the advice as holier than thou speak.

A colleague once told me that if lust overcomes your intelligence, you cease being human, for overcoming by intelligence is our greatest freedom.

I'll leave and not waste your time anymore friends, may you break free of your made up cages. Keep liking and agreeing with the comments that keep you exactly where you are.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Maybe this is just a sounding board for perpetual victims. It's sad when denied entitlement becomes an identity. Then no one can help anymore, and you feel frustrated by good advice, or see the advice as holier than thou speak.

A colleague once told me that if lust overcomes your intelligence, you cease being human, for overcoming by intelligence is our greatest freedom.

I'll leave and not waste your time anymore friends, may you break free of your made up cages. Keep liking and agreeing with the comments that keep you exactly where you are.

It's not "entitlement". It's normal life.
People are dismissed as "entitled" today, for wanting things that used to be "normal" not that long ago.
Honestly, it's elitist, and if you ask me it needs to stop.
What used to be "normal life" that no one thought twice about, today is "wanting too much", and you need to learn to settle for distractions until you expire.
When what used to be ordinary, has become a luxury, we've gone backwards.

I've always felt like "entitlement" is a word the "insiders" use, to beat down the "outsiders".
I never heard it, or much about "self-improvement", until the 2010s.
Nobody talked about that stuff back in the '90s or '00s.
You just became friends with, and dated, people that liked the same stuff as you, that you got along with.
It wasn't this grueling slog, this uphill battle requiring Herculean effort and tons of dumb luck.
Sure, the muscular, rich, and/or "bad" guys got to date first, as did the hot women.
But eventually everyone else got their day, they just had to wait a little longer is all.
Back then "self-improvement" was like, what, self-help books? I never knew anyone that read those, at least not that seriously. They seemed like things people understood to just be repackaged platitudes that someone put their own spin on to make money, but that must not really work, or else we'd all be millionaires running around high-fiving each other on our perfect lives.

Back then it was all about "being yourself" and "not changing yourself to fit in".
Today it's DON'T be yourself, be the ideal, and if you can't, you're just f*cked then, just keep going to work and fiddle around distracting yourself while you wait for the heart attack.

I've said it a million times, but people these days act like someone saying they want something as normal as a relationship - not a relationship with only the absolute hottest women, but a relationship with anyone - is like saying they want a Lamborghini, an elite country club membership, a billion dollars, wanting to be a professional athlete, or wanting to be famous. Like it's this exotic luxury experience that's reserved for only the best, brightest, most superior people, and if you're not one of them, how dare you even say it.

It's not in the same category at all. It's normal. Lots of people who do nothing particularly special with their lives, who don't go above and beyond at all in any area and aren't even interested in doing so, still manage to have relationships.

Again, it's not simple lust, it's a desire for the whole romantic package, as well as a desire for normalcy. A desire for being "just OK", "normal", "good enough".


Also, and this is not quite the same, but when I was younger, being against the system/power/elite, was cool.
It was cool to flip the system off.
Today it seems a lot of people take their side.
A lot of people think the system is right, being on the system's side is cool now.
Today people act like the hierarchy/natural selection, is just and right - or that it isn't and it doesn't matter, because good and evil are "out", and strength and weakness, lucky and unlucky, are "in".
A lot of people seem to agree with "might/cunning/luck, make right, and if you're not one of the mighty/cunning/lucky/'better' people, then it sucks to be you/sucks to suck, just go resign yourself to a life of distractions and despair, and do so quietly - the 'better' people are trying to have fun here!"
A person used to be looked at not too kindly for being elitist. But it's like elitism is mainstream now.
I don't get it, what changed?

---

I've been alone for many years due to my first wife trying to poison me for insurance money. I can never really trust again, though I've tried to overcome that.

Sorry about this, though. I'm sure that would be enough to sour anyone on people, in general. Can't blame you for that.

 

[user 191088]

I agree with @Frank Peterson, at the very least you should give our suggestions here a try and then come back and tell us if they worked or not, at least this way you could tell us "yeah, I tried that, didn't work", but it seems like not even that is feasible for the time being. Are we asking too much? I don't think so, but sometimes just complaining and complaining about something does indeed seem better than actually trying to solve a problem, even if in the end it isn't the best course of action to take.

It's not "entitlement". It's normal life.
People are dismissed as "entitled" today, for wanting things that used to be "normal" not that long ago.

Used to? Sometimes you talk about it as if it were normal, others as if it no longer were normal. You have to decide which one is the case. @Frank Peterson is right, it is a sad thing when denied entitlement becomes an identity. I'm not saying that's your case, but to me it seems like you're getting there. I can assure you one thing, though, what's neither normal or good - or, at least, shouldn't be - is believing you must, no matter the cost, achieve this thing, this state of being that's extremely difficult or nearly impossible for you to achieve, because, yes, if you still haven't found a special other by this point, there's very little prospect for you, things aren't going to get any better in the future, you know? Let's face it, Ska, you have only two choices: you can either accept your predicament or you can live the rest of your life frustrated and depressed because you never fulfilled this one small, pesky desire which basically amounts to the reproductive imperative of animals but coated in a veneer of romanticism and civility. Which one will it be?

 

[TropicalStarfish]

Quit beating a dead horse.

The simple answer is, no, therapy is unlikely, to change one's level of physical attraction. What in the flying f*ck is in the water around here?

Attraction is a multi-faceted aspect of any person involving perceived reproductive physical fitness/health, confidence, status, circumstance, general personality, behavior patterns, quirks, style, swagger, etc.. etc.. Beyond that, there is perception, as in: beauty is in the eye of the beholder stuff. Then there are cultural, societal, etc.. norms, expectations, and influences.

Can therapy _perhaps_ help improve confidence, self perception, self image, internal conflicts, elucidate mental confusions, etc.. etc..? Sure, maybe, if the counselor is decent, a good fit, and you are in a receptive position for such a setting to be beneficial.

If you can afford therapy and are considering it, hit the yellow pages if you like. Try a few. If the shoe fits, wear it for a while. There's also life coaches these days, which is another thing to consider: a non- 'clinical setting' involving a person who will devote some time to you and your particular concerns.