Morality of Cheating

[AFrozenSoul]

Sorry for the vague title, and if this is in the wrong place.  I figured this particular thread would get more attention here.  Feel free to move it if it seems unfit.
 
So on another forum I am on.  A guy kind of went on a small rant about how annoyed he is at the community.  His beef was with the fact that the community has no problem with men wooing women who are already in relationships.  The few sentences he wrote are a little vague, however, that is the gist of what he wanted to say.
 
Basically, the few who replied to the thread, came to an agreement that it is not wrong for men and women to woo men and women in relationships.  Why, for one simple reason.  The man/woman is well aware of his or her situation, and makes the choice to continue down the path they do.  After all, men and women are not objects that can be taken and traded right?
 
Another reason I explained, on the thread, is the social stigma that comes with being women.  This stigma is often times MUCH MUCH worse for women.  So it is not uncommon for women to take a boyfriend to avoid this stigma.  Attraction is irrelevant when taking a title.  After all, it is easy to specify actions a boyfriend should take as opposed to a guy friend.  As I have seen in many places, having a boyfriend or husband does not imply anything.  All it implies is you have taken a title. 
 
So I guess my main question to everyone is, who is wrong in this situation?  Because when I sit down and think about my beliefs.  If the one person is single, then the answer is obvious.  The person who is taken is in the wrong.  However, we then have to quantify what Single means.  Does single mean you don't have the title Boyfriend/Girlfriend?  Does single mean that you are seeking a new mate?  What does single mean?  Hell what constitutes you as no longer single?  Another good question is, what constitutes cheating?
 
My personal beliefs are that as long as I am single I am not wrong for trying to woo any mate, regardless of her martial status.   After all, I am unattached in this situation.  Just because she is taken does not mean I will suddenly not be attracted to her.  To answer the question of what I qualify as single.  That is easy, I am no longer single when a verbal agreement to be exclusive is made.  I don't care if we have been dating and having sex for years.  If said female does not ask for a verbal agreement not to see anyone else, then I am not taken by her. 
 
I am sure there are other questions that will arise.  However, I cannot think of any right now.  Please share your thoughts?

 

[Sci-Fi]

Well, this depends on each persons own perception of what they deem to be right or wrong. Like you said here

My personal beliefs are that as long as I am single I am not wrong for trying to woo any mate, regardless of her martial status

I completely disagree with you. To me it doesn't matter if you are single, if you woo a person who is in a relationship (even worse married) then you too are in the wrong. Think about it this way, you are that other person in a relationship, your mate is being woo'd by another person, how would that make you feel? To me if you are involved with a person that you care about, and are considering a relationship with a title does not matter. You don't start wooing another person, it's just inconsiderate of the other persons feelings that are involved.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

For me....
When Im single it means Im not in a relationship or commitment.
Its pretty clear and simple.

when Im dating..its clear to the women
Im dating..Im not committed until we decide to go to the next level.
Its an agreement on both parties.
INTEGRITY???

Of course most men wanna wooo my partner away from me becuase of the women I choses.
.
Poeple like that will justify whatever the **** they wanna do...in the name of whatever morility...blah..blah.
Mental or emotional manipulations...etc..etc.

if a relationship dosnt work out..
well **** break up and become single
again...Much more simple..NO?
But **** thats too simple for fucken
some people..

when it gets toxic or messy like that...
Poeple will say stuff like...
"people are gonna do whatever the **** theyre gonna do...and I have no control over that..

The serenity prayer and whatever the **** wisdom Im suppost to get out that....becuiase **** happens..

---

Becuase relationships arnt always peaches ans cream...
Arguments . Disagreements are all part of it...If left along without a third toxic party involved...a couple will usually make up or settles their difference...
compremise..etc..etc or work through whatever issues they had..then the romance and being love stage starts again...when my partner are in love with me....yes, its easy...no one can take her away from me..
When were figthing..Were both vuanable emotionally...This is when the woooing and **** talking begins..

Just like what Im going through with Renae...Were trying to work through
whatever issues we have. Were making up...its hasnt been easy cuase their lots of guys wanting her...

It would had been much more simple or less hurt if good ethical people was around her....
Never the less I love her just the same and she loves me too inspite of all the ********.

In so many ways...Ill have to get over it or let go ..sugar coated version or
straight up version. Move forward.

---

So when I got together with Jennifer..
I was single..she was single.
Stuff I do to also let Renae know...
I can get beautiful women and do whatever is celver too...
Is so many ways..its like me
saying Im not better than her
or I can play dirty too...
Were all caiplable of falling short..its easy.

I love Reane very much.

 

[Equinox]

Generally, a person is single when they are not in a committed relationship. For me it's irrelevant whether or not that relationship has some kind of verbal agreement or not; if we were e.g. living together, or just basically spending a lot of time together and doing typical "couple stuff", I wouldn't see myself as single. However, some people draw the line at different stages, and that's fair enough. We're all different.

As for the morality issue, I can see both sides in this. Personally, I'd never hit on a guy that I knew was taken, for several reasons. Partly because I wouldn't want to ruin what would (probably) be a happy relationship for him, partly because I could never imagine that he'd leave his current partner for me anyway, and partly because I'd feel bad about his current partner, especially if he'd choose to leave her for me. Also, there's a good saying that states "once a cheater, always a cheater", meaning if you start a relationship with someone while they're actually taken, how can you trust them not to betray you in the same way later on? I'd never feel comfortable or safe with a guy that I'd manage to "steal" from someone else.

On the other hand, if some other girl were to hit on my boyfriend, I should probably be grateful no matter the outcome. If he rejected her, he'd be proving to me that I could trust him and that he was really serious about our relationship. If he were to cheat on me with her, or dump me for her, then I'd realize maybe he wasn't the kind of guy I thought he was after all, in which case good riddance.

In the end, I guess it all comes down to perspectives.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

Yeah man...Im just fucken ADAM...

I ate the fucken apple too after EVE ate it...the god damn snake talking ****..blah..blah..balh

Adam Loves Eve that much.
I love Reane that much...

but its kind da like all that god stuff
is bring us back to paradize....
forgiveness..blah..blah blah and al that good ****.

 

[SkuzzieMuff]

Single is not married by law. I don't think it's wrong for a guy to hit on a girl that is in a relationship, but if he starts to push her into doing things she is uncomfortable with, or if she says that she doesn't feel comfortable with his advance, he should back off. Is it that hard for people to communicate? But I can only say from that way, because a girl flirting with a man who's in a relationship looks like bad news to me, but that's because I believe men are driven by thier dicks and are more likely to cheat. (hehe)

 

[blackhole]

because it is wrong to break things

like walking into a china shop...

picking up something and smashing it on the floor

arguably, if you are some sort of pick up artist,

this is what you are doing...

it may not be "technically" wrong,

but it's close enough to cruel that i wouldn't want anything to do with it.

 

[SofiasMami]

My personal beliefs are that as long as I am single I am not wrong for trying to woo any mate, regardless of her martial status.   After all, I am unattached in this situation.  Just because she is taken does not mean I will suddenly not be attracted to her. 

So when you're in a relationship that you've both committed to, it would be ok for an unattached man to woo your woman. You wouldn't consider him wrong for doing that. Right?

Teresa

 

[floffyschneeman]

for whether it is moral or not, it depends on each person's definition of the word. But I personally think it is wrong to woo, even if you are single, a person who is committed to someone else for the simple reason that knowing that person is taken, by wooing him/her, you are also aware your actions will deliberately not only put that person in a confusing state, but hurting someone who hasn't done anything bad to you and especially because of your own immediate desire.

The first attraction, reasons as to why you would woo someone, is always base on superficial reasons, e.g. physical appearance or perceived good qualities. This would mean that you are still not madly in love with that person and can easily detach your attraction to someone who's single and available.

I also find it a flaw in society to defend something provoking our human vulnerability. We expect men and women to have integrity and loyalty and yet we are also saying that it is alright for single people to woo people who are committed when all of us can attest that human nature have a very huge tendency to be in a vulnerable, confused state. Times when we fail to uphold the principles we try to live by.

It's like we are expecting people to do the expected right thing yet we are continually provoking and testing them to do the opposite.

---

Out of topic:

while typing this, I had a sub thought of how society is like nowadays. We criticized the old times for having very uptight principles or doing things, like always trying to do the ''right'' thing and now we've created a society totally opposite to that where it is not about what is right or wrong but what feels good and what doesn't. When will we learn the word ''balance''

 

[TheSolitaryMan]

To me it's simple.

Single = Not romantically involved with anyone else.
Not single = Romantically involved with someone.

I'm classed as single. This means I can flirt, go out with, whatever with other single people, but doesn't give me a right to hit on "not single" people. They're strictly off-limits.

The reason is that if anything happens to the relationship between those two people, it's my fault. I am the instigator to any temptation and the opener of any rifts in that relationship, so if anything I'm more morally to blame than the person that's having the "affair".

Another simple moral rationalisation - if I had something great going with a girl, would I want some random single guy taking her away from me? No.

If I would find that a soul-crushing experience, what right do I have to wreak that same havoc on others?

(I'll add, though slightly off-topic, that I'd be very harsh on anyone who cheated on me. When meeting up and sleeping with another person is easier in their mind than talking through some problems with their partner, that says to me that something is seriously wrong).

 

[AFrozenSoul]

New Thoughts​

A lot of people have asked me how I would feel if some guy flirted with my mate. You know I thought about it a bit, and thought that is really a confidence booster for me. It shows that I have a desirable mate. It shows that my mate is better than yours because she has guys trying to get with her.

I can also look at it as a challenge. That challenge is to be the best mate I can be. I have noticed that about so many people. We all like to hide behind contracts and terms like unconditional. So many men and women, like my former roommate, who get a commitment and then stop trying to be attractive. They gain weight and become boring. They stop trying to be an impressive mate. Then they get sad when their mates eyes wander. I wonder why people feel they only have to be attractive, and sometimes not even then, to get their mate. Yet they feel no desire or drive to remain attractive after they get a commitment.

Also I know that if I flirt with taken women, that men might flirt with any women I am with. Like Is aid I see it as a challenge to remain the best mate I can be. After all, if I am attractive to her she won't want to leave. If she does leave, I can replace her.

---

Sorry for the slow reply.

@Sci-Fi: First off, the only way I can know if someone is in a relationship is if they tell me. So, if I am flirting with a girl who is somewhere with her girlfriends and a boyfriend or husband is never mentioned, what then? In the end it is the other person's job to tell me they are taken. Second off, I am not some lazy hypocrite. I have the same expectation of other men and women. It gives me motivation to be the most attractive mate I can be. I find that once in a relationship, of any kind, so many people let themselves go. In the end if said female accepts the advances of another guy. Well I don't want her in my life anyway. Title hunters are the lowest forms of life on this planet.

@Equinox: You mention a potentially happy relationship. I a man is seriously responding to your advances, is he really happy in his relationship? So you tell yourself, if he is in a relationship it must be happy? That relationship = happy? Because that is what I get from your reply.

As for your once a cheater always a cheater comment. I do believe this as well. However, at what point does it become cheating? If I talk to a girl in any manner that can be interpreted as flirting is that cheating? I kind of look at cheating like work. I have a job now, it is not a great job. However, the suffering is minimal. I want a new job, however, I am not going to quit my current job first. I am going to send out my resume and look around a bit. I will go to a few interviews and once I get the offer to work I can quit my job. I look at cheating in a similar fashion. Dating is harmless as long as it does not get in the way of my current relationship. First time in bed is the offer, from there a choice is to be made. Then again.. I am not one to judge. If she wants to be with me and him, that is her business. She will just know up front that she is little more than a sex toy to me.

@SkuzzieMuff: I guess my original post was not clear. I meant continued flirting only if she does not make it clear she is not interested. ^_^ Lets not start the driven by what to cheat. Given any amount of data I could make it look like women are going to cheat. Hell look at this forum. So many men are on here crying because their wives cheated on them and left them.

@blackhole: If a relationship is as fragile as fine china then it is not a good relationship

@SofiasMami: Refer to what I said to Sci-Fi

@floffyschneeman: So you are saying, that we should force people to stay loyal? After all, if a person truly loves the person they with they will have no problem rejecting another. In the end it comes down to the person who is taken right? After all, it is part of human nature to seek out the best mate we possibly can. To be honest it is hard to take any of your claims seriously while there is such a HUGE social stigma against single people. It is hard to take your argument seriously when there is such a thing a marriage and relationship counseling. You talk a big game, however, there are so many people in this world who are with a mate they hate.

@TheSolitaryMan: Ah yes the term romantically. Really that term is just a synonym for single or not. What qualifies as romantic? A date, a kiss, a ********, handcuffs and candle wax?

My question, how do you know it is great for her? If it is great for her won't she just turn down the guy? I think that is my biggest problem with our society. We refuse to earn our keep. It is the reason why men get boring once they are married and why women get fat. The very fact that people feel threatened by the idea of other potentially flirting with their mate shows they don't like rising to the challenge of always being the best mate they can be.

 

[TheSolitaryMan]

b]@TheSolitaryMan:[/b] Ah yes the term romantically. Really that term is just a synonym for single or not. What qualifies as romantic? A date, a kiss, a ********, handcuffs and candle wax?

My question, how do you know it is great for her? If it is great for her won't she just turn down the guy? I think that is my biggest problem with our society. We refuse to earn our keep. It is the reason why men get boring once they are married and why women get fat. The very fact that people feel threatened by the idea of other potentially flirting with their mate shows they don't like rising to the challenge of always being the best mate they can be.

It's nothing to do with "challenge" in my opinion. The only reason people feel threatened is because half the time they don't know it's going on, then they get their heart broken.

When you're married with someone, you're assuming that they trust and love you enough not to flirt or have flings with other people - if they are, it's a sign that they're not happy with you and they're not admitting it. That's a cause of deep upset for most people, not a sort of "game" that they can have fun or respond with.

As for what quantifies romantic...if I see a girl kissing another guy, I qualify her as romantically involved with him. Dates and physical stuff? Pretty obvious from then on out.

I'm yet to get a kiss, so I class that as a sign that it's the "opener" of a relationship. A girl kissing other guys is a clear sign that she cares about them on a level higher than friendship, and so really doesn't really need other people barging in.

I'm hardly an authority of knowledge on relationships, but I'd say breaking it down to what's "challenging" or "not challenging" about affairs is a gross oversimplification of the emotions involved.

 

[Equinox]

You mention a potentially happy relationship. If a man is seriously responding to your advances, is he really happy in his relationship? So you tell yourself, if he is in a relationship it must be happy? That relationship = happy? Because that is what I get from your reply.

No, I don't think that's really what I said. A person can be happy in a relationship, but doesn't have to be. Some are, others are not. It is, after all, possible to fall in love with more than one person. A guy (or girl) could be perfectly happy in their relationship but still feel attracted to others.

As for your once a cheater always a cheater comment. I do believe this as well. However, at what point does it become cheating? If I talk to a girl in any manner that can be interpreted as flirting is that cheating? I kind of look at cheating like work. I have a job now, it is not a great job. However, the suffering is minimal. I want a new job, however, I am not going to quit my current job first. I am going to send out my resume and look around a bit. I will go to a few interviews and once I get the offer to work I can quit my job. I look at cheating in a similar fashion. Dating is harmless as long as it does not get in the way of my current relationship.

The short answer to your first question is: It becomes cheating when you do something with another man/woman that you wouldn't feel comfortable telling your partner about. If you come home one evening and tell your partner "I flirted with the shop girl while I was paying for my groceries" and your partner doesn't mind, then that's fine. If you come home from a party and tell your partner you slept with someone else, and she doesn't mind, then that's fine too. If hearing this makes your partner feel sad/uncomfortable/angry, however, it is not alright, and you should have a talk about mutual boundaries. Actually, having a chat about boundaries from the start would probably be a good idea either way. If two people have completely different views on what counts as a "relationship" and what counts as "cheating", they probably shouldn't get together in the first place. But as for most normal, commited relationships, talking/flirting is usually as far as it should go before what you're doing is perceived as cheating.

I can't even begin to understand how anyone can compare being in a romantic relationship with having a job. Seriously? It is not the same thing at all, not even close. If my boyfriend were to actively look for another partner, go and dates and such, I would 1) feel absolutely heartbroken, and 2) develop serious issues regarding self image and trust. Looking for a new job while staying in your old is necessary, because being without a job for days, weeks or maybe months would create huge financial problems. Being single for a few days/weeks/months, however, would not. Looking to replace your current partner is outright disrespectful and incredibly insensitive. I would never forgive a guy who treated me that way. Unless you've had The Talk™ with your partner about relationship boundaries, and you agree that this is okay, dating others is NOT harmless.

 

[nerdygirl]

Obviously, you aren't the bad guy if you flirt with a girl who doesn't say she's already involved. Knowingly pursuing somebody who is already in a relationship, though, is a pretty crappy thing to do. I wouldn't want to get involved with a guy who would do that. I'd take it as a sign that he obviously doesn't respect the idea of a committed relationship.

 

[SofiasMami]

New Thoughts​

A lot of people have asked me how I would feel if some guy flirted with my mate. You know I thought about it a bit, and thought that is really a confidence booster for me. It shows that I have a desirable mate. It shows that my mate is better than yours because she has guys trying to get with her.

I can also look at it as a challenge. That challenge is to be the best mate I can be. I have noticed that about so many people. We all like to hide behind contracts and terms like unconditional. So many men and women, like my former roommate, who get a commitment and then stop trying to be attractive. They gain weight and become boring. They stop trying to be an impressive mate. Then they get sad when their mates eyes wander. I wonder why people feel they only have to be attractive, and sometimes not even then, to get their mate. Yet they feel no desire or drive to remain attractive after they get a commitment.

Also I know that if I flirt with taken women, that men might flirt with any women I am with. Like Is aid I see it as a challenge to remain the best mate I can be. After all, if I am attractive to her she won't want to leave. If she does leave, I can replace her.

There's dry theory-making and conjecture; then there's real life. Go on out into that big bad world and try out chasing a woman who's taken (just make sure her man isn't well-armed) and/or pair up with a beautiful, desirable woman who leaves you for a man (not flirts with a man, LEAVES you for a man) who chooses to chase her. Then let us know how you're doing.
I also wouldn't seriously date a man who didn't mind other men hitting on me. Just shows that he's not really serious and he might as well be single.

Teresa

 

[jjam]

removed

 

[IgnoredOne]

I would be pretty flattered, too, if other guys were interested in my girlfriend. This doesn't mean that I'm going to let it continue. Jealousy is a trait I'm rather proud of

 

[Lonesome Crow]

dude....it's exactly the same as poeple trying to fit you into a fucken box of whatever the **** thier idea
are of whatever the **** they think a perfect person should be.
So it's kind da limited or self impose prisons....
Well...you and I know we all dont fix exactly into whatever the **** that mode is.
If you mind washed enough or lack self worth...you're gonna let other people tell you
how to live in accordance to whatever the **** people believe how a person should act like...
when they themselve fall way...way the fucken short themselve to that fucken Idea...
Thats fucken nutz, lack common sence or good logic...

A relationship is kind of the sameway...in reality none of is perfect.
So people will say...strive for perfection. Will **** me...isnt that when the figthing
and disagreement begins..becuase who in the **** wrote the fucken book on perfection?

Everyone have a different perspective of life. You already know this.
So everyone is going to have a different perspective of what a relationship ought to be.

You also know on a personal level...that competing and compairing ourselves to others ***** up our self esteem...
So why would you compair relationships???
Ponder about this for a minute...

People that cheat are inconsiderate of others...it's simple.
Wheather your the person in a relationship or the person trying to steal.
KEEP IT SIMPLE...becuase all the complications are just diversion tactics or spins.

 

[AFrozenSoul]

@TheSolitaryMan: I guess my next question would be.... why do people think that once someone gets committed that all of the sudden their mate is not going to be desired by others?

@Equinox: Of course people's attraction to others just doesn't turn off after they get committed. My point is that if a committed man is responding to your advances, he is probably not as interested in his partner as you would want to think he is.

I guess my question to you would be can you cross a boundary if you cannot see it? As they say Assuming makes and *** out of U and ME.

I would love to discuss how my metaphor about jobs and relationships are the same. However, that is the point of this thread. It was a simple metaphor to describe a similar situation and idea.

@SofiasMami: Well I have already experienced option number 2. There is blame on both sides. However, in the end she is the one who cheated not me. Anyway, it does suck. Then again had I been a bit smarter and more attractive I could have kept her. I have met a few guys who have done option number 1. In the end all the women follow them home with no remorse. It is also why I asked this question.

@IgnoredOne: You make it seem like you have control over other men. What are you going to do chain her to your bed?

 

[Equinox]

Of course people's attraction to others just doesn't turn off after they get committed. My point is that if a committed man is responding to your advances, he is probably not as interested in his partner as you would want to think he is.

I partly agree with you, with emphasis on the word "probably" and with adding the word "usually". However, I do believe (because I've seen it with my own eyes) that some men (and women) are able to respond to advances from someone else despite being madly in love with their current partners. I think the reason for this is that some people quite easily forget about things that aren't right there at the time, and easily get distracted. If someone responds to advances while their partner is sitting right next to them, however, I would probably call that relationship a sinking ship.

I guess my question to you would be can you cross a boundary if you cannot see it?

Really short answer: Yes. Since you like metaphors, here's one: If I'm hiking in the eastern Norwegian woods, I can quite easily cross the border to Sweden without seeing it and without knowing it. The boundary, however, will still have been crossed.

I would love to discuss how my metaphor about jobs and relationships are the same. However, that is the point of this thread. It was a simple metaphor to describe a similar situation and idea.

Well, if you're going to use metaphors as your arguments, you should make sure they make sense. Romantic relationships and professional jobs cannot be compared, and I have already explained why.