Morality of Cheating

[IgnoredOne]

@IgnoredOne: You make it seem like you have control over other men. What are you going to do chain her to your bed?

Sexy, but no. I do have some control over other men, though. The promise of pain is a great anti-motivator on moving into my territory.

 

[AFrozenSoul]

@Equinox: True enough, there are plenty of people who innocently flirt back However, there are plenty of indications when it is not as innocent. When those flags are risen then it is not so innocent.

As for your border example. Even if the border is crossed. If no one tells you how can you know?

Actually, you told me how a man keeping you around while dating other women would hurt you. Well you gave one example, and I will invalidate it. If a person has sufficient savings a financial problem won't occur. Of course we are assuming a person is planning on finding a new job. Because just like in the case of a job. If you are not willing to look and deal with the problems that come with dating. Then you are not allowed to complain. Same thing applies with a job.

I guess I will give you my argument for why relationships are like jobs. So first off, unless you date for purely external reasons. Such as you don't want your friends and parents whining at you for being single all the time. How is getting something for yourself, like self-esteem, love, sex, companionship. How is that any different from getting a pay check?

I can even match parts of a relationship to parts of a job.

• Going to a Social Situation = Looking in wanted ads or going on a job hunting site
• Flirting = Giving out a resume
• Dating = Interviews
• Relationship = Having the Job

My metaphor is more than valid. Granted it shatters the innocent view that relationships hold. However, it is valid metaphor.

@IgnoredOne: True, but in reality the kind of woman who will get turned on by such threats and actions. Will be a vile woman who gets off on watching men beat each other senseless. She will spend her days pitting you against other men. Then when you lose she will dump you.

Jealousy seems like a good idea. However, it shows that she has options and you don't. That in turn will make her less attracted to you. Jealousy shows you are insecure that in turn affects her view of her confidence. Women are attracted to confidence.

Also remember, jealousy also shows that you don't trust her. Relationships are built on trust. Lack of trust leads to a feeling of being smothered and being a possession. Which is a turn off for either gender. ^_^ true alpha males don't get jealous. It is a sign of trust and confidence. Plus that is a game I don't play.

 

[IgnoredOne]

I have to say, for someone who hasn't been in a relationship(or many of them), you seem very set on making absolutist statements about women and relationships as a whole. Let us just say that things are a lot more nuanced than you appear to think; I don't really have any lack of options in regards to women to be honest either.

In my experience, though, women are significantly committed to relationships; not always, but often. It also has a lot to do with the girls that I'm fond of, and which I draw, I believe. The notion that alpha men share is hilarious. Any even casual study of anthropology dismisses that, and the more dominant the individual, generally the more greedy he/she gets.

 

[TheSolitaryMan]

I've always seen this "alpha" stuff as a bit stupid.

I mean, I don't mind so much when it's just used as a throwaway compact classification of successful people or something, but this "alphas do this, alphas do that, other people don't" is just dumb.

I'd like to think that in the hundreds of years of technological and philosophical progress we've made, we're more than just a bunch of glorified "alpha gorillas", lumbering around and asserting our dominance as we violently drag members of the opposite sex back to our houses

In fact, I think I first saw all this "alpha" stuff coming from the uber-feminists (IE. the ones that aren't feminists, but hate guys), because it makes males in particular sound like brutish, sex-ruled oafs who forcibly steal what they want.

Since then it seems to have spread to be adopted as this goal term for guys who are low in confidence ("I wanna be alpha!!11"), or women who want brutish, sex-ruled oafs for partners

Anyway, rant on that particular classification aside...

I'm with IgnoredOne on this. Frozen, some of your posts are making far too many assumptions.

Women are just 50% of the human race. You can't generalise and sum them up with "they'd do this in X situation, they'd do that in Y, they'd turn you on other men in Z".

Also, no, the job thing isn't valid in my view. Yeah, sure, you can make shallow comparisons on the surface between the two, but really it's just a bunch of non-sequiturs.

I have to have a job so that I can actually buy stuff and eat to stay alive. It's part of my contribution to society as a whole.

A relationship is optional and purely based on further enriching the life I already have built up. Plus it's totally to do with emotions and hormones, a trait which I don't think many jobs share.

I could just as easily say:

Going to a Social Situation = Looking for a new car
Flirting = Talking to a salesman
Dating = Signing the paperwork
Relationship = Having the car

Which is no less valid than your metaphor, but still completely vacuous and about a hundred miles out when you think about it.

 

[Equinox]

Also, no, the job thing isn't valid in my view. Yeah, sure, you can make shallow comparisons on the surface between the two, but really it's just a bunch of non-sequiturs.

I have to have a job so that I can actually buy stuff and eat to stay alive. It's part of my contribution to society as a whole.

A relationship is optional and purely based on further enriching the life I already have built up. Plus it's totally to do with emotions and hormones, a trait which I don't think many jobs share.

I could just as easily say:

Going to a Social Situation = Looking for a new car
Flirting = Talking to a salesman
Dating = Signing the paperwork
Relationship = Having the car

Which is no less valid than your metaphor, but still completely vacuous and about a hundred miles out when you think about it.

Yup, what he said. You should listen to this wise man. And to me. The main difference between looking for a new job while still having the old one, and dating while in a relationship? You won't hurt your boss' feelings by looking for a new job. When it comes to jobs, it's all about you and what you want, where you want to go etc., while a relationship is about mutual trust, support and consideration. You don't have an emotional relationship with your workplace or your boss. You can have a career at your workplace, but you can't have a career in relationships. (Well, some men attempt to have "careers" in relationships, and they're generally referred to by women as "********".)

If you truly can't see that a job and a relationship are two completely different things, and you can't understand why you shouldn't be dating other women when in a relationship, then you have some serious rethinking to do.

And just to clarify:
Relationship = being commited to one other person.
Being commited = being exclusive
Being exclusive = not dating other people

If you're in a relationship with someone, it should be because you're in love with them, and in which case you shouldn't feel the need to actively look for someone else. If you do, the only decent thing is to end your current relationship. Anything else is selfish, disrespectful and cruel.

I'm unsure of why this should be so difficult to understand. It's not exactly social rocket science.

 

[blackhole]

it's about being a man.

your word is all you have.

if you are a liar and a cheat,

then you can't also be a man.

you can however be a manboy or manchild,

which i find much less satisfying.

there are people in this world who will always justify their own actions.

for every act of *********gery, there are one million potential rationalizations.

and manboys/manchildren regularly utilize such thinking and tactics.

they forget, however, that doing this leads to testicular shrinkage, which is bad.

a little bit about being a man...

manboys/manchildren go through life thinking about things like:

- what is fair
- what is easy
- what is convenient

this is largely due to some sort of irregularity during their testicular development phase.

life is very often not fair, not easy, not convenient, and NOT a lot of things...

yet said manchildren still decide to be reactionary.

"oh, wahhh, life hasn't delivered perfection into my hands" sooooooooo i will behave as manchild.

this is wrong-headed.

true man is not reactionary.

he is solid like rock. beliefs are unshakable. principles are uncompromising.

(for some reason, as i write this now, my internal voice has moved toward russian, lol)

continuing now...

it's not about whether the woman you are with DESERVES to be treated with dignity and respect,

she may very well not based directly on her own actions or general lack of character.

but, we MEN, do not change our principles based on how someone behaves.

we ARE what we ARE.

to cheat is to choose a life as a manchild with irregularly-shapen and sickly withered testicles.

whereas to not cheat is to choose a life of manhood and, in general, testicular health.

don't do what you do because people do what they do.

do what you do because you stand for something.

words to live by.

 

[IgnoredOne]

Real men have Balls of Steel.

 

[Badjedidude]

^^^LOL that was pretty funny.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

The ironic twist of it all is...
I have 4 very beautiful duaghters all in their 20s and boys chases after all of them.
They all reached out to me.. talk about thier lives , relationship problems or challenges.. I get to hear it from thier angels. They all have been hurted. Very bad by boys.

Something is telling me it might serve me well if I foucs my time N energy on my girls.....

---

BTW...all my girls will Hurt all u whinnie.
smack talking little *******....

 

[AFrozenSoul]

@IgnoredOne: :/ it is not a matter of sharing. It is a matter of not showing a negative emotion. If you are secure about your position with a woman and her feelings for you. Why do you need to be jealous?

As for who is more committed in a relationship. I guess we have to determine the value of the word "committed". Plenty of studies have shown that men tend to have all the tendencies we dislike in women more than women. However, statistics are easy to manipulate so.... hard to say. In the end you are only as faithful as your options.

d@TheSolitaryMan: Nothing wrong with being idealistic. Well as long as you don't lose your realism. The fact that we can make such classifications says that we are not above certain things. When we can clearly pin why a successful person is successful and why a failure is a failure. We are not above or below such classifications. After all, if we were. We would easily be able to separate the emotional from the physical right? If we were where you think we should be. The idea of cheating would not exist now would it?

I will admit my philosophy is not from experience. I have heard these things from other guys. Just because it is not my own does that mean that these experiences are any less real? Does the fact that a man wrote a book detailing his observations make them any less valid? How can I make them valid? Give his credentials, such as his degree in psychology or maybe the fact that his method and idea have been challenged by Dateline. You know that news show that is considered to be high journalism? Did I mention Dateline couldn't disprove what he said? Maybe there is the fact that he teaches this method in weekend classes where he charges between $1500 and $3000 for two days of classes and always sells out of space? True this is just one men. So I turn to the thousands.. possibly millions of other men who use this system and sing its praises? Yes I am just one man. However, a lot of stuff I have said has been said to me and others by at several thousand men.

You miss the point of a metaphor friend. The point is to draw loose parallels. That is why "The Sea is a harsh mistress" is a favorite you hear often. Metaphors are supposed to be loose and creative. They are not supposed to be rigid.

@Equinox: The first thing you said made me laugh. I would seriously hurt my company if I left my job right now. I have the most experience with a particular system we use. So yes I may not hurt my boss per say, but I would hurt my company. In turn the company might lose its contract and then my company would go out of business and my boss would lose his job. There I hurt my boss by quitting.

I lived in Shouldland for several years. During this time I suffered plenty of depressive and suicidal episodes. Let us not forget all the stigma that comes with being single. The only time being single is ok is if you contribute GREATLY to society by yourself.

For the rest of what you said. Please refer to what I said about metaphors.

@blackhole: Problem with you statement is that it relies on a clear-cut idea of what cheating is. Well that and the fact that you bring gentiles into this. Nothing says "REAL MAN" like talking about your **** all the time right ? Real men only think of their dicks right?

Even still by your definition you are saying that the guilt falls to the committed party. So if I am single and I woo a woman who is committed to someone then I am not doing any wrong. After all, I have no prior commitments and everything falls to her right? So I have committed no wrong. Or am I missing something?

Your comment made me laugh. As this forum is populated almost entirely of Man-childs and Woman-childs.

 

[tangerinedream]

@blackhole: Problem with you statement is that it relies on a clear-cut idea of what cheating is. Well that and the fact that you bring gentiles into this.

I don't see how he brought non-Jews into it at all.

You are reading way too much into his post.

 

[Equinox]

The first thing you said made me laugh. I would seriously hurt my company if I left my job right now. I have the most experience with a particular system we use. So yes I may not hurt my boss per say, but I would hurt my company. In turn the company might lose its contract and then my company would go out of business and my boss would lose his job. There I hurt my boss by quitting.

However nice it may be that you might hurt the company if you left, that was never the issue. The issue was whether or not your boss' FEELINGS would be hurt if you were to actively seek another job while still holding your current position. These are entirely different matter, but I guess that makes no difference to you, since you've already shown that you're unable to separate things that does not relate to each other.

"Metaphors are supposed to be loose and creative. They are not supposed to be rigid," you said. Very true. Also, neither are they supposed to function as some force of law, or fact. Which, in this specific debate, renders your entire metaphore argument invalid. Congratulations, you just pwned yourself. (Or do you literally believe that "The Sea is a harsh mistress"? If so, please go back to school. ASAP.)

As for the rest of what you say, please refer to everything everbody else has told you since the beginning of this thread. Maybe you should try reading the meaning of what people are telling you, intsead of just browsing the words and looking for something you can make up more metaphors about?

 

[IgnoredOne]

I don't get how showing negative emotions makes me worse in the least; it is who I am and 'negative emotions' serve an useful purpose in life. And jealousy, perhaps, is a version of the protective instinct. I've never had a woman in my life really complain about it in the least who wasn't already about break up with me and I've been with quite a few girls.

I'm sure there are parallels in all things. There are similarities between my poptart and an orange; both have sugars and both are food. What's perhaps more valid is whether the inferences drawn from the comparison are of any use. I've joked before that a date is an interview for the boyfriend position, but the intimacy and instincts involved with most romantic relationships are very different from how most people feel about their job. There are a few who truly have love and passion for their careers, who treat it as almost a living thing worth devotion for its own sake and who derive pleasure simply from its processes; those do resemble relationships but such workaholics are not so common.

 

[AFrozenSoul]

@tangerinedream: God damn you spell check... I wanted to say genitals... >_>... damn

@Equinox: Again this is kind of funny to me. You are hung up more on my metaphor than the discussion at hand. -_- I guess I fell into the trap of you changing the subject though. So my bad there as well. The metaphor I used is valid regardless. I am sorry I shattered your innocent view of relationships.

So let me go back to your first post... hmmm ok... and reread what you said....Ok you failed to answer my question. My mistake for not clearly reading your first post. The question is WHO IS WRONG, I could care less why you wouldn't do it. The question is simple. With two sentient individual people. One is single and one is not. Both know the others situation. Who is wrong, is it the single person or the taken person?

To clarify your first post. There was no clear assignment of blame. You told me why you would not flirt with a taken man AND why you would not mind a woman flirting with your man. I can draw my own conclusions from this. However, since I try to avoid assuming. Tell me who you feel is wrong in a situation where a single person, man or woman, tries to woo a taken person. That is the question, not how you feel about doing it. Who is committing the wrong.

Also to clarify, lets skip past innocent flirting. We have established that can happen, and it is not always something we can control. Lets say the woman has given the man her phone number. The mate of whoever is taken is not around. This is generally a pretty clear sign that real wooing is occurring, not innocent fun wooing. To further clarify, I said it was the person who is not single. As that person knows damn well they have someone already. If the taken person is really happy with his or her relationship. Then the flirting will end in rejection. However, if that person is losing interest in his or her current mate. Then they might have no problem starting to pursue another.

@IgnoredOne: Whether or not to show jealousy is a personal thing. If girls have not complained about it then it sounds like you have balance. However, a question I would ask you is would you threaten another man who is flirting with your girl with her around? You know giving off a clearly hostile message to him right in front of the girl for her to hear and judge? Jealousy is a wasted emotion in my book. However, that is off topic and I am not saying anything more.

Enough on the metaphor. I get it I have shattered the innocent view of love for everyone. I will refrain from using the metaphor. I will leave this argument saying. That people don't want to see how it is a job. I doubt that there is anyone on this forum. Who would unselfishly give anything and everything to another person in a relationship, without asking for anything in return.

Rereading your first post you did not answer my question either. Again, I let us drift off topic. So why not read the original post and answer my question.

 

[tangerinedream]

@tangerinedream: God damn you spell check... I wanted to say genitals... >_>... damn

Once an English teacher, always an English teacher! lol

 

[IgnoredOne]

More or less; I make it a point to behave with my girl around me exactly as I do without her. Its part of my personality and she knows it anyway if we're in an intimate relationship; anything else seems a bit of hypocrisy. You talk as if my girl(or for that matter, almost any close friend) doesn't know my "less pleasant" sides of my personality as it is; its really no secret to anyone that I'm both very civil but also very territorial with strong opinions.

And believe it or not, I think that is one of the most attractive points of a man; its a large part of confidence that you are /not/ trying to hide parts of yourself just to appease someone. It feels hokey and genuinely weak that you're trying to appease a girl just because you think it'll make a better impression of yourself - but that's ridiculous, since if you're going to be with her, she is going to find out about your personality anyway.

Honestly, I think one of the best things I ever did was to stop trying to apologize for who I was and be proud of my being, warts and all. Trying to do things to make someone else happy or 'judge you well' is a losing game. If a girl(or a boy, for that matter) doesn't like me or admire me, sure, go right ahead. There are plenty of people who appreciate me for who I am, and I rather find people who reinforce my identity rather than detract from it.

 

[Equinox]

You want to go into semantics? Fine, I'll play that game.

Again this is kind of funny to me. You are hung up more on my metaphor than the discussion at hand. -_- I guess I fell into the trap of you changing the subject though. So my bad there as well. The metaphor I used is valid regardless. I am sorry I shattered your innocent view of relationships.

Oh, where do I begin ...
1. Indeed I am hung up on your metaphor. This is because you're using your metaphor as an argument to why cheating is okay. If you're going to use metaphors to illustrate your points about a topic, they should be right.
2. I haven't changed the subject. No traps were set. You're making assumptions.
3. Your metaphor is not valid. This has already been proven to you by me and others, explaining why. If you can't grasp that, then my hands are tied.
4. There you go making assumptions again. The only thing you've shattered is my hope for you being able to comprehend what people are telling you.

Ok you failed to answer my question. My mistake for not clearly reading your first post. The question is WHO IS WRONG, I could care less why you wouldn't do it. The question is simple. With two sentient individual people. One is single and one is not. Both know the others situation. Who is wrong, is it the single person or the taken person?

I'll stick to my list form, since it's clean and simple:

1. Actually, you asked several questions in your original post. These questions were (and I quote):
"Who is wrong in this situation?" (To which my answer was "I guess it all comes down to perspectives".)
"What does single mean?" (To which I answered what single means.)
"What constitutes cheating?" (To which I didn't answer directly at my first post, but have done so later, as I at that moment didn't realize this was a written exam.)
And finally: "Please share your thoughts?" (Which I did.)
2. It's called "I COULDN'T care less", if the feeling you're trying to express is that of not caring about something. If you COULD care less, then that means you actually do care.
3. If you don't care about people's thoughts on a subject, then why ask for them? This makes no sense.
4. Relationship questons are never simple. But if you're desperate for a simple answer to that one question, the answer is this: They're BOTH wrong. Since you didn't ask for a reason for my answer, I won't bother explaining.

You told me why you would not flirt with a taken man AND why you would not mind a woman flirting with your man. I can draw my own conclusions from this. However, since I try to avoid assuming. Tell me who you feel is wrong in a situation where a single person, man or woman, tries to woo a taken person. That is the question, not how you feel about doing it. Who is committing the wrong.

1. "Try to avoid assuming"? You should have started that a little earlier, like before you assumed you had shattered something.
2. I apologize if my answers have been unclear, and if explaining the background for reaching these conclusions has been confusing for you. Personally, I think a single person hitting on a taken person is doing something wrong, because by doing so they're not respecting the existing relationship, and thus not respecting the people in it. But, like I've said, that's MY opinion, and it all comes down to perspectives. Ultimately, however, the responsibility lies with the person who's taken.

If the taken person is really happy with his or her relationship. Then the flirting will end in rejection. However, if that person is losing interest in his or her current mate. Then they might have no problem starting to pursue another.

True. And if that person is losing interest in his or her current partner, they should end the relationship BEFORE they start giving out their phone number to other potentials. A relationship isn't a "safety net" to keep you entertained while you're pursuing others. If you're not serious and commited to your current partner, then end it, move on, and allow your partner to do the same. It's the only decent thing to do.

Anything else that isn't clear? Was this enough semantics for you? Am I still "off topic"?

 

[SofiasMami]

I get it I have shattered the innocent view of love for everyone... I doubt that there is anyone on this forum. Who would unselfishly give anything and everything to another person in a relationship, without asking for anything in return.

*Raises hand* I have. Have you ever taken care of an infant. I have and if that's not love, I don't know what is. Sure, it was a "job" if that's what you like to call it but I also bonded with and built a mother/child relationship with my child. And I hope I've provided a good foundation for her future relationships, romantic or otherwise.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinions like everyone else. But my life experiences are not like yours. Your perception is your reality and no one else's.

Teresa

 

[Lollipop286]

Blah okay.

In my opinion....nobody is at fault UNTIL the TAKEN person flirts back. But it is a little rude to flirt with someone taken, if you know they are taken.

 

[AFrozenSoul]

@Equinox: Ah yes much better was that so hard?

As for my metaphor, I will say I am willing to agree to disagree on it. Because having a job can be an emotional experience. Plenty of people can get emotionally attached to their job. Hence why workaholics tend to be happy without a mate. It is why people who love their jobs feel betrayed when they lose their job. Similar to how people feel betrayed when their mate leaves them. If my metaphor is wrong, then why do people say "I/he/she am/is married to my/his/her job"? Such a metaphor could not be valid or used. Yet it describes the kind of commitment someone has to their job.

Thanks for clearing that up. So you and I agree, in some small way. We believe that responsibility lies with the one who is taken. I can agree that a person who is single shares some wrong if it is revealed that the person they are hitting on is taken. However, if the circumstance occurs where the taken person does not reveal their status.

@SofiasMami: -_-... you really want my answer? I promise you that you won't like it... ESPECIALLY since you are a mother. However, this is a different topic feel free to PM me if you want my answer.