Questions for the Men

[Sci-Fi]

The question wasn't asking someone to speak for other men, it was directly towards the men who wouldn't. So anything he says would be his own opinion NOT for other men. He sure as hell does NOT speak for me. I come from a single parent home, if my mother read what he posted she would ream him a new ********. I found it to be extremely offensive and completely biased. It pissed me off. He used stereotypes and stigmas people put on single parent homes, which are a bunch of ******** in my opinion. There my be a few who match up to what he listed but not most as he implies. That is one of the most disgusting single minded lists about single mothers I have ever seen.

 

[MisterLonely]

It's not my personal experience either.
Yet if it has been his personal experience when dealing with single moms, it's not wrong in any way, we are all shaped by our experiences

 

[TheRealCallie]

To clarify, I'm not, in any way, taking it personally.  Think what you want about me, I don't care, whether as a single mother, a female or a person in general.  However, that list that was compiled has very little to do with single mothers and everything to do with low class people and people who aren't in the best shape.  It doesn't even categorize as only female.  And "MOST" single mothers don't fall into those categories.  I would feel this way about it even if I wasn't a single mother because it's simply not true.  

And I don't really think "a lot" of men feel that way about single mothers.  

Kids limit lifestyle choices and options a lot. So much so that there are many people out there that never want kids all together.
Yes, this one is true.  They can and sometimes do limit a lot of things.  When you have kids, you can't just pick and go whenever you want.  You can't do some things because sometimes you don't have a babysitter.  You have another life to care for. 

She wont have much time to spend with you because she's a single mom.
This one can also be true.  She won't have 24/7 to spend with you.  Aside from working, she does have other people she is responsible for, but that doesn't mean you would never see her and I'm sure she could find plenty of time to spend with you, if she wants to. 

You will most likely have to deal with their ex in some way. Drama.
Also true.  Unless the guy is a deadbeat dad and wants nothing to do with his kids, that guy will ALWAYS be part of the mom's life because they do share children.  Whether they see each other or not, he will still be a factor in her life because of the kids. 

You will always be a secondary concern to her.
As you should be when someone has a kid.  Even with my kids' father, my kids came first. 

These points are true, most of the time and I didn't say one word about them because they are.  The stuff that I did mention, I mentioned because they can apply to anyone, male or female, kids or no kids.  And I know more and have heard of more people without kids that fall into those things I mentioned that don't have kids.

---

It's not my personal experience either.
Yet if it has been his personal experience when dealing with single moms, it's not wrong in any way, we are all shaped by our experiences

Of course it's not wrong for him, PERSONALLY, to feel that way, he can feel however he wants.  But that's not what he did.  He based it on what HE thinks other men feel.  Speak for yourself, not your entire gender, especially when it's not true.

 

[Paraiyar]

These don't apply to all single moms but it applies to enough of them that this will run through the head of a lot of men before engaging in a relationship with a single mom.

The question wasn't asking someone to speak for other men, it was directly towards the men who wouldn't.  So anything he says would be his own opinion NOT for other men.  He sure as hell does NOT speak for me.  I come from a single parent home, if my mother read what he posted she would ream him a new ********.  I found it to be extremely offensive and completely biased.  It pissed me off.  He used stereotypes and stigmas people put on single parent homes, which are a bunch of ******** in my opinion.  There my be a few who match up to what he listed but not most as he implies.  That is one of the most disgusting single minded lists about single mothers I have ever seen.

The original question may have been phrased that way but Kamya clearly qualified his response with the sentence I've quoted above, meaning that he's just talking about what would go through the heads of a lot of men. And those things WOULD go through the thoughts of a lot of men...

---

To clarify, I'm not, in any way, taking it personally.  Think what you want about me, I don't care, whether as a single mother, a female or a person in general.  However, that list that was compiled has very little to do with single mothers and everything to do with low class people and people who aren't in the best shape.  It doesn't even categorize as only female.  And "MOST" single mothers don't fall into those categories.  I would feel this way about it even if I wasn't a single mother because it's simply not true.  

And I don't really think "a lot" of men feel that way about single mothers.  

Kids limit lifestyle choices and options a lot. So much so that there are many people out there that never want kids all together.
Yes, this one is true.  They can and sometimes do limit a lot of things.  When you have kids, you can't just pick and go whenever you want.  You can't do some things because sometimes you don't have a babysitter.  You have another life to care for. 

She wont have much time to spend with you because she's a single mom.
This one can also be true.  She won't have 24/7 to spend with you.  Aside from working, she does have other people she is responsible for, but that doesn't mean you would never see her and I'm sure she could find plenty of time to spend with you, if she wants to. 

You will most likely have to deal with their ex in some way. Drama.
Also true.  Unless the guy is a deadbeat dad and wants nothing to do with his kids, that guy will ALWAYS be part of the mom's life because they do share children.  Whether they see each other or not, he will still be a factor in her life because of the kids. 

You will always be a secondary concern to her.
As you should be when someone has a kid.  Even with my kids' father, my kids came first. 

These points are true, most of the time and I didn't say one word about them because they are.  The stuff that I did mention, I mentioned because they can apply to anyone, male or female, kids or no kids.  And I know more and have heard of more people without kids that fall into those things I mentioned that don't have kids.

---

It's not my personal experience either.
Yet if it has been his personal experience when dealing with single moms, it's not wrong in any way, we are all shaped by our experiences

Of course it's not wrong for him, PERSONALLY, to feel that way, he can feel however he wants.  But that's not what he did.  He based it on what HE thinks other men feel.  Speak for yourself, not your entire gender, especially when it's not true.

---

Except he wasn't speaking for all men, just a lot. And I think it's pretty hard to deny that a lot would have those thoughts...

 

[ladyforsaken]

This is a very sensitive topic to a lot of people because we all know there are amazing single moms out there. I can see it from some of the above posts how passionate you guys are about this because either you work hard as a single mother or your single mom has done so much for you.

But this is a discussion or a question that was asking, why not date one? It's bound to raise some uncommon opinions and thoughts that you don't like to hear but are true to some - that DOES NOT mean that there are no awesome single moms out there.

Everyone's human and everyone makes mistakes. Everyone has they good sides and bad sides. There are also men who work so much to finance the family that they barely have time to spend with their wives or partners or children.

So simply, this isn't a debate on what single moms are or are not, and isn't a debate on the stereotypes that exist today. This was meant to be a question on why some men don't date single mothers.

Of course it's not wrong for him, PERSONALLY, to feel that way, he can feel however he wants.  But that's not what he did.  He based it on what HE thinks other men feel.  Speak for yourself, not your entire gender, especially when it's not true.

I think it's also his right to think the way he did... maybe it was from experience, maybe it was from other men he knew who went through such experiences. I don't see it as him speaking for his entire gender, perhaps listing some of the possible reasons that can be true to some.

Women here can't speak for single mothers either even if we are one cos not all single mothers are the same. My sister is a single mother and she drives me up the wall for the way she handles her finances and how she deals with her children. I've seen the ugly side of it first-hand but I've also seen single mothers who handles everything so well.

Hard for me to stand on any side... I'd rather go with facts and logic and be civil about differing opinions cos I know not everyone is like me.

Peace to all. Now back on topic.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Except he wasn't speaking for all men, just a lot. And I think it's pretty hard to deny that a lot would have those thoughts...

He was speaking for the majority of men, as is how it falls when you say "a lot of men."  Serenia asked for why men who would not date single mothers wouldn't date them, not random guys speaking for "most" men.  And when a guy says they would "hesitate" to date a single mother, that means he doesn't fit the category Serenia asked for to begin with.  I could list of many reason why I don't think men would date single mothers, does that mean I'm allowed to speak for "most men"?

I'm not denying that a lot of men wouldn't date single mothers for a variety of reasons, but I do NOT think that a lot of men think the things I mentioned in my first comments about Kamya's post.

 

[Paraiyar]

Except he wasn't speaking for all men, just a lot. And I think it's pretty hard to deny that a lot would have those thoughts...

He was speaking for the majority of men, as is how it falls when you say "a lot of men."  Serenia asked for why men who would not date single mothers wouldn't date them, not random guys speaking for "most" men.  And when a guy says they would "hesitate" to date a single mother, that means he doesn't fit the category Serenia asked for to begin with.  I could list of many reason why I don't think men would date single mothers, does that mean I'm allowed to speak for "most men"?

I'm not denying that a lot of men wouldn't date single mothers for a variety of reasons, but I do NOT think that a lot of men think the things I mentioned in my first comments about Kamya's post.

To me, 'a lot' could still mean a minority, i.e 20 of the U.S population could qualify as 'a lot' but it's still not the majority.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Except he wasn't speaking for all men, just a lot. And I think it's pretty hard to deny that a lot would have those thoughts...

He was speaking for the majority of men, as is how it falls when you say "a lot of men."  Serenia asked for why men who would not date single mothers wouldn't date them, not random guys speaking for "most" men.  And when a guy says they would "hesitate" to date a single mother, that means he doesn't fit the category Serenia asked for to begin with.  I could list of many reason why I don't think men would date single mothers, does that mean I'm allowed to speak for "most men"?

I'm not denying that a lot of men wouldn't date single mothers for a variety of reasons, but I do NOT think that a lot of men think the things I mentioned in my first comments about Kamya's post.

To me, 'a lot' could still mean a minority, i.e 20 of the U.S population could qualify as 'a lot' but it's still not the majority.

I disagree.  20 out of 320 million wouldn't classify as "a lot,"  IMO.

 

[Paraiyar]

Except he wasn't speaking for all men, just a lot. And I think it's pretty hard to deny that a lot would have those thoughts...

He was speaking for the majority of men, as is how it falls when you say "a lot of men."  Serenia asked for why men who would not date single mothers wouldn't date them, not random guys speaking for "most" men.  And when a guy says they would "hesitate" to date a single mother, that means he doesn't fit the category Serenia asked for to begin with.  I could list of many reason why I don't think men would date single mothers, does that mean I'm allowed to speak for "most men"?

I'm not denying that a lot of men wouldn't date single mothers for a variety of reasons, but I do NOT think that a lot of men think the things I mentioned in my first comments about Kamya's post.

To me, 'a lot' could still mean a minority, i.e 20 of the U.S population could qualify as 'a lot' but it's still not the majority.

I disagree.  20 out of 320 million wouldn't classify as "a lot,"  IMO.

I meant to say 20%. My bad. My point stands though.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Of course it's not wrong for him, PERSONALLY, to feel that way, he can feel however he wants.  But that's not what he did.  He based it on what HE thinks other men feel.  Speak for yourself, not your entire gender, especially when it's not true.

I think it's also his right to think the way he did... maybe it was from experience, maybe it was from other men he knew who went through such experiences. I don't see it as him speaking for his entire gender, perhaps listing some of the possible reasons that can be true to some.

Women here can't speak for single mothers either even if we are one cos not all single mothers are the same. My sister is a single mother and she drives me up the wall for the way she handles her finances and how she deals with her children. I've seen the ugly side of it first-hand but I've also seen single mothers who handles everything so well.

Hard for me to stand on any side... I'd rather go with facts and logic and be civil about differing opinions cos I know not everyone is like me.

Peace to all. Now back on topic.

Yes, and it's my right to disagree and point out how they are false. 

I know many people who don't have children that has not sense of how to form a budget and not blow all their money.  That isn't a single mother thing, it's a "person who doesn't know how to handle finances" thing.  It has nothing to do with children and neither does anything else I commented on in my first comment to Kamya's post.

Sounds like I'm repeating myself now...oh wait, that's because I am.  

---

Except he wasn't speaking for all men, just a lot. And I think it's pretty hard to deny that a lot would have those thoughts...

He was speaking for the majority of men, as is how it falls when you say "a lot of men."  Serenia asked for why men who would not date single mothers wouldn't date them, not random guys speaking for "most" men.  And when a guy says they would "hesitate" to date a single mother, that means he doesn't fit the category Serenia asked for to begin with.  I could list of many reason why I don't think men would date single mothers, does that mean I'm allowed to speak for "most men"?

I'm not denying that a lot of men wouldn't date single mothers for a variety of reasons, but I do NOT think that a lot of men think the things I mentioned in my first comments about Kamya's post.

To me, 'a lot' could still mean a minority, i.e 20 of the U.S population could qualify as 'a lot' but it's still not the majority.

I disagree.  20 out of 320 million wouldn't classify as "a lot,"  IMO.

I meant to say 20%. My bad. My point stands though.

Yes, I would consider 20% to be a lot, but that doesn't change the fact that Serenia wanted REAL answers from men who will NOT date single mothers, not "hypothetical" possible thoughts of "a lot" of guys from a guy would likely would date a single mother, after hesitating to do so.

 

[ardour]

I also come from a single parent household. My mother who couldn't have been further from those characterizations (and was not keen on more relationships anyway).  Not that offended all the same, even though a lot of it was brutal, unfair and could just as easily apply to anyone with a long relationship history.

Maybe  kamya was trying to get across  that men shouldn't be expected to take an altruistic equal opportunity attitude in terms of  dating any more than women are.  The fact that you won't be able to have own children (or are less likely to) with someone who already has them is a valid enough reason not to go there.

 

[ladyforsaken]

I know many people who don't have children that has not sense of how to form a budget and not blow all their money.  That isn't a single mother thing, it's a "person who doesn't know how to handle finances" thing.  It has nothing to do with children and neither does anything else I commented on in my first comment to Kamya's post.

Sounds like I'm repeating myself now...oh wait, that's because I am.  

Just stating my view on kamya's post as well. You need not repeat yourself, but I guess you must anyway.

Anyway, those points in my post were just examples of me trying to make my point clear.... that it goes for every human being to have problems with finances and children etc etc and not just stereotypically single mothers... also pointing out that like anyone else, they can be great at what they do too.

 

[user 115627]

Yes, and it's my right to disagree and point out how they are false. 

I know many people who don't have children that has not sense of how to form a budget and not blow all their money.  That isn't a single mother thing, it's a "person who doesn't know how to handle finances" thing.  It has nothing to do with children and neither does anything else I commented on in my first comment to Kamya's post.

Sounds like I'm repeating myself now...oh wait, that's because I am.  

Are they false if they apply to an even greater portion of the population? I don't remember anybody arguing that they are exclusive to single mothers.

Why is you knowing many people without children and no sense of budgeting a valid counterargument? It doesn't invalidate the possibility of a portion of single mothers being financially irresponsible.

Yes, I would consider 20% to be a lot, but that doesn't change the fact that Serenia wanted REAL answers from men who will NOT date single mothers, not "hypothetical" possible thoughts of "a lot" of guys from a guy would likely would date a single mother, after hesitating to do so.

She wanted guys who don't want to date single mothers to explain it further. These explanations do not have to be limited to their personal preference and could encompass tangents on hypothetical thoughts of other people (actually not just men, could apply to married women as well). Which is actually more helpful, even if they come across as "horribly biased". As negative as they may be, they are at least insightful.

 

[bleed_the_freak]

It may also be important to remember that "forum" is short for the decades-old "discussion forum."

It is intended and should be expected, regardless of a thread's title or a question posed, that discussion will ensue from a variety of viewpoints.

This is why I offered the Devil's Advocate list of why single moms rock!

Discussion.

(and I stand by that list)

 

[EveWasFramed]

I'll just say this and that will my last contribution to this thread most likely.
I agree that there are plenty of single parents who sometimes struggle financially. They're raising a child on one income. In these times, that's very difficult. Often, it's because the noncustodial parent isn't paying support for the child. Though I've been fortunate in that my child's father handles his responsibilities, there are plenty of single parents that struggle financially and are single, due to someone else's poor choices and failure to be responsible.
Kamya's (and a couple of others) responses prove to me that the ugly stereotypes of "single moms" are still alive and well. I know that women like Kamya describes do exist. But, like any kind of bias, prejudice, racism, etc. those who are subjected to it often pay for the sins of others - not their own.
It's a reality of life I guess. One that's disheartening to read on this forum.

---

It may also be important to remember that "forum" is short for the decades-old "discussion forum."

It is intended and should be expected, regardless of a thread's title or a question posed, that discussion will ensue from a variety of viewpoints.

This is why I offered the Devil's Advocate list of why single moms rock!

Discussion.

(and I stand by that list)

<3

 

[user 115627]

Devil's Devil's Advocate:

Single mothers were considered valuable enough by someone to mate with.
→ Or their pregnancy was the product of contraceptive failure, refusal to abort and/or a deliberate lie about being on birth control which led to abandonment from the father's side.

Single mothers have a deeper understanding of the human condition, because they've been both a "child" and a "parent".
→ Or maybe they still are a child and have to rely on their parents and relatives to carry the brunt of responsibility. Also applies to every mother and father.

Single mothers have a better work ethic because they have to work to provide for two.
→ Applies to single fathers as well (who seem to be less likely to be in poverty).

Single mothers have vaginas that work and like sex, clearly.
→ Applies to most women, but also transmen if you intend to go there.

Single mothers are more down to earth, because parenthood is down to earth.
→ Applies to all parents as a general statement, but parenthood doesn't make all people down to earth either...

Single mothers are less likely to be materialistic, because their focus in on "family" and not "things".
→ Or they're the bad kind who pop out kids to collect benefits instead of getting a job because they perceive this as an easier route, doing only the minimum so the kids aren't taken away or once again, have relatives watching out because they care about the kids' wellbeing.

Single mothers are understanding and respectful of men, especially if they have raised or are raising a boy.
→ Or they are terribly resentful of men or the fathers who they have divorced/left/have left them and project all these attitudes onto their male offspring.

Single mothers are less likely to badger you to have kids with them, because they already have kids.
→ I'll give you that possibility. Applies to single fathers as well.

---

Look, people...I'm the first one to state this way of "arguing" is meaningless and petty without statistics or a census and everyone just flinging their personal experiences around while slamming others over the head if they disagree or merely state that stereotypes exist. If you don't utter them, it doesn't erase them from people's heads either so we should rather have them out there and as bleed_the_freak said, discuss them. And no, shaming people for saying these things and calling them horrible and ignorant is not convincing them of the opposite...a lesson we should learn from contemporary politics.

I have no problem acknowledging that good single mothers and deadbeat dads exist. But neither the former nor the latter were part of this discussion.

 

[Lacrecia]

Lol you people

 

[VanillaCreme]

Finances are only one of the many lifestyle limitations that are usually packaged with having a kid or being in a relationship with someone that has a kid.

Not necessarily. Finances entirely depend on the individual. Having kids doesn't exactly mean every penny is drained. So those limitations are variables.

I'm going to agree that Kamya's posts are being taken too personally when it looks to me that all he intended to do was give some of the general reasons why men are often wary of single mothers, I don't think he trying to attack them as a group or especially any individual on this forum.

Yeah, I don't know why it really blew up. As blunt and as harsh as his post was, there were some things to look at in it, which could be applied to begin to explain the initial question asked. I don't think it was to bash single mothers. Someone could have just as easily asked about single fathers.

 

[bleed_the_freak]

Yep, Rodent

...and your exercise there (just as mine was an exercise) was to show how stupid and cruel - and illogical - those prejudices are.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I'm going to agree that Kamya's posts are being taken too personally when it looks to me that all he intended to do was give some of the general reasons why men are often wary of single mothers, I don't think he trying to attack them as a group or especially any individual on this forum.

Yeah, I don't know why it really blew up. As blunt and as harsh as his post was, there were some things to look at in it, which could be applied to begin to explain the initial question asked. I don't think it was to bash single mothers. Someone could have just as easily asked about single fathers.

Could have been said about ANYONE.  Kids have nothing to do with what was said.  That was my point.