Questions for the Men

[MisterLonely]

"I went to a job interview. I didn't get the job but the manager gave me a strong handshake. I did great"

If you never went to a job interview, then taking that step is doing great yes, even if it doesn't result in a job.
If you come in second at the olympic 100 meter sprint, you did great, although you didn't get what you really wanted.

Some things we simply will not succeed at first time we try, should that mean we shouldn't try at all?

 

[Xpendable]

It depends how you tried. I have to win a lot to be able to be in the olympics, but someone like Garret is trying to run the 100 meters with a big rock over his shoulders.

 

[kaetic]

"I went to a job interview. I didn't get the job but the manager gave me a strong handshake. I did great"

Kind of a bad comparison. You get called into an interview, typically you don't just show up, sit down, and start talking about why you're great for the job.

Aside from that, who knows what was going on between them before this happened. Maybe she felt uncomfortable because she knew he had a crush on her and she didn't want to embarrass him, but she didn't want to get his hopes up either. It still doesn't change that he was brave for giving it a shot. You aren't always going to achieve your intended goal when dating/interacting socially and it doesn't mean that anyone failed.

 

[ardour]

The dorky 13 year old kid Garret will probably be unrecognizable in a few years.

 

[Xpendable]

That was like 4 years ago, so who knows.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Bucks lock horns.

Peacocks strut their feathers.

From time immemorial, males have to impress females to get in the panties.

Might as well be mad at Mother Nature.

The difference is that bucks and peacocks don't really have a choice but to act that way. Humans do, yet when they act like that anyway even when they have the capacity to choose a less harsh, less stressful way of life than that, it's disappointing. It doesn't have to be like that anymore, and in fact, the kind of behavior that we had no choice but to adopt as hunter-gatherers, is probably just going to get you jailed or killed today. All it does is add stressors and dangers into your life that are completely avoidable and unnecessary, and reduces all of existence to a dick-measuring contest. I don't think it should be that way. I think there's better things to live for and it's shameful that so many people are stuck in that mindset.

---

Garrett failed, and there is a dance class full of girl that will help him get over this terrible loss.....

If you never went to a job interview, then taking that step is doing great yes, even if it doesn't result in a job.
If you come in second at the olympic 100 meter sprint, you did great, although you didn't get what you really wanted.

Some things we simply will not succeed at first time we try, should that mean we shouldn't try at all?

Not all successes are equal though. You might get other chances to succeed, but they might not be as big of successes as you could have had if you'd played your cards right when it mattered the most. In Garret's mind, that girl may have been the best, so whoever he winds up with, if anyone, might not be as good, so he might still feel like he lost. He might kick himself wishing he'd known what to do when he had his big chance.

 

[Paraiyar]

Bucks lock horns.

Peacocks strut their feathers.

From time immemorial, males have to impress females to get in the panties.

Might as well be mad at Mother Nature.

The difference is that bucks and peacocks don't really have a choice but to act that way.  Humans do, yet when they act like that anyway even when they have the capacity to choose a less harsh, less stressful way of life than that, it's disappointing.  It doesn't have to be like that anymore, and in fact, the kind of behavior that we had no choice but to adopt as hunter-gatherers, is probably just going to get you jailed or killed today.  All it does is add stressors and dangers into your life that are completely avoidable and unnecessary, and reduces all of existence to a dick-measuring contest.  I don't think it should be that way.  I think there's better things to live for and it's shameful that so many people are stuck in that mindset.

---

Garrett failed, and there is a dance class full of girl that will help him get over this terrible loss.....

If you never went to a job interview, then taking that step is doing great yes, even if it doesn't result in a job.
If you come in second at the olympic 100 meter sprint, you did great, although you didn't get what you really wanted.

Some things we simply will not succeed at first time we try, should that mean we shouldn't try at all?

Not all successes are equal though.  You might get other chances to succeed, but they might not be as big of successes as you could have had if you'd played your cards right when it mattered the most.  In Garret's mind, that girl may have been the best, so whoever he winds up with, if anyone, might not be as good, so he might still feel like he lost.  He might kick himself wishing he'd known what to do when he had his big chance.

---

In which case he'd be totally pedestalizing her because there'll be girls everywhere that he's just as attracted to, especially since he lives in a country of more than 300 million people.

 

[TheSkaFish]

In which case he'd be totally pedestalizing her because there'll be girls everywhere that he's just as attracted to, especially since he lives in a country of more than 300 million people.

Maybe, maybe not.  And if a below-average looks man can attract an above-average looks woman, then maybe his looks weren't the problem.  Maybe it was something he could have changed, like not having such a timid personality.  That would be good for him anyway.

I really don't get the concept of pedestalizing though.  If you like anyone, you are pedestalizing them by default by being more attracted to them than you are to others.  It seems like the "correct" way to date that is getting pushed so much, is that you're just supposed to go for someone at random, or only date people you don't really want so that you can be the one who cares the least, and have more power in the relationship.  Personally I don't want to have to live like that. I don't want to have to just settle for whoever will have me, cause whoever that is probably won't be anyone I want. Somebody gets to enjoy the experience of dating the one they actually want instead of someone they settle for. That's the experience I'm after.

 

[ardour]

Emotional attachment in men is considered unattractive/not masculine. That’s where the ‘don’t pedestalize’ thing comes from. You’re supposed to have a stoic “who cares if she doesn’t like me, onto the next one” type of attitude.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Emotional attachment in men is considered unattractive/not masculine. That’s where the ‘don’t pedestalize’ thing comes from. You’re supposed to have a stoic “who cares if she doesn’t like me, onto the next one” type of attitude.

Yeah, that's something I never understood myself.  It goes along with that Psychology Today article I shared in here, about how attractive male behavior is "fast life" behavior, and one of the traits of the fast life is insecure attachment, which means not being strongly attached to anything.  This came about because in hunter-gatherer times, life was harsh and unpredictable.  Even today, people from harsh places act that way for the same reasons.  It's part of the whole "desperado" act that I thought was stupid and just don't see the reason for, because either the guys who do that are lying to others and themselves about having no preference, or just that I always found that whole attitude to be corny. "Look at me, look how much I don't care about anything...except looking like I don't care about anything."

I think it's sad that people, as a whole, are like this.

 

[Xpendable]

I guess we were nicer to him than here:

 

[Paraiyar]

In which case he'd be totally pedestalizing her because there'll be girls everywhere that he's just as attracted to, especially since he lives in a country of more than 300 million people.

Maybe, maybe not.  And if a below-average looks man can attract an above-average looks woman, then maybe his looks weren't the problem.  Maybe it was something he could have changed, like not having such a timid personality.  That would be good for him anyway.

I really don't get the concept of pedestalizing though.  If you like anyone, you are pedestalizing them by default by being more attracted to them than you are to others.  It seems like the "correct" way to date that is getting pushed so much, is that you're just supposed to go for someone at random, or only date people you don't really want so that you can be the one who cares the least, and have more power in the relationship.  Personally I don't want to have to live like that. I don't want to have to just settle for whoever will have me, cause whoever that is probably won't be anyone I want. Somebody gets to enjoy the experience of dating the one they actually want instead of someone they settle for. That's the experience I'm after.

Emotional attachment in men is considered unattractive/not masculine. That’s where the ‘don’t pedestalize’ thing comes from. You’re supposed to have a stoic “who cares if she doesn’t like me, onto the next one” type of attitude.

To me it's more of a pragmatic outlook that if you waste all your time on one person who isn't interested then you squander whatever other opportunities you might get in that time. I don't see it as pedestalizing if you like someone, get rejected and feel bad for a little while and then move on.

 

[ardour]

Emotional attachment in men is considered unattractive/not masculine. That’s where the ‘don’t pedestalize’ thing comes from. You’re supposed to have a stoic “who cares if she doesn’t like me, onto the next one” type of attitude.

To me it's more of a pragmatic outlook that if you waste all your time on one person who isn't interested then you squander whatever other opportunities you might get in that time. I don't see it as pedestalizing if you like someone, get rejected and feel bad for a little while and then move on.

You're expected to go through that over and over again just to be considered trying. By the time you find someone who reciprocates you'll be emotionally numb and it will barely matter. Maybe you'll be considered more attractive then, but for people like me at least there isn't much of an upside. We get what we want only by killing our desire for it.

 

[Paraiyar]

Emotional attachment in men is considered unattractive/not masculine. That’s where the ‘don’t pedestalize’ thing comes from. You’re supposed to have a stoic “who cares if she doesn’t like me, onto the next one” type of attitude.

To me it's more of a pragmatic outlook that if you waste all your time on one person who isn't interested then you squander whatever other opportunities you might get in that time. I don't see it as pedestalizing if you like someone, get rejected and feel bad for a little while and then move on.

You're expected to go through that over and over again just to be considered trying. By the time you find someone who reciprocates you'll be emotionally numb and it will barely matter. Maybe you'll be considered more attractive then, but for me and people like me at least there isn't much of an upside. We get what we want only by killing our desire for it.

I've got friends on anxiety meds who have managed to get really nice girlfriends, I think you blowing the stoicism thing a bit out of proportion.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I think this thread has turned into "who can I blame other than myself" and "look at how horrible I am." Don't you think this may be part of the problem?

 

[user 115627]

You're expected to go through that over and over again just to be considered trying. By the time you find someone who reciprocates you'll be emotionally numb and it will barely matter. Maybe you'll be considered more attractive then, but for me and people like me at least there isn't much of an upside. We get what we want only by killing our desire for it.

I've got friends on anxiety meds who have managed to get really nice girlfriends, I think you blowing the stoicism thing a bit out of proportion.

That's a bit of a non-sequitur. Even if anxiety makes the approaching much more difficult and you treat it with meds, that wouldn't prevent the possibility of this cycle from occurring. It wouldn't keep you from conceptualizing it as a routine in your head at some point. The fact aside that anxiety could only be one of your obstacles. How many potential partners/interesting people can one actively approach before "looking for someone special" loses its meaning? You might as well let a RNG do the picking for you then. The bottom line is always "You're just supposed to try until it works".

I think this thread has turned into "who can I blame other than myself" and "look at how horrible I am."  Don't you think this may be part of the problem?

Yes. Tell them to blame themselves/take responsibility and to say the following words into the mirror everyday "I am not horrible".

I am being half-sarcastic. But that is what conjuring up confidence can translate into for the people that don't have any to begin with. Fake it until you make it. You can also tell them to write down a list of their positive qualities - no matter how short it is - and a list of flaws they'd like to work on. And then you hope it works and that they don't come back while they're busy trying...and trying...and trying. We have no guarantees to offer except for that aforementioned cycle.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Of course it might not work, but staying on the same exact path they've been on isn't going to work, so why not try something else. Hell, if only to prove people like me wrong. lol Blaming others and making excuses and being negative as fresia is not going to get anyone anywhere, unless you want to attract people who blame others, make excuses and are negative as fresia.
Preaching the same thing for years on end clearly isn't working, so it's clearly time to try something else. That's all I'm saying

 

[Xpendable]

Anecdotal evidence seems to never die.

 

[Paraiyar]

You're expected to go through that over and over again just to be considered trying. By the time you find someone who reciprocates you'll be emotionally numb and it will barely matter. Maybe you'll be considered more attractive then, but for me and people like me at least there isn't much of an upside. We get what we want only by killing our desire for it.

I've got friends on anxiety meds who have managed to get really nice girlfriends, I think you blowing the stoicism thing a bit out of proportion.

That's a bit of a non-sequitur. Even if anxiety makes the approaching much more difficult and you treat it with meds, that wouldn't prevent the possibility of this cycle from occurring. It wouldn't keep you from conceptualizing it as a routine in your head at some point. The fact aside that anxiety could only be one of your obstacles. How many potential partners/interesting people can one actively approach before "looking for someone special" loses its meaning? You might as well let a RNG do the picking for you then. The bottom line is always "You're just supposed to try until it works".

I think this thread has turned into "who can I blame other than myself" and "look at how horrible I am."  Don't you think this may be part of the problem?

Yes. Tell them to blame themselves/take responsibility and to say the following words into the mirror everyday "I am not horrible".

I am being half-sarcastic. But that is what conjuring up confidence can translate into for the people that don't have any to begin with. Fake it until you make it. You can also tell them to write down a list of their positive qualities - no matter how short it is - and a list of flaws they'd like to work on. And then you hope it works and that they don't come back while they're busy trying...and trying...and trying. We have no guarantees to offer except for that aforementioned cycle.

 
My point was that it kind of looks to me like Ardour thinks that stoicism is an inherent must at all times and I think maybe that isn't 100% the case.

Anecdotal evidence seems to never die.

It's kind of hard to get peer reviewed evidence for a lof of the stuff we're talking about.

 

[Xpendable]

The girl even has a IMDB page and was in some tv shows. Garrett had no chance.