Releasing My Insecurities

[TheSkaFish]

Please don't take what I'm about to say as a personal attack because it isn't meant to be: Nilla may have been a little overly brash in what she said but on reading this paragraph, I can't help but think she has a point. You are approaching some central aspects of life with the wrong attitude. It kind of comes across like you have so much you want from life but you aren't willing to make any of the bare minimum sacrifices to have a chance of achieving it.

No, it's okay. It's not so much that I'm afraid of doing the work, it's that I've seen a lot of people work hard and get nowhere anyway, and all indications seem that they will continue getting nowhere indefinitely, maybe even for the rest of their lives. That's what I'm afraid of.

You say that you hate the idea of working under someone else but do you have an area that you are skilled enough to become self-employed in?

Yeah that's another tough question. I don't know what I'd even do. If I have to learn something hard I'd like it to be creative things like the stuff that excites me. It's hard for me to get into business-type, left-brain things.

We tend to be our own worst enemies and it kind of sounds like you're just shooting yourself in the foot by being so inflexible in your attitude towards working under someone else, something a lot of people don't want to do but realize that they aren't exempt from.

And I'm not saying any of this to upset you, it's just my thoughts on the matter.

Well, I don't think I'm exempt from it and I'm not so inflexible that I wouldn't work for anyone else at all. I guess I'm probably at least a little jaded by the lousy experiences I've had. I'm not saying that I refuse to work until someone pays me six figures. I just want to know, OK, I'm not hopeless. I just want to do something that confirms I am at least average, because then who knows, maybe I could be more? That's all I meant by it.

 

[Paraiyar]

I know people here are often hesitant to raise their hands and pour their hearts out about their lives for fear of being mocked or abused. So I applaud you, SkaFish, for posting honestly about yourself.

Thanks. I have to say I'm disappointed in the way all this turned out though. I was reading a few articles lately about bullying and social ostracizing in a person's early years and how it can have long-term effects on a person's confidence, self-image, and self-esteem and it just made me think that maybe that's what happened to me, maybe that's why I have these feelings of being not good enough. I know that I struggle with those things I mentioned. I thought I was okay because I was no longer that bothered about the specific events, but I thought it made me see myself in a way that set me up to make mistakes later in life. Like, I might have been over the specific bullying, but how I was treated in childhood and adolescence subconsciously conditioned me to see myself as "less than" and it was causing me to not believe in my ability to get a good job so I'm not trying hard enough, not work on my interests because I believe I just can't be good enough, and fearing that I'm not good enough for the girls I liked so I went into talking to them as insecure instead of my best self.

The articles said that talking about the bullying, exclusion, and whatever else that caused the low self-esteem and confidence could help me heal from it and free myself of the feelings of inferiority, and that's what I was trying to do. I never meant for this to turn into an argument that would result in bans and hurtful things being said to everybody.

I get that insecurities can derail you from doing the things you want, I've had the same issue. I've sort of started to fix it though. I think the simple truth is that you have to force yourself to stop shying away from the doing the things that trigger your insecurities, almost like forcing yourself to walk into an ice cold shower. I realize this could sound like unhelpful advice kind of akin to saying "just do it" but I don't know what other advice to give. I do think that the more you go out of your comfort zone, the easier it gets though.

 

[Paraiyar]

No, it's okay. It's not so much that I'm afraid of doing the work, it's that I've seen a lot of people work hard and get nowhere anyway, and all indications seem that they will continue getting nowhere indefinitely, maybe even for the rest of their lives. That's what I'm afraid of.

True but how many people do you see who don't work hard and end up obtaining success because of it? We can't predict the future with any real certainty, we can only do our best to work towards what we want in life.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I have no idea what is going on in this thread but this caught my eye. If you feel this way you are working for the wrong person. I've been on both sides of the coins, worked for someone, ran a business, been manager, and I much rather work for someone than run a business. If you can't deal with or manage stress you can't effectively run a business there is too much stress in doing so. It takes a lot emotionally, mentally, and physically.

I'm aware that running a business is a lot of stress, definitely. I used to think I wanted to own my own business and work for myself but I'm not so sure anymore, because it would take time away from getting good at my interests. I might change my mind back again later, but I think for now I wouldn't mind working for someone else as long as it isn't too bad, so I can make some progress on my own projects.

I've worked for someone who treated their employees like **** and their own personal property and enjoyed manipulating people. I've worked for someone who was a bully and thought you lead through intimidation and yelling at your employees. I now work for someone who doesn't do any of those things, we all get along very well. Not everyday is perfect and some are stressful but there are more laughs and fun than negatives. You can work for someone and not feel as what you've mentioned above.

My first boss was actually very nice, but it was a first job and not something you could do and be an independent adult. My second and third bosses were the negative, aggressive kind you described. And my last job was just....a trained monkey could have done it. I wasn't growing at all and it was making me feel low. It was the kind of place that has a reputation as a place you work at if you're not too bright or if you're a druggie burnout. There were people at the place who had really seemed to have struck out in life. It was just temporary but it was still a blow to my confidence.

 

[TheSkaFish]

True but how many people do you see who don't work hard and end up obtaining success because of it? We can't predict the future with any real certainty, we can only do our best to work towards what we want in life.

Eh...quite a few actually. I've seen people just luck into things, jobs/money, relationships, etc., getting these things because of dumb luck and/or their social status versus hard, smart work.

I've also seen lots of people work hard but it doesn't seem to make any difference. My co-workers in all the bad jobs I've had worked hard, but it didn't seem to help. It reinforced my belief that they were simply people of low ability who just weren't going to get anything no matter what they did. Because of this, from an early age I have developed a belief that people's abilities are more or less fixed and that practice or hard work only helps naturally talented people, and a cynical attitude about things like hard work and a positive attitude, viewing these things as empty platitudes or opiates for the untalented and unlucky. As a result, I haven't worked hard at things like getting skills, my interests, or becoming more attractive, figuring that because there aren't a lot of high performers and because I never felt that anything was easy for me, odds are I was mediocre. It was my long-standing belief that you're either born with it or you're screwed.

As I've looked at my life to try to find the problem areas, I feel like this has been an ineffective strategy. I feel like, this hasn't been working so I owe it to myself to try something else. Plus I don't like being negative and cynical, it doesn't inspire confidence and it doesn't make me happy.

You are probably right about it being all we can do to work hard for what we want in life. But I still have a lot of mental resistance, which I feel is mental baggage from my self-image growing up. I fear I lack the natural ability necessary to do the work, because it's not just hard work that counts but smart work and I fear I'm not smart enough.

I really do want to get rid of this cynical attitude about hard work, the fixed mindset, and the fear of being not smart/good enough.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Perhaps try to come up with a unique medium term goal and try to achieve it. For me it seems that once I started accomplishing my first few goals, and getting that really good feeling from it, the momentum just kind of carried me and it always keeps me going and pushing myself onto the next thing.

You just need to get started to build the momentum. It doesn't have to be something huge. Just something mediumly difficult yet achievable that you can work towards.

This sounds like a good idea actually. I did some thinking after seeing this post and realized that I am intimidated by my goals, because they are mostly BIG. It intimidates me into taking no action. On the other hand I can definitely see how a person can build confidence by racking up a streak of small or medium-sized or term goals - the good feeling you described. I know it would help my confidence, self-esteem, self-image, and all the rest to do things successfully, to build up some wins, to see myself starting to get better at things.

Thanks for this suggestion and I'll at least give this a shot. It's better than what I'd been doing.

 

[Paraiyar]

True but how many people do you see who don't work hard and end up obtaining success because of it? We can't predict the future with any real certainty, we can only do our best to work towards what we want in life.

Eh...quite a few actually. I've seen people just luck into things, jobs/money, relationships, etc., getting these things because of dumb luck and/or their social status versus hard, smart work.

I've also seen lots of people work hard but it doesn't seem to make any difference. My co-workers in all the bad jobs I've had worked hard, but it didn't seem to help. It reinforced my belief that they were simply people of low ability who just weren't going to get anything no matter what they did. Because of this, from an early age I have developed a belief that people's abilities are more or less fixed and that practice or hard work only helps naturally talented people, and a cynical attitude about things like hard work and a positive attitude, viewing these things as empty platitudes or opiates for the untalented and unlucky. As a result, I haven't worked hard at things like getting skills, my interests, or becoming more attractive, figuring that because there aren't a lot of high performers and because I never felt that anything was easy for me, odds are I was mediocre. It was my long-standing belief that you're either born with it or you're screwed.

As I've looked at my life to try to find the problem areas, I feel like this has been an ineffective strategy. I feel like, this hasn't been working so I owe it to myself to try something else. Plus I don't like being negative and cynical, it doesn't inspire confidence and it doesn't make me happy.

You are probably right about it being all we can do to work hard for what we want in life. But I still have a lot of mental resistance, which I feel is mental baggage from my self-image growing up. I fear I lack the natural ability necessary to do the work, because it's not just hard work that counts but smart work and I fear I'm not smart enough.

I really do want to get rid of this cynical attitude about hard work, the fixed mindset, and the fear of being not smart/good enough.

Do you really think they just lucked into those things? I don't. Chances are we just don't see the actual work they put in. It should pretty much go without saying that I'm not talking about people who are born into success here. That's a different thing altogether. I don't think people generally luck into relationships either, they are probably doing something differently to you or maybe they just have qualities and interests that make it easier to find partners.

The other thing is that some people (a lot in government departments for example) know how to represent themselves as being worthy of a position that they certainly aren't. But none of that is down to luck, it's down to them knowing how to network and take credit for the work of others and to shift the blame when things go wrong. I just don't believe that this is a random process at all.

 

[Xpendable]

Is not luck, it's randomness.

 

[Paraiyar]

Do you really think randomness is the reason you can't find the partner you want or get into a desirable career? I can accept that misfortune can prevent someone from attaining something they otherwise might be able to but I don't accept that people are able to get those things simply down to randomness.

 

[Xpendable]

I recomend a book called Drunkard's Walk to understand randomness.

 

[SofiasMami]

I recomend a book called Drunkard's Walk to understand randomness.

I read it a few years ago. It's a good book. Many people prefer to believe though that they are mostly in control of their lives or that there is a god in in control.
As long as we're talking about books, I'll mention Malcolm Gladwell - he writes that successful people typically have to work at least 10,000 hours before they're experts at their game. I think he used the Beatles as an example - it's easy to think that they just dropped themselves around 1963 into successful careers but no - they played many long hours (probably 10,000!) in German and English clubs before becoming famous.
Paraiyar has some good points - if you're interested in a certain type of work or career - you have to start somewhere. Luck plays a profound role in everyone's lives but don't quit before you start. Go to school and get an education if you can. It doesn't have to be a frilly 4-year college degree, there are many vocational schools that will teach exactly what you need...to be lucky

-Teresa

 

[Aisha]

^Good advice. I'd recommend Malcolm Gladwell's 'Outliers' too. It gives one things to muse on. And the more you work towards your goals the luckier you should be, because after all you can't be in the right place at the right time if you didn't have the initiative to leave where you were to begin with and go towards where it is you want to be. People who fall into luck aren't always so lucky, whereas people who earn their luck actually have the know-how and the experience to gain the full benefit of it.

 

[Paraiyar]

^Good advice. I'd recommend Malcolm Gladwell's 'Outliers' too. It gives one things to muse on. And the more you work towards your goals the luckier you should be, because after all you can't be in the right place at the right time if you didn't have the initiative to leave where you were to begin with and go towards where it is you want to be. People who fall into luck aren't always so lucky, whereas people who earn their luck actually have the know-how and the experience to gain the full benefit of it.

You really summed up what I was trying to say better than I had. Sure, a lot of these things are a matter of being in the right place in the right time but ensuring that you're allowing the opportunity for that to actually happen is up to you and so is knowing what to do when the time does come.

 

[Xpendable]

As long as we're talking about books, I'll mention Malcolm Gladwell - he writes that successful people typically have to work at least 10,000 hours before they're experts at their game. I think he used the Beatles as an example - it's easy to think that they just dropped themselves around 1963 into successful careers but no - they played many long hours (probably 10,000!) in German and English clubs before becoming famous.

https://allaboutwork.org/2012/11/21/malcolm-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-doesnt-add-up/

My point isn't that hard work doesn't give you better chances for success, but how hard work doesn't put the universe in order for you to achieve it. It's like saying I can win the lottery if I buy a ticket every day. But we know most winner didn't do that; they just buyed the right ticket.
What if John and Paul never meet? or if someone like Chuck Berry never played guitar and influenced Lenon? What if Bill Gates had lived in a different place and never had access to a computer?
None of those variables had to do with their dedication but with pure circunstances. There was probably many bands and many kids with programing skills, and many people who work as hard as those you mentioned but didn't had that little quote of randomness that put all together. Without mention inherent talent and historical context.

 

[Paraiyar]

https://allaboutwork.org/2012/11/21/malcolm-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-doesnt-add-up/

My point isn't that hard work doesn't give you better chances for success, but how hard work doesn't put the universe in order for you to achieve it. It's like saying I can win the lottery if I buy a ticket every day. But we know most winner didn't do that; they just buyed the right ticket.

No one is saying that hard work guarantees success either so that analogy doesn't work. Also, the chances of hard work giving you some degree of success is much higher than winning the lottery if you buy a ticket everyday.

None of those variables had to do with their dedication but with pure circunstances. There was probably many bands and many kids with programing skills, and many people who work as hard as those you mentioned but didn't had that little quote of randomness that put all together. Without mention inherent talent and historical context.

This is overlooking the fact that both John Lennon and Paul McCartney probably put huge amounts of time into networking in order to be able to find each other. So even here, you can still influence the outcome through dedication. Same goes for the programmers that succeeded, I'm willing to bet they did a huge amount of networking in order to do so, probably more than other programmers that had the same ability.

The existence of this type of randomness is not something you need to read a book to understand (it should be obvious to anyone without one) but what exactly is the argument here? My entire point is that the mentality that SkaFish seems to have taken on (at least in the past) is that it isn't worth giving it your all since you can't exert total control over the outcome of your life which to me is absurd since it actually pretty much guarantees that you won't get what you want. Imagine if John or Paul had given up playing music before they met each other because of this?

It just seems to me that letting that element of randomness weaken or destroy your resolve is the most pointless and self destructive thing you can do and it doesn't seem to have brought SkaFish what he wants out of life.

 

[Xpendable]

https://allaboutwork.org/2012/11/21/malcolm-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-doesnt-add-up/

My point isn't that hard work doesn't give you better chances for success, but how hard work doesn't put the universe in order for you to achieve it. It's like saying I can win the lottery if I buy a ticket every day. But we know most winner didn't do that; they just buyed the right ticket.
What if John and Paul never meet? or if someone like Chuck Berry never played guitar and influenced Lenon? What if Bill Gates had lived in a different place and never had access to a computer?
None of those variables had to do with their dedication but with pure circunstances. There was probably many bands and many kids with programing skills, and many people who work as hard as those you mentioned but didn't had that little quote of randomness that put all together. Without mention inherent talent and historical context.

Except that the chances of hard work putting you in something of a better position are far higher than the chances of you winning the lottery if you buy a ticket so that analogy seems a little too extreme to me.

None of those variables had to do with their dedication but with pure circunstances. There was probably many bands and many kids with programing skills, and many people who work as hard as those you mentioned but didn't had that little quote of randomness that put all together. Without mention inherent talent and historical context.

This is overlooking the fact that both John Lennon and Paul McCartney probably put huge amounts of time into networking in order to be able to find each other. So even here, you can still influence the outcome through dedication. Same goes for the programmers that succeeded, I'm willing to bet they did a huge amount of networking in order to do so, probably more than other programmers that had the same ability.

The existence of this type of randomness is not something you need to read a book to understand (it should be obvious to anyone without one) but what exactly is the argument here? My entire point is that the mentality that SkaFish seems to have taken on (at least in the past) is that it isn't worth giving it your all since you can't exert total control over the outcome of your life which to me is absurd since it actually pretty much guarantees that you won't get what you want. Imagine if John or Paul had given up playing music before they met each other because of this?

It just seems to me that letting that element of randomness weaken or destroy your resolve is the most pointless and self destructive thing you can do and it doesn't seem to have brought SkaFish what he wants out of life.

Ok, let me put it this way: What If England was never formed as a country and Liverpool never existed? How could the Beatles get together?

 

[Paraiyar]

https://allaboutwork.org/2012/11/21/malcolm-gladwells-10000-hour-rule-doesnt-add-up/

My point isn't that hard work doesn't give you better chances for success, but how hard work doesn't put the universe in order for you to achieve it. It's like saying I can win the lottery if I buy a ticket every day. But we know most winner didn't do that; they just buyed the right ticket.
What if John and Paul never meet? or if someone like Chuck Berry never played guitar and influenced Lenon? What if Bill Gates had lived in a different place and never had access to a computer?
None of those variables had to do with their dedication but with pure circunstances. There was probably many bands and many kids with programing skills, and many people who work as hard as those you mentioned but didn't had that little quote of randomness that put all together. Without mention inherent talent and historical context.

Except that the chances of hard work putting you in something of a better position are far higher than the chances of you winning the lottery if you buy a ticket so that analogy seems a little too extreme to me.

None of those variables had to do with their dedication but with pure circunstances. There was probably many bands and many kids with programing skills, and many people who work as hard as those you mentioned but didn't had that little quote of randomness that put all together. Without mention inherent talent and historical context.

This is overlooking the fact that both John Lennon and Paul McCartney probably put huge amounts of time into networking in order to be able to find each other. So even here, you can still influence the outcome through dedication. Same goes for the programmers that succeeded, I'm willing to bet they did a huge amount of networking in order to do so, probably more than other programmers that had the same ability.

The existence of this type of randomness is not something you need to read a book to understand (it should be obvious to anyone without one) but what exactly is the argument here? My entire point is that the mentality that SkaFish seems to have taken on (at least in the past) is that it isn't worth giving it your all since you can't exert total control over the outcome of your life which to me is absurd since it actually pretty much guarantees that you won't get what you want. Imagine if John or Paul had given up playing music before they met each other because of this?

It just seems to me that letting that element of randomness weaken or destroy your resolve is the most pointless and self destructive thing you can do and it doesn't seem to have brought SkaFish what he wants out of life.

Ok, let me put it this way: What If England was never formed as a country and Liverpool never existed? How could the Beatles get together?

What is your point? No one is denying that randomness exists. I'm saying that it shouldn't stop you from trying to make the most of your situation.

 

[Xpendable]

What is your point? No one is denying that randomness exists. I'm saying that it shouldn't stop you from trying to make the most of your situation.

But you're denying that randomness acts in parallel with our efforts to path a line in our destiny. Randomness doesn't allow us to try to make the most, sometimes it just acts agains us from every angle.

 

[Paraiyar]

What is your point? No one is denying that randomness exists.

But you're denying that randomness acts in parallel with our efforts to path a line in our destiny.

Where did I do that?

 

[Xpendable]

What is your point? No one is denying that randomness exists.

But you're denying that randomness acts in parallel with our efforts to path a line in our destiny.

Where did I do that?

"It just seems to me that letting that element of randomness weaken or destroy your resolve is the most pointless and self destructive thing you can do and it doesn't seem to have brought SkaFish what he wants out of life."