Why Dating Sucks for Average Guys

[mgill]

Sit in a busy neighborhood and do some people watching, you'll find a lot of proof of average and even ugly people in relationships.

hardly an accurate picture of reality.  unless you can contrast them with the number average & below average men who are unable to experience a relationship such an observation is meaningless.

 

[ardour]

I don't think the argument was that it's impossible for ugly men to get into relationships, but that the onus is entirely on men.

Which seems even more daunting with societal changes: young people still living at home well into their twenties, women's illusion of endless choices online, #metoo neuroses. 55% of men at university are now involuntarily celibate by defintion 

 

[TheSkaFish]

I disagree. Individually we are responsible but it's not hard to see why many of us fall into pathetic "simp" behaviour. If this youtuber had semi-regular interest from women he wouldn't have been hovering around his friend for years. He'd likely have more positive likeable outlook as well.

It's unlikely he would have got hung up on his friend had he gone through life receiving validating attention from the opposite ***.

lol, that's cute that you think that, but it would be false.  You can't help who you fall for sometimes.  I 100% do think men and women can be only friends, but that doesn't always stop one or both from thinking there could be something more.  I've developed feelings for a friend in the past and I've had friends develop feelings for me.  That has NOTHING to do with how much validation you received from the opposite ***.

He did mention not making a move on her at all. It's possible she had no idea of his attraction and things could've worked out very differently if he actually tried. The attractiveness thing is so difficult to generalize, depends on their age as well, I doubt that a woman in her 40's would care that much about a balding man, for instance. (Edit: Not trying to say that beauty standards don't exist, but if only the most attractive people managed to get into relationships we wouldn't have a population problem. The majority of the population is just average)
I know it's easy to say that all guys are jerks, I hate that type of commentary, but it seems like this person was luring her in to change according to her specifications of what a proper man should be. That's very manipulative and shows lack of morality and backbone. I'm not saying this particular girl wanted a deep connection, but if one does it's very clear that this type of men would not suit one's needs.
Other than that, all I can say is that there's nothing wrong with going for people just because you're physically attracted to them, men do it all the time, so I don't see the problem in her actions other than what he expected to get from her. My overall opinion is that dating sucks, it's all physicality and flirtation with no depth.

-The guy never took a test but decided that he is above average and around 120IQ, which doesn't mean much but was absolutely hilarious.

Ah yes, all the average guys who only fetishize me and sleep with me only to feel incredibly guilty the next day. All the average guys who are eager to **** me so they can say they ****** a trans girl for progressive clout. All the average guys who want to take me out to "somewhere quiet and small" because deep down they'd be embarrassed to be seen in public with me. "Sorry, I was just exploring myself." "Sorry, I'm not ready to be monogamous yet." "You were fun but I'm looking to start a family some day." Yeah, so rough for these dudes.

What was the point of posting this? What point are you trying to make? That your experiences dating as a trans person somehow invalidate the OPs experience as an average dude?

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I disagree. Individually we are responsible but it's not hard to see why many of us fall into pathetic "simp" behaviour. If this youtuber had semi-regular interest from women he wouldn't have been hovering around his friend for years. He'd likely have more positive likeable outlook as well.

Yep, I agree. If you do well in an area from the get go then you will be more confident in that area and not have this type of scarcity mindset about it. I'm not saying it isn't possible to change things a lot of the time but agree about what creates the mentality.

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This site is 90% the same three dudes posting the same three topics and recycling the same three talking points. As far as I can tell, it's been this way for YEARS. They're the only threads that get any traction lmao.

Just rename the site to aMGTOWlife.com at this point.

i think most people have missed the point of this video.  the fact that the women in question decided to pursue Jason based on a single photo while Bella made it perfectly clear that she was only interested in WW as a friend despite her deep connection with him shows that female attraction is all about looks and without a certain baseline of facial attractiveness & height personality is not even a factor and invariably only leads to being friendzoned.

it is also important to realize that WW's story about Bella & Jason is only when he became aware of why he had been failing with women despite being & doing what he had always been told was nessassary for success.  all of his previous failures with women then made perfect sense-he is simply not physically attractive enough for the women he is interested in.  he is also 5'10 and has good hair so as bad as it may be for the average male, things are exponentially worse for a 5'6 bald male like myself.

btw, going MGTOW is a choice  by made by men who have options but choose to not pursue them-a far more accurate acronym would be MSTOW or Men Sent Their Own Way-i.e. FA (Forever Alone) and TFL (True Forced Loneliness).

 

[LostintheBardo]

This site is 90% the same three dudes posting the same three topics and recycling the same three talking points. As far as I can tell, it's been this way for YEARS. They're the only threads that get any traction lmao.

Just rename the site to aMGTOWlife.com at this point.

If so many dudes are posting the same thing then maybe it is a reflection of the fact it is quite a common issue?

 

[TheSkaFish]

If so many dudes are posting the same thing then maybe it is a reflection of the fact it is quite a common issue?

^this.

It is a loneliness support forum after all, and problems with attraction are a major source of loneliness. Most people can't just flip a switch and say, "well, I guess I'm just not good enough, guess I'm going to have to learn to just settle for being single for life." People aren't machines. Most of us have some desire for some kind of sexual/romantic connection, in my opinion it's a fundamental experience of being alive in a way that, say, being a celebrity is not. Most people can say, "I'm not going to be a celebrity, oh well" but it's a lot harder to say, "I'm not going to get to experience a romantic relationship, oh well."

Then you have to deal with other people, society, and the media rubbing *** and relationships in our face all the time. It sells, and it sells because it's a fundamental, deep-level desire that people relate to.

And things are made even worse with advice like "be yourself", which keeps people continuing to be what doesn't work because they take it at face value. Then you get blamed for "being yourself", but if that's all you hear, then how were you supposed to know any differently?

Also, and I think this applies to the whole thread and a lot of other things in general:

one person or group's struggle, doesn't invalidate another's. It's something I think we should all remember to keep in mind.

 

[ardour]

This site is 90% the same three dudes posting the same three topics and recycling the same three talking points. As far as I can tell, it's been this way for YEARS. They're the only threads that get any traction lmao.

Just rename the site to aMGTOWlife.com at this point.

If so many dudes are posting the same thing then maybe it is a reflection of the fact it is quite a common issue?

That or entitlement.  

 

[TheSkaFish]

That or entitlement.  

"Entitled" is almost like "Hitler" these days. A go-to invalidation buzzword. Left or right wing, it doesn't matter - I've seen both sides use it against the other so much it's become almost meaningless.

"Anyone I don't like is entitled."

"Anyone I disagree with is Hitler."

 

[mgill]

This site is 90% the same three dudes posting the same three topics and recycling the same three talking points. As far as I can tell, it's been this way for YEARS. They're the only threads that get any traction lmao.

Just rename the site to aMGTOWlife.com at this point.

If so many dudes are posting the same thing then maybe it is a reflection of the fact it is quite a common issue?

there is no doubt that the past 5-10 years are by far the worst period in history to be an average or below average male-all due in large part to cell phone's, OLD & social media.

 

[lnlflwr]

I don't think the argument was that it's impossible for ugly men to get into relationships, but that the onus is entirely on men.

Which seems even more daunting with  societal changes:  young people still living at home well into their twenties, women's illusion of endless choices online, #metoo neuroses. 55% of men at university are now involuntarily celibate by defintion 

It's never going to be entirely on men and the endless choices online are also there for you guys. The rate of male incels is rising at a similar level that female discontent is rising, the latter has been steadily rising for several decades now. We suffer from similar issues when it comes to physical attractiveness, for instance, and also from very distinctive issues like not experiencing relationships for men and harassment/sexual assault for women (of course anyone can experience either, those are not exclusively gendered issues).
It just concerns me that the lack of experience creates this type of dichotomy in males, who clearly still feel the need to be loved but can't even accept the possibility of it happening because of how much they put themselves down in the process, and project this hopelessness idea onto their peers. 

The guy in the video had the mildest experience I've ever seen to assert his 'blackpillness', just a girl who wasn't attracted to him the way he wanted. If this person can't accept this, I wonder how they'd behave in a relationship when their girl tells him that something is bothering her. It'd be a blood bath of immaturity and narcissistic manipulation.

 

[lnlflwr]

Sit in a busy neighborhood and do some people watching, you'll find a lot of proof of average and even ugly people in relationships.

hardly an accurate picture of reality.  unless you can contrast them with the number average & below average men who are unable to experience a relationship such an observation is meaningless.

That was the whole point of the video you posted. The generalization that women are shallow and there's nothing a below average guy can do to change their inevitable faith of being explored by women for attention but never be taken seriously for a relationship. If below average guys are able to get into relationships, that should be more than enough to disprove the idea that there's nothing anyone can do about it "because they just got dealt a bad hand".
I understand that it's a generalization and not a rule, or I hope that's what you guys believe. But, if there's a chance of still being successful, because clearly it doesn't work the same for everyone, wouldn't you prefer to pursue that? It seems much better than the nihilistic alternative which will just grow into resentment and become a self fulfilling prophecy later (if it hasn't yet).

 

[ardour]

It's never going to be entirely on men and the endless choices online are also there for you guys. .

Is this serious? You might want to create an average guy OLD profile. An empty inbox and months of tailored messages sent into the void awaits.

Women are feeling "discontent" because so few men appeal to them to start with and the ones that do often aren't interested in monogamy. They want masculine men, arguably more than ever. Passivity and avoidant traits are irreconcilable with that. Decades ago when people were expected to settle by their mid 20s it wasn't such a problem for shy men. Now there's so few opportunities IRL, laundry lists of rules around when it's okay to ask someone out, and for someone already inhibited it's just not worth the bother and the complete personality overhaul. Not when you can just game with your flat mates and live in the moment instead.

Arguably the guy in the video is displaying some entitlement, but looking at it this way: when other avenues appear to be cut off or too difficult, who is he going to put an unhealthy focus on?

 

[mgill]

Sit in a busy neighborhood and do some people watching, you'll find a lot of proof of average and even ugly people in relationships.

hardly an accurate picture of reality.  unless you can contrast them with the number average & below average men who are unable to experience a relationship such an observation is meaningless.

That was the whole point of the video you posted. The generalization that women are shallow and there's nothing a below average guy can do to change their inevitable faith of being explored by women for attention but never be taken seriously for a relationship. If below average guys are able to get into relationships, that should be more than enough to disprove the idea that there's nothing anyone can do about it "because they just got dealt a bad hand".
I understand that it's a generalization and not a rule, or I hope that's what you guys believe. But, if there's a chance of still being successful, because clearly it doesn't work the same for everyone, wouldn't you prefer to pursue that? It seems much better than the nihilistic alternative which will just grow into resentment and become a self fulfilling prophecy later (if it hasn't yet).

there are always outliers but these exceptions do not invalidate the rule. for the vast majority of women, even just a lack of height alone is enough to exclude a man from their interest. women are simply not going to settle for short, average or below average men when they have a plethora of tall, good looking men available at the swipe of their phone screens. 

most men would be more than happy with their female looks match while many women are only looking for men with the 4 sixes-over 6 foot tall, 6 pack, earns 6 figures+, 6"+ manhood. the nihilstic attitudes of men are often due to the years of total failure & rejection by the women we are attracted to. i have learned the hard way that for men there is no way to outwork our genetics and no amount of confidence, humor, mindset, hard work or anything else can make up for being a short, bald, at best average looking male-at least that has been my own personal experience.

 

[lnlflwr]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?
The majority of men are average or below, there's no plethora of Greek Gods roaming around, it's probably a very similar amount of males and females who reach that level of attractiveness. I don't understand this argumentation at all, why would all these man be available to an average or below average woman? Same way a Instagram model might not be available to you guys.

I'm sure there's a big past of bad experiences here and it's tough not developing some insecurities, but to focus on just the genetic traits seems like a lot of resistance so one doesn't need to accept something they absolutely need to improve.


Ardour,
He shouldn't put an unhealthy focus on anything, should look at case by case and understand what he could've done better to achieve success. If he believes it's only because of looks and not related to a multitude of things like their age, the type of relationship the girl was interested in having at that specific moment in time, and respecting himself more than trying to manipulate her, he's never going to evolve like a normal person. This is not even touching on attachment theory and all of the reasons why people might put themselves in the position of failing everytime, just to relive trauma, because the familiarity of it is more comfortable than unknown outcomes.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?

That's mostly what mgill and ardour do. Assumptions, generalizations, and thinking for other people. Women seem to be evil, shallow demons set out to manipulate and laugh at men, unless they are super hot and tall with great hair.

 

[mgill]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?

That's mostly what mgill and ardour do.  Assumptions, generalizations, and thinking for other people.  Women seem to be evil, shallow demons set out to manipulate and laugh at men, unless they are super hot and tall with great hair.

or perhaps we speak from many years of our own personal experience trying to date which resulted in only total failure & rejection. it is also not just a few of us as there seems to be many men both here & elsewhere who have had similar experiences. if the world worked the way you like to suggest it does, most of us would have never even heard of this forum.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?

That's mostly what mgill and ardour do.  Assumptions, generalizations, and thinking for other people.  Women seem to be evil, shallow demons set out to manipulate and laugh at men, unless they are super hot and tall with great hair.

or perhaps we speak from many years of our own personal experience trying to date which resulted in only total failure & rejection. it is also not just a few of us as there seems to be many men both here & elsewhere who have had similar experiences. if the world worked the way you like to suggest it does, most of us would have never even heard of this forum.

Yes and there are also women who have had those same, exact experiences.  There are also women out there who don't give a **** about hair or if you are only "average" or even if you are shorter than the average man.  THERE lies the problem, because you won't come out of your false perception of reality to even consider that what you seem so hell bent on believing might not be true. 

You get to choose how you want to live your life.  You can either be negative as **** and blame everyone in the world (mainly women, it seems) or you can knock your **** off and start thinking of what you can do with be okay with who you are.  You might come back at me with "I'm fine with who I am, I like myself," but you don't.  That much is very clear from what you post here.

 

[mgill]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?
The majority of men are average or below, there's no plethora of Greek Gods roaming around, it's probably a very similar amount of males and females who reach that level of attractiveness. I don't understand this argumentation at all, why would all these man be available to an average or below average woman? Same way a Instagram model might not be available to you guys.

I'm sure there's a big past of bad experiences here and it's tough not developing some insecurities, but to focus on just the genetic traits seems like a lot of resistance so one doesn't need to accept something they absolutely need to improve.


Ardour,
He shouldn't put an unhealthy focus on anything, should look at case by case and understand what he could've done better to achieve success. If he believes it's only because of looks and not related to a multitude of things like their age, the type of relationship the girl was interested in having at that specific moment in time, and respecting himself more than trying to manipulate her, he's never going to evolve like a normal person. This is not even touching on attachment theory and all of the reasons why people might put themselves in the position of failing everytime, just to relive trauma, because the familiarity of it is more comfortable than unknown outcomes.

lol-speaking of assumptions you seem to think that failure is due to a lack of effort.  i cannot speak for anyone else here but that is certainly not the case for me as i have put in tremendous work doing self improvement but there is no gym for height or face so it has not helped me in the least as far as women go. to even suggest that men would willingly would put themselves in a position to fail at the one thing they wish for more than anything is delusional at best-unless you consider a below average man attempting to pursue the women he finds attractive to fall into this catagory.

the sad reality is that most women choose to share a top tier man or remain single rather than settling for an average or below average man.  i'll leave it to you to google the results when women pose as average looking men on OLD & are forced to realize how impossible it is to compete with the top 20% males in the dating market.

 

[lnlflwr]

It isn't delusional, it's a well documented function of insecure attachment where people repeat the same mistakes because they're more comfortable with the inevitable failure than unknown outcomes that might be anxiety inducing or present an amount of uncertainty they're not comfortable experiencing. It's not a personality trait or character flaw, it's just an issue that needs to be worked through so you can be successful in relationships.
What tells me you might have issues with this is how you're choosing to reply my posts. I wouldn't say that failure is lack of effort because that's very insensitive, people can only give so much of themselves and sometimes they still fail. That's fine, but you can't use that failure as a reason to 1. never try again, and 2. believe you're worthless and won't ever succeed.

 

[TheRealCallie]

It's only failure if you give up. Until you give up, it is nothing more than a lesson that you can either learn from or continue to repeat.

 

[lnlflwr]

It's only failure if you give up.  Until you give up, it is nothing more than a lesson that you can either learn from or continue to repeat.

That's very true. I understand the discouragement because we all feel hopeless sometimes, but if that changes your perspective enough to feel this victimized, it'll be really hard to get the lessons you need to evolve and maybe improve. 

The improvement doesn't need to be related to their personality or physical traits either, maybe just how they approach this type of issue. I can say from personal experience that is really hard to love someone who puts out obstacles like you're going to leave and abandon them anyways, so why bother... it's nearly impossible to deal with that, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because if they don't allow me to love them, how could I?!