Why Dating Sucks for Average Guys

[TheRealCallie]

It's only failure if you give up.  Until you give up, it is nothing more than a lesson that you can either learn from or continue to repeat.

That's very true. I understand the discouragement because we all feel hopeless sometimes, but if that changes your perspective enough to feel this victimized, it'll be really hard to get the lessons you need to evolve and maybe improve. 

The improvement doesn't need to be related to their personality or physical traits either, maybe just how they approach this type of issue. I can say from personal experience that is really hard to love someone who puts out obstacles like you're going to leave and abandon them anyways, so why bother... it's nearly impossible to deal with that, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because if they don't allow me to love them, how could I?!

It's never easy to change your mentality, regardless what it concerns.  I know that all too well.  It's more a matter of how much you want it. You can either continue to make excuses and pass the entirety of the blame off or you can find a way to make it happen, even if it's the hardest thing you've ever done. 
And yeah, it's hard to get close to someone that won't let you get close, which is most likely the problem with these guys.  They have it their heads that no one will want them and refuse to see that people would if they would let them.  They are short or they're bald or they aren't super hot.  A lot of women here (me included)  have told them that we don't want super hot guys, that hair isn't that big of a deal, that being short isn't always a deal breaker, bit they just always come back with us being delusional or lying. I would, probably 9 times out of 10 take an average guy over a super hot guy because of the fact that a lot of super hot guys are arrogant as hell. Looks aren't everything, not for some people.

 

[LostintheBardo]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?
The majority of men are average or below, there's no plethora of Greek Gods roaming around, it's probably a very similar amount of males and females who reach that level of attractiveness. I don't understand this argumentation at all, why would all these man be available to an average or below average woman? Same way a Instagram model might not be available to you guys.

There is evidence that this does indeed happen and that it has been quite a persistent dynamic. See for instance:

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]https:[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]//psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success[/font]

 

"[font=merriweather, serif]Once upon a time, 4,000 to 8,000 years after humanity invented agriculture, something very strange happened to human reproduction. Across the globe, for every 17 women who were reproducing, passing on genes that are still around today—only one man did the same.[/font]

[font=merriweather, serif]"It wasn't like there was a mass death of males. They were there, so what were they doing?" asks Melissa Wilson Sayres, a computational biologist at Arizona State University, and a member of a group of scientists who uncovered this moment in prehistory by analyzing modern genes."[/font]

Also see:

https://www.yourtango.com/2016285828/women-find-80-percent-men-unattractive-says-crazy-study

"[font=Lato, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you look at the gray line, you can see that women rate a whopping 80 percent of men as worse-looking than medium. That's pretty harsh, ladies."
[/font]

The end result of all this is a smaller percentage of men tend to have a lot of success and a much bigger portion struggle. It's just getting really difficult to deny this happens.

Also, from my personal experience on Tinder, yes girls have insanely high standards. Oh and there are stats to back this up:

https://www.cnet.com/news/tinder-plus-men-women-swiping/

"After a 2014 interview with Tinder CEO Sean Rad, the New York Times reported that men swiped right, or "liked", 46 percent of the time while women did so to 14 percent of profiles. Because men make up roughly 60 percent of Tinder's 50 million users, there are a lot less "likes" shared between the larger group of users."

I just don't get why there is this determination not to see what Mgill is talking about here, not saying you have to agree with him on everything.

 

[mgill]

It isn't delusional, it's a well documented function of insecure attachment where people repeat the same mistakes because they're more comfortable with the inevitable failure than unknown outcomes that might be anxiety inducing or present an amount of uncertainty they're not comfortable experiencing. It's not a personality trait or character flaw, it's just an issue that needs to be worked through so you can be successful in relationships.
What tells me you might have issues with this is how you're choosing to reply my posts. I wouldn't say that failure is lack of effort because that's very insensitive, people can only give so much of themselves and sometimes they still fail. That's fine, but you can't use that failure as a reason to 1. never try again, and 2. believe you're worthless and won't ever succeed.

i can assure you that i am in no way comfortable where i am at and would do just about anything to change it for the better. what you suggest may be true if it were a case of having another person's interest and then having things fail due to my intentional actions.  for me this has never happened.  not a single date in over 8 years and each rejection is worse than the last because it serves to reinforce the fact that i am just too physically unattractive to ever succeed.  sometimes giving up is the only way to stay sane and retain what little self esteem i may have remaining in this area. it is accepting this fact which has been the source of great misery & angst for me.

as i said, i am actually quite successful and confident in the other area's of my life aside from this one-which also happend to be the only one which is so completely dependent on physical apperance. imo, the idea that one can somehow be confident without ever having success over a very long period of time is delusional.  i don't consider myself worthless but am well aware that the evidence that i am simply not good enough is quite conclusive as that is what i have been taught by the women i have been attracted to for as long as i can remember.

 

[mgill]

" I just don't get why there is this determination not to see what Mgill is talking about here, not saying you have to agree with him on everything. "

imo it is a combination of the Just World fallacy and the huge dichotomy between the dating world for men & women. the vast majority of women are able to attract a man if they are interested in doing so. he may not be the top 20% male whom they are looking for but will be at least average if not above average. this is simply not the case for men though as the stats which you posted clearly show-long with many men heres personal experience. i would be ecstatic if my looks match were interested in me but irl i see the women i consider to be my looks matches paired up with tall, much better looking men whom i could never compete with.

i think the reason why so many women are in denial about these truths is that it is very uncomfortable to realize just how much of one's life is determined at birth by pure, random chance and sometimes there is nothing one can do to change it. giving up before putting in the time & effort is one thing but doing everything you can for many years and still never having success is a clear indicator of the inevitable.

 

[ardour]

Women self-sabotage too but it doesn't seem to prevent them from dating.

We just have different life experience. Women go through the first half of their lives with an abundance mindset as most of them have had men show up for them. Hence, they are pickier and slower to invest. Even when the attention is demeaning they're at least aware the opposite *** finds them attractive (basic sexual validation).

A lot of men go through life like starving animals latching on to the nearest source of attention; crushing on any women who's nice to them or just sees them platonically, or if they get a chance, ruining things by getting attached too early.

Many guys in their 20s would have to go through a ridiculous number of rejections to get one date.

Aging really changes things though. I'm in my early 40's and notice how much friendlier middle-aged women are in comparison to the aloof and unknowable girls I remember 10-20 years ago. Suddenly they're engaging, talking to me... But why now? Declining options, looks or ticking biological clocks? Gotta say I resent it. It's as if they've finally *lowered themselves* to seeing someone like me as an option, when we're both obviously past the prime of life. What a joke.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Aging really changes things though. I'm in my early 40's and notice how much friendlier middle-aged women are in comparison to the aloof and unknowable girls I remember 10-20 years ago. Suddenly they're engaging. Talking to me... But why now?  Declining options, looks or ticking biological clocks? Gotta say I resent it. It's  as if they've finally *lowered themselves* to seeing someone like me as an option, when we're both obviously past the prime of life. What a joke.

Or maybe they are just realizing that personality is a bigger factor to a relationship.   I don't see why it has to be that they are lowering themselves.

 

[Xpendable]

Too little, Too late

 

[TheRealCallie]

Too little, Too late

Well if that's the case, I guess you don't really want a relationship, do you? People grow, people change, people mature.  Are you say that nothing about you has changed since you were younger?  You're way of thinking is the exact same as it was 19 or 20 years ago?  That seems a little short sighted to me.

 

[TheRealCallie]

And another thing. let's say you're right (and I don't believe that women have it any different than men) and any woman can get a date. How many of those women get second dates? Don't you think that it would the same or possibly even worse to have a guy agree to go out with you and then never talk to you again? Or what if those guys just asked the girls out as a joke? Rejection is rejection.

 

[lnlflwr]

Sorry, but it sounds like you both are making great assumptions about dating in general. Where's the proof that women are only willing to choose extremely attractive guys that tick all of these boxes?
The majority of men are average or below, there's no plethora of Greek Gods roaming around, it's probably a very similar amount of males and females who reach that level of attractiveness. I don't understand this argumentation at all, why would all these man be available to an average or below average woman? Same way a Instagram model might not be available to you guys.

There is evidence that this does indeed happen and that it has been quite a persistent dynamic. See for instance:

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]https:[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]//psmag.com/environment/17-to-1-reproductive-success[/font]

 

"[font=merriweather, serif]Once upon a time, 4,000 to 8,000 years after humanity invented agriculture, something very strange happened to human reproduction. Across the globe, for every 17 women who were reproducing, passing on genes that are still around today—only one man did the same.[/font]

[font=merriweather, serif]"It wasn't like there was a mass death of males. They were there, so what were they doing?" asks Melissa Wilson Sayres, a computational biologist at Arizona State University, and a member of a group of scientists who uncovered this moment in prehistory by analyzing modern genes."[/font]

Also see:

https://www.yourtango.com/2016285828/women-find-80-percent-men-unattractive-says-crazy-study

"[font=Lato, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you look at the gray line, you can see that women rate a whopping 80 percent of men as worse-looking than medium. That's pretty harsh, ladies."
[/font]

The end result of all this is a smaller percentage of men tend to have a lot of success and a much bigger portion struggle. It's just getting really difficult to deny this happens.

Also, from my personal experience on Tinder, yes girls have insanely high standards. Oh and there are stats to back this up:

https://www.cnet.com/news/tinder-plus-men-women-swiping/

"After a 2014 interview with Tinder CEO Sean Rad, the New York Times reported that men swiped right, or "liked", 46 percent of the time while women did so to 14 percent of profiles. Because men make up roughly 60 percent of Tinder's 50 million users, there are a lot less "likes" shared between the larger group of users."

I just don't get why there is this determination not to see what Mgill is talking about here, not saying you have to agree with him on everything.

I'm sorry but dating app data doesn't show much other than what happens in dating apps. It's not an accurate representation of the world or human relationships. The link to OKCupid's website wasn't working either, so I don't know what those numbers truly mean without reading the methodology of the study. It might mean that women are only willing to pursue the top, but that might also be due to what Ardour mentioned, about women not pursuing guys in general, just waiting for them to make the move.

The other study is very inconclusive and we might have better information in the future, but I can't just accept that this is or always was the case. If it was, we wouldn't have the population we have today. Also, just a fun fact, it reminded me of the Gengis Khan thing where they found 1 in 200 living males are directly related to him.

---

Women self-sabotage too but it doesn't seem to prevent them from dating.

We just have different life experience. Women go through the first half of their lives with an abundance mindset as most of them have had men show up for them.  Hence, they are pickier and slower to invest. Even when the attention is demeaning they're at least aware the opposite *** finds them attractive (basic sexual validation). 

A lot of men go through life like starving animals  latching on to the nearest source of attention; crushing on any women who's nice to them or just sees them platonically, or if they get a chance, ruining things by getting attached too early.

Many guys in their 20s  would have to go through a ridiculous number of rejections to get one date.

Aging really changes things though. I'm in my early 40's and notice how much friendlier middle-aged women are in comparison to the aloof and unknowable girls I remember 10-20 years ago. Suddenly they're engaging, talking to me... But why now?  Declining options, looks or ticking biological clocks? Gotta say I resent it. It's  as if they've finally *lowered themselves* to seeing someone like me as an option, when we're both obviously past the prime of life. What a joke.

I read your post earlier today and really resonated with a portion of it, but seems like you edited it out now. :[

 

[lnlflwr]

It isn't delusional, it's a well documented function of insecure attachment where people repeat the same mistakes because they're more comfortable with the inevitable failure than unknown outcomes that might be anxiety inducing or present an amount of uncertainty they're not comfortable experiencing. It's not a personality trait or character flaw, it's just an issue that needs to be worked through so you can be successful in relationships.
What tells me you might have issues with this is how you're choosing to reply my posts. I wouldn't say that failure is lack of effort because that's very insensitive, people can only give so much of themselves and sometimes they still fail. That's fine, but you can't use that failure as a reason to 1. never try again, and 2. believe you're worthless and won't ever succeed.

i can assure you that i am in no way comfortable where i am at and would do just about anything to change it for the better. what you suggest may be true if it were a case of having another person's interest and then having things fail due to my intentional actions.  for me this has never happened.  not a single date in over 8 years and each rejection is worse than the last because it serves to reinforce the fact that i am just too physically unattractive to ever succeed.  sometimes giving up is the only way to stay sane and retain what little self esteem i may have remaining in this area. it is accepting this fact which has been the source of great misery & angst for me.

as i said, i am actually quite successful and confident in the other area's of my life aside from this one-which also happend to be the only one which is so completely dependent on physical apperance. imo, the idea that one can somehow be confident without ever having success over a very long period of time is delusional.  i don't consider myself worthless but am well aware that the evidence that i am simply not good enough is quite conclusive as that is what i have been taught by the women i have been attracted to for as long as i can remember.

I understand what you're saying completely and empathize with you a lot. I don't want to be the person who's just going to say "lower your standards" because that is wrong, but I do believe you can still be attracted mostly to people that will continue the cycle of getting rejected. It doesn't have to be about how they look at all, just about their way of conducting themselves in the world where there's a subconscious confirmation that they wouldn't give you the time of day. I'm saying this because I've had issues with this before, I have pursued people that wouldn't allow me to care for them because they were too closed off to the idea that anyone would ever care about them at all. I learned that it has a ton to do with how starved for affection and care I was as a child, and continuing the pattern of making effort to be loved and not getting it was my traumatic cycle, which is why I often pursue people who are avoidant and not willing to really allow themselves to get hurt anymore. I wonder if you're an avoidant type.

 

[Finished]

Aging really changes things though. I'm in my early 40's and notice how much friendlier middle-aged women are in comparison to the aloof and unknowable girls I remember 10-20 years ago. Suddenly they're engaging. Talking to me... But why now?  Declining options, looks or ticking biological clocks? Gotta say I resent it. It's  as if they've finally *lowered themselves* to seeing someone like me as an option, when we're both obviously past the prime of life. What a joke.

Or maybe they are just realizing that personality is a bigger factor to a relationship.   I don't see why it has to be that they are lowering themselves.

Or maybe they too have given up dating. They can't find the "right" guy and/or have had bad experiences. Several middle aged(45 - 55) women near me just want someone to talk to sometimes and leave it at that.

 

[Xpendable]

Too little, Too late

Well if that's the case, I guess you don't really want a relationship, do you? People grow, people change, people mature.  Are you say that nothing about you has changed since you were younger?  You're way of thinking is the exact same as it was 19 or 20 years ago?  That seems a little short sighted to me.

Yes, I'm now better. I don't want a woman who's just now figuring out what she wants. I want the best years of someone life's if they are going to have mine.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Too little, Too late

Well if that's the case, I guess you don't really want a relationship, do you? People grow, people change, people mature.  Are you say that nothing about you has changed since you were younger?  You're way of thinking is the exact same as it was 19 or 20 years ago?  That seems a little short sighted to me.

Yes, I'm now better. I don't want a woman who's just now figuring out what she wants. I want the best years of someone life's if they are going to have mine.

"The best years of someone's life".... isn't that subjective?  Who decides what the best years are?  Are you talking general life and what studies say or are you talking about the time in one's life that they are most happy?  
My 20's sucked from being in an abusive relationship and hating myself.  My early thirties weren't much better.  Does that mean I don't deserve a guy because my "best" years were stuck in an abusive relationship. It doesn't matter at all that I'm a much better person now than I have ever been? 
I'm being legit here. I don't understand what you mean by "best years."

 

[ardour]

"The best years of someone's life".... isn't that subjective?  Who decides what the best years are?  Are you talking general life and what studies say or are you talking about the time in one's life that they are most happy?  
My 20's sucked from being in an abusive relationship and hating myself.  My early thirties weren't much better.  Does that mean I don't deserve a guy because my "best" years were stuck in an abusive relationship. It doesn't matter at all that I'm a much better person now than I have ever been? 
I'm being legit here. I don't understand what you mean by "best years."

As is pointed out to us regularly, nobody "deserves" anything. 

In the broadest sense the best years are the first half of life where you're both in good health, able to find each other attractive and can procreate.  20-35.  Young adult. 
 
While I realize this doesn't apply to all women it's convenient to finally "know yourself" after people have had their fun.  Many spend those years in relationships with dominant men then conveniently come to this realization just as their looks are rapidly fading and it's no longer feasible to have kids.  They can't rely on the factors that previously got them attention, hence the puritanism,   the angry  shots taken at those of us  who never got to experience this.  

Honestly I'm just not interested. A lot of people in my age bracket look like they've been sitting in the midday sun for 15 years straight while eating mince pies. It's not possible to find them attractive in a minimal requirement way, so dating is out of the question. And from a biological level this is not supposed to happen. It's deeply weird to be finally dating at this stage.

 

[kaetic]

Women self-sabotage too but it doesn't seem to prevent them from dating.

We just have different life experience. Women go through the first half of their lives with an abundance mindset as most of them have had men show up for them.  Hence, they are pickier and slower to invest. Even when the attention is demeaning they're at least aware the opposite *** finds them attractive (basic sexual validation). 

A lot of men go through life like starving animals  latching on to the nearest source of attention; crushing on any women who's nice to them or just sees them platonically, or if they get a chance, ruining things by getting attached too early.

Many guys in their 20s  would have to go through a ridiculous number of rejections to get one date.

Aging really changes things though. I'm in my early 40's and notice how much friendlier middle-aged women are in comparison to the aloof and unknowable girls I remember 10-20 years ago. Suddenly they're engaging, talking to me... But why now?  Declining options, looks or ticking biological clocks? Gotta say I resent it. It's  as if they've finally *lowered themselves* to seeing someone like me as an option, when we're both obviously past the prime of life. What a joke.

Are these the same women you've been around your whole life, or is this a new "group"? IMO it makes a difference, but I can understand why you'd have a  negative view and group them all together.

 

[kaetic]

"The best years of someone's life".... isn't that subjective?  Who decides what the best years are?  Are you talking general life and what studies say or are you talking about the time in one's life that they are most happy?  
My 20's sucked from being in an abusive relationship and hating myself.  My early thirties weren't much better.  Does that mean I don't deserve a guy because my "best" years were stuck in an abusive relationship. It doesn't matter at all that I'm a much better person now than I have ever been? 
I'm being legit here. I don't understand what you mean by "best years."

As is pointed out to us regularly, nobody "deserves" anything. 

In the broadest sense the best years are the first half of life where you're both in good health, able to find each other attractive and can procreate.  20-35.  Young adult. 
 
While I realize this doesn't apply to all women it's convenient to finally "know yourself" after people have had their fun.  Many spend those years in relationships with dominant men then conveniently come to this realization just as their looks are rapidly fading and it's no longer feasible to have kids.  They can't rely on the factors that previously got them attention, hence the puritanism,   the angry  shots taken at those of us  who never got to experience this.  

Honestly I'm just not interested. A lot of people in my age bracket look like they've been sitting in the midday sun for 15 years straight while eating mince pies. It's not possible to find them attractive in a minimal requirement way, so dating is out of the question. And from a biological level this is not supposed to happen. It's deeply weird to be finally dating at this stage.

Everyone deserves a chance to be happy. No one is guaranteed that happiness though, is that what you meant?
I disagree with young adulthood being the best years of your life... but I get wanting to have kids and ruling out people who can't get you that. There's always adoption, but that's not as easily done as said.
I'm not so sympathetic about the "looks are rapidly fading(after 35)" remark... yes looks don't last, but there are a lot of attractive people (men and women) who are over 35.

Maybe it's deeply weird to just be starting to date in your late 30's, 40's, 50's whatever. But as to whether it's supposed to happen or not, I don't believe it's written anywhere that you aren't allowed to date if you've never dated before. Sure it might be awkward, but what's the alternative? I get you aren't interested in starting to date now, I'm just saying... by your logic, if you've never gotten experience before... then you're destined to be alone forever because it's just weird to... what... not be perfect at dating when you're older? I don't think it really gets easier. You're always going to have awkward moments. You can't practice for every possible scenario. And the person you're dating is pretty much in the same position as you regardless of experience. They're still single for whatever reason, and I don't mean that as a dig. There are a lot of circumstances that can lead some one to be dating later in life.

But, whatever makes you happy, I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I just wanted to share my view.

 

[lnlflwr]

Oh, my stars and garters! I'm a third of Helen Mirren's age and she's still far hotter than I'll ever be. Ok guys, I get it know, I give up as well. yikes

 

[ardour]

Oh, my stars and garters! I'm a third of Helen Mirren's age and she's still far hotter than I'll ever be. Ok guys, I get it know, I give up as well. yikes

How dare men prefer younger women, predictable. Like I said, playing the puritan card out of offence, or because it's the only card left, usually from someone who gets to date when they're young.

At least I'm honest?

She's not unattractive but she's elderly looking. Should we be attracted to elderly looking people? I don't expect younger women be attracted to 77 year old Robert De Niro either. That's kind of ridiculous.

 

[AnonymousMe]

I am in NO position to comment on this thread, as I'm a below-average-looking, 31-year-old dude without dating experience (obviously), but I will say that we shouldn't take the video seriously.
It's not a generalization of how dating goes for "average" guys, it's just a dude recounting his experiences with women and he's just had some bad luck.  Here where I live, I've seen many, MANY times men, that I consider "uglier" than me, dating all sorts of girls ("ugly," "average," "pretty," "hot," you name it), so I've also seen many, MANY "average" guys with girlfriends too.
So, the way I see it, as Col. Archibald Gracie said in the Titanic movie: "All life is a game of luck."  Love's not something that can be found, it just has to happen and everybody, women included, just have to hope they hit the jackpot with somebody (or some people, if you're poly, like me).
Of course, as human beings, we can't fight against our instincts, so to increase our chances of being successful, we have to try in making the best of our capable selves.  Like exercising, being financially independent, have as many friends as possible, etc.  That is what I'm doing to try in getting some love.  It's always the simple things that helps everyone.
But again, I'm just a below-average-looking, 31-year-old man without dating experiences, so if I'm full of ****, just ignore me; I'm accustomed to that anyway.     But it does hurt, every time.