Being the other man...

[blackhole]

I've never done it to families with children, or married individuals.

But pray tell me why exactly should I give that much heed to the fact that a girl already has a boyfriend, or even an established one? If I don't care for him, he's just more competition in the way of who I want.

If I am to respect what every other guy wanted, I might as well not even try for girls who have more than one suitor. And well, that's not me. I have honor and dignity, but God save you if you get in my way.

no ring, no vows, no problem

yeah, if she ain't married, she is fair game. that's the rules of the wild.

we don't own other people.

---

Theires always a fucken reason to not face up to it.
U can't always have what u wanten.

My exgirlfriend Kinzee says that one time...
guilt isnt worth the tiem you spend for cash
you agree?

dollers to sense, as they say.
One time my boss asked me for a blowjb...
I said "ok"" but it never happened...
Just goes to show you what guilt does.

Its called twelve steps.
first step is admiting ur gult..
Have to own the chevy blazer with thrity inch wheels, man
fukken sexy...

absolute lolz

 

[Code S.O.L]

Because gilt is what only guilty peopel feel.
U find every reason not to fly strait
U can't get gripp with whats in front of your face.

its like my daughter Jaycee
I told her to ignore what others say...
becuz only jealous people have soemthing to hide...
Theres no shame in a three some
I tell her its only about love.

You cant always askk for permission
Sometime you just gotta go for it.
and not worry if your guilty.
And sex.

Theires always a fucken reason to not face up to it.
U can't always have what u wanten.

My exgirlfriend Kinzee says that one time...
guilt isnt worth the tiem you spend for cash
you agree?

dollers to sense, as they say.
One time my boss asked me for a blowjb...
I said "ok"" but it never happened...
Just goes to show you what guilt does.

Its called twelve steps.
first step is admiting ur gult..
Have to own the chevy blazer with thrity inch wheels, man
fukken sexy...

 

[IgnoredOne]

Ignored, I don't want to read your thoughts. Get your own relationship instead of trying to butt into others. Jedi said it best.

Ah, but I was. Someone else just happened to be in the way.

Jedi said something completely distinct from what you said, which WAS relevant and practical, and which I acknowledged separately.

Honestly, the your logic bewilders me. Either you accept that she is a fully functioning human being who is capable of making her own decisions, including not staying in a relationship; or you don't, evidently think that she is not allowed for fully independent choice, and is therefore in some vague contractual obligation to her opposite(despite being unmarried).

EITHER WAY, her action is justified. If she's a fully qualified to make her own decisions, then she's allowed to accept her own consequences. If she's is somehow bound by some invisible relational contract, then it is the fault of her opposite for not being able to enforce her obligations(whatever they are).

Honestly, I cannot grok your logic at all.

Luna, I never mentioned married individuals or children. Children are innocent victims and should not be involved in such situations; marriage /is/ indeed a sacred contract which I respect. Its good that you are taking effort in your relationship to avoid such debacles, and it shows foresight and proactively avoids exactly this issue. I maintain again, that cheating is merely the symptom of fundamental relationship dysfunction - perhaps a fatal symptom for the health of the relationship, but the result of systematic issues that existed in the first place. You cannot morally confine people into an invisible, unwritten contract that one of the participants already evidently doesn't care for. If the bond of trust is already broken by someone who wants to go out and stray, then there wasn't much to salvage in the first place.

 

[floffyschneeman]

Luna, I never mentioned married individuals or children. Children are innocent victims and should not be involved in such situations; marriage /is/ indeed a sacred contract which I respect. Its good that you are taking effort in your relationship to avoid such debacles, and it shows foresight and proactively avoids exactly this issue. I maintain again, that cheating is merely the symptom of fundamental relationship dysfunction - perhaps a fatal symptom for the health of the relationship, but the result of systematic issues that existed in the first place. You cannot morally confine people into an invisible, unwritten contract that one of the participants already evidently doesn't care for. If the bond of trust is already broken by someone who wants to go out and stray, then there wasn't much to salvage in the first place.

I don't think cheating is a symptom of dysfuntional relationship. Dysfunctional relationship is a symptom of not having good communication or good core relationship (in terms of being partners and friends. Although, cheating is an evident symptom of a weak character.

You cannot justify cheating because it is not just. It is not a result of something occurring in the relationship. It is entirely a different issue outside of the relationship or partnership. It's an individual issue one must settle with him/herself.


But of course, every cheater will always justify his/her reason for cheating.

 

[IgnoredOne]

I don't think cheating is a symptom of dysfuntional relationship. Dysfunctional relationship is a symptom of not having good communication or good core relationship (in terms of being partners and friends. Although, cheating is an evident symptom of a weak character.

You cannot justify cheating because it is not just. It is not a result of something occurring in the relationship. It is entirely a different issue outside of the relationship or partnership. It's an individual issue one must settle with him/herself.

Is it? It might indeed be a character trait, but I don't think that entirely removing the relationship is valid. Why would anyone even consider straying? Because he/she isn't finding everything that he/she was looking for within the limits of the relationship.

Cheating is fairly costly in emotional terms; it entails potential social disapproval as well as risking/ending a currently stable relationship for some potential gain. It can extend to financial and physical instability as well, if income is shared or if there is cohabitation involved.

Therefore, on a rational level, the gain must exceed the risk of loss. Because we operate on incomplete information and a significant amount of irrational chemical drivers/hormones, we often misjudge both gain and loss, but that doesn't quite change the fundamental nature:

Someone cheats because the potential of gain, as judged by the individual at the moment, exceeds the cost of or the risk of loss, as judged by the individual at the moment.

My opinion, and certainly in my own cases, the women cheated only when they felt adequately dissatisfied with their present situation - usually due to feeling neglected in some fashion. And they did not, or could not communicate this with their partners and gain a satisfatory result(which is, of course, a safer and less risk/loss method), which is why they began to consider others as options.

Ultimately, I think the idea that it is merely individual, or merely relationship excludes the fact that like all behavior, it is a combination of factors. There is a personality component, which directs the person to take action based on the environment which the personality has been situated in.

 

[floffyschneeman]

Probably the top most reason why a person cheats is when he/she is still not sure if the third person would take him/her if he/she leaves the current. There would be risk if you leave your current cos you are not sure the third person will take you, then you end up alone. There would be risk if you choose to stay cos you don't know if the relationship can still be fixed. People cheat because they do what is easy for them, especially on the emotional aspect.

There is always a decent and honourable way to break off a relationship without hurting or minimizing the hurt you cause yourself and everyone involved. but you have to be strong for that. Judging from your signature, I guess it is safe to say you are a person who aspire decency and honour.

 

[IgnoredOne]

Probably the top most reason why a person cheats is when he/she is still not sure if the third person would take him/her if he/she leaves the current. There would be risk if you leave your current cos you are not sure the third person will take you, then you end up alone. There would be risk if you choose to stay cos you don't know if the relationship can still be fixed. People cheat because they do what is easy for them, especially on the emotional aspect.

There is always a decent and honourable way to break off a relationship without hurting or minimizing the hurt you cause yourself and everyone involved. but you have to be strong for that. Judging from your signature, I guess it is safe to say you are a person who aspire decency and honour.

I would say that the moral thing is what does not hurt an innocent party. For this particular case, there was no deception involved at all - L blantantly told her present ex that she was beginning to have feelings for me even though she was still with him. She then hedged for a time, before leaving him after her friend encouraged her to(which in itself, I think, is an interesting observation of how we behave to the expectations of others).

The only person who was hurt was her ex, who I don't have any sympathy for as I consider him competition, and hardly an innocent party. Presumably, the moment he engaged in the relationship, he also must accept there was the risk of it ending.

I don't see how my honor was injured in any specific way for not 'respecting' her ex's relationship with her. As far as I consider, it was completely fair even if it might be cruel. In her case, she is clearly guilty of indecisiveness but indecisiveness is not a moral failing.

I think that fundamentally, there seems to be some belief here that a guy owes the other girl's ex some measure of consideration - which, in my opinion, is silly. I notice that very few guys have protested my simple notion of vae victis because that's all it is, and competition is something that men ultimately accept. And it neither stains my honor nor my decency to be the winner, or for trying be one.

 

[Peter Lorre]

I don't think cheating is a symptom of dysfuntional relationship. Dysfunctional relationship is a symptom of not having good communication or good core relationship (in terms of being partners and friends. Although, cheating is an evident symptom of a weak character.

You cannot justify cheating because it is not just. It is not a result of something occurring in the relationship. It is entirely a different issue outside of the relationship or partnership. It's an individual issue one must settle with him/herself.

Is it? It might indeed be a character trait, but I don't think that entirely removing the relationship is valid. Why would anyone even consider straying? Because he/she isn't finding everything that he/she was looking for within the limits of the relationship.

Cheating is fairly costly in emotional terms; it entails potential social disapproval as well as risking/ending a currently stable relationship for some potential gain. It can extend to financial and physical instability as well, if income is shared or if there is cohabitation involved.

Therefore, on a rational level, the gain must exceed the risk of loss. Because we operate on incomplete information and a significant amount of irrational chemical drivers/hormones, we often misjudge both gain and loss, but that doesn't quite change the fundamental nature:

Someone cheats because the potential of gain, as judged by the individual at the moment, exceeds the cost of or the risk of loss, as judged by the individual at the moment.

My opinion, and certainly in my own cases, the women cheated only when they felt adequately dissatisfied with their present situation - usually due to feeling neglected in some fashion. And they did not, or could not communicate this with their partners and gain a satisfatory result(which is, of course, a safer and less risk/loss method), which is why they began to consider others as options.

Ultimately, I think the idea that it is merely individual, or merely relationship excludes the fact that like all behavior, it is a combination of factors. There is a personality component, which directs the person to take action based on the environment which the personality has been situated in.

I have to disagree, in my opnion cheating's usually not a rational choice but an emotional one. That's why people can overcome the huge risk factor, that's why people often regret it.

It's connected to lust, conquest and it's often a spur-of-the-moment thing.

 

[IgnoredOne]

I have to disagree, in my opnion cheating's usually not a rational choice but an emotional one. That's why people can overcome the huge risk factor, that's why people often regret it.

It's connected to lust, conquest and it's often a spur-of-the-moment thing.

Which I don't disagree:

Because we operate on incomplete information and a significant amount of irrational chemical drivers/hormones, we often misjudge both gain and loss.

Primarily we misjudge risk, I'll say, as well as gain due to distorted perceptions thanks to hormones; I generally attribute emotions significantly to neurochemical factors. I do think that people /try/ to operate on some level of rationality, even when emotional, but with badly distorted perceptions. Then again, its a bit of a moot and ultimately philosophical point.

But I do think that most men cheat because they figure that it won't be caught and its worth it. That's a classic case of judging the risk and the reward, yet both are usually badly misjudged at the heat of the moment.

I do think that 'break relationship' and 'cheating' has somehow been mysteriously conflated in this thread too, but they're not the same. Deception is always wrong, but being conquering isn't.

 

[blackhole]

no man has ever stolen a woman who wasn't looking to be stolen.

unless of course, he used duct tape and a ski mask.

 

[Lonesome Crow]

You might not agree with me..you dont have to.

May I suggest you reserch on codependency. Codependency
dosnt entirely mean your partner
being an addict or alcoholic.

Toxic relatioship or love triangle
are toxic by most people.

Its the triats of the codependent
his/sheself.

Major RED FLAG...
1. You want to save her
2. Youre obsesssed with her or situation.
3. U wont rest or be happy unless shes happy or safe..Therefore your
happiness depends on her.
4. You have Controll issues. Most if not all codependent people have control issue.. Wanting to control
manipulate, people or situations
5 You justify or are in total denial.

6 Youll attack me or others for being the fucken messanger....

---

The 12 steps program is but one living program that can help a person with codependecy.

A lot of it centers around your self esteem or self worth. Not in an egotistical way.

Being able to stand on your own two feet...at an EMOTIONAL level for most
codependent peaple is a major challenge.

 

[floffyschneeman]

Probably the top most reason why a person cheats is when he/she is still not sure if the third person would take him/her if he/she leaves the current. There would be risk if you leave your current cos you are not sure the third person will take you, then you end up alone. There would be risk if you choose to stay cos you don't know if the relationship can still be fixed. People cheat because they do what is easy for them, especially on the emotional aspect.

There is always a decent and honourable way to break off a relationship without hurting or minimizing the hurt you cause yourself and everyone involved. but you have to be strong for that. Judging from your signature, I guess it is safe to say you are a person who aspire decency and honour.

I would say that the moral thing is what does not hurt an innocent party. For this particular case, there was no deception involved at all - L blantantly told her present ex that she was beginning to have feelings for me even though she was still with him. She then hedged for a time, before leaving him after her friend encouraged her to(which in itself, I think, is an interesting observation of how we behave to the expectations of others).

The only person who was hurt was her ex, who I don't have any sympathy for as I consider him competition, and hardly an innocent party. Presumably, the moment he engaged in the relationship, he also must accept there was the risk of it ending.

I don't see how my honor was injured in any specific way for not 'respecting' her ex's relationship with her. As far as I consider, it was completely fair even if it might be cruel. In her case, she is clearly guilty of indecisiveness but indecisiveness is not a moral failing.

I think that fundamentally, there seems to be some belief here that a guy owes the other girl's ex some measure of consideration - which, in my opinion, is silly. I notice that very few guys have protested my simple notion of vae victis because that's all it is, and competition is something that men ultimately accept. And it neither stains my honor nor my decency to be the winner, or for trying be one.

As I have said on my earlier post that your situation is an isolated case. Other factors can change the conclusion of the whole. Did she cheated with you before she told her then current that she was having problems with the relationship? If he neglected her at her most fragile moment, why was she with him and let herself get into the situation where she had to become a ''cheater''? ( I don't wanna know, I'm just trying to make a point ^^)

What I find silly is how you imply that it is the cheated's fault of not giving what the cheater what he/she deserve that resulted to the cheater doing his/her godly deeds. If the current is not treating you right, why would you let it get to a point where you have to cheat. Would you let a man beat you up to the point of you having to kill him? I find it a desperate attempt to justify a whole concept that has tore many lives, many esteems, many relationships. The act in itself is wrong and 1 situation can't make it right. It's not about men competing, it's about having a weak character and self-control. It's about being loose. A person who can easily transfer his/her affection from one person to the other is a person who can't decide what he/she needs nor want.

I am sure you would agree with me when I say that 1 situation can't be a valid point to justify a concept of stealing someone from another? And to take your situation as an example is a bit of risky since you were involved in it and you accessed it base on your own personal biases. Do you really believe that cheating is accepted, just as long as no papers or children involved? then what is the point of having a committed relationship?

Taking your said situation as an example, have you ever thought of the other possibilities how you and the girl might have handled it better if, let's say, impulsive feelings weren't involved?

Lastly, if a person who got cheated came up to you for advice on how to cope, will you tell him/her that it was his/her fault for not being enough to his/her cheating partner?

I think that fundamentally, there seems to be some belief here that a guy owes the other girl's ex some measure of consideration - which, in my opinion, is silly.

It would be, if you say it that way, but really it's just an exercise of the golden rule in real-life situation

 

[IgnoredOne]

It would be, if you say it that way, but really it's just an exercise of the golden rule in real-life situation

That /is/ the golden rule for me. I don't expect anyone else to 'respect my right' so neither do I respect anyone else's. As will be done to me, I do unto others. And I consider it perfectly natural.

As far as having a committed relationship, it is not /contractual/; it is committed as long as strong feelings were involved. The fact that it fell apart is in itself evidence that those had perhaps dissipated. Once formal vows or innocent victims are involved, then that is a different case.

As for friends, I've had similar situations where they had women leave them. I've never had one of them feel like it was not his responsibility, regardless of situation; its almost a young male perogative to believe he controls the world anyways(and is invincible), I'm pretty sure, and as such, such a local thing must wholly be his fault.

 

[Trojan]

It would be, if you say it that way, but really it's just an exercise of the golden rule in real-life situation

That /is/ the golden rule for me. I don't expect anyone else to 'respect my right' so neither do I respect anyone else's. As will be done to me, I do unto others. And I consider it perfectly natural.

As far as having a committed relationship, it is not /contractual/; it is committed as long as strong feelings were involved. The fact that it fell apart is in itself evidence that those had perhaps dissipated. Once formal vows or innocent victims are involved, then that is a different case.

As for friends, I've had similar situations where they had women leave them. I've never had one of them feel like it was not his responsibility, regardless of situation; its almost a young male perogative to believe he controls the world anyways(and is invincible), I'm pretty sure, and as such, such a local thing must wholly be his fault.

If, for instance, the boyfriend of the woman you've been wooing (for lack of a better word) confronted you personally and explained to you that he was trying hard to get the relationship back on its feet - despite your intrusion - and kindly asked you to keep your **** out of it, would he have earned enough of your respect for you to leave his girl alone?
Just trying to see your way of thinking

 

[IgnoredOne]

It would be, if you say it that way, but really it's just an exercise of the golden rule in real-life situation

That /is/ the golden rule for me. I don't expect anyone else to 'respect my right' so neither do I respect anyone else's. As will be done to me, I do unto others. And I consider it perfectly natural.

As far as having a committed relationship, it is not /contractual/; it is committed as long as strong feelings were involved. The fact that it fell apart is in itself evidence that those had perhaps dissipated. Once formal vows or innocent victims are involved, then that is a different case.

As for friends, I've had similar situations where they had women leave them. I've never had one of them feel like it was not his responsibility, regardless of situation; its almost a young male perogative to believe he controls the world anyways(and is invincible), I'm pretty sure, and as such, such a local thing must wholly be his fault.

If, for instance, the boyfriend of the woman you've been wooing (for lack of a better word) confronted you personally and explained to you that he was trying hard to get the relationship back on its feet - despite your intrusion - and kindly asked you to keep your **** out of it, would he have earned enough of your respect for you to leave his girl alone?
Just trying to see your way of thinking

Maybe. Depends on the person. I didn't care much for L's boyfriend who basically ran from me and was an abject coward, but I think I might respect someone who did confront me. That does take courage and definitely shows a someone of calibur.

 

[Trojan]

Well, I know that if anyone tried that on me I wouldn't be so reasonable. I'd say I'm quite a jealous creature - probably because of my own shortcomings and insecurities - and I don't think I could contain my anger at that sort of disrespect. I don't particularly have a problem with your reason, but I would advise you to be careful, I'm sure other people would feel exactly the same as me.

 

[IgnoredOne]

Well, I know that if anyone tried that on me I wouldn't be so reasonable. I'd say I'm quite a jealous creature - probably because of my own shortcomings and insecurities - and I don't think I could contain my anger at that sort of disrespect. I don't particularly have a problem with your reason, but I would advise you to be careful, I'm sure other people would feel exactly the same as me.

And I am a jealous creature myself. I would welcome aggression, which I completely understand and in indeed, the right of any human being. After all, I did insult L's boyfriend as a coward precisely for NOT fighting.

The way you react is, in my opinion, both logical and perfectly justified.

 

[VanillaCreme]

I can't say from a man's point of view in a relationship, but if a man approached me, told me he liked me, I'd fully expect my guy to say something to him about it. And I'd fully expect the outside guy to piss off. If he didn't, I'd have to say something were wrong with him.

And on the flip side, if a female approached my guy, and I said something about it, I'd fully expect her to **** off. If she didn't, I'd say we'd have serious problem. I wouldn't be so sure I would contain myself.

There IS a problem with wanting to "take" or "steal" someone's partner. The fact that people are so arrogant and too blind to really see the situation how it is, baffles me. There's a problem when you can't get your own. The only exception I'd make is if you knew the person, and started to feel things for them, and perhaps they were in a bad relationship - that they told you - and you felt like they would be better off with you. Other than that, there's no excuse or reason to come up and try to be with someone who already has someone.

 

[IgnoredOne]

I can't say from a man's point of view in a relationship, but if a man approached me, told me he liked me, I'd fully expect my guy to say something to him about it. And I'd fully expect the outside guy to piss off. If he didn't, I'd have to say something were wrong with him.

I believe the issue here is simultaneously that the guy was /not/ discouraging the interloper(me) enough and the girl was encouraging it. So...

 

[Trojan]

I can't say from a man's point of view in a relationship, but if a man approached me, told me he liked me, I'd fully expect my guy to say something to him about it. And I'd fully expect the outside guy to piss off. If he didn't, I'd have to say something were wrong with him.

And on the flip side, if a female approached my guy, and I said something about it, I'd fully expect her to **** off. If she didn't, I'd say we'd have serious problem. I wouldn't be so sure I would contain myself.

The worst situation is when a guy (or girl) is clearly flirting with your partner, but appearing to be really friendly to you as well. If you act too aggressively you look like a ******, but it starts to become very uncomfortable for me.
Can anyone relate to this?