Do you believe in friendships between men and women?

[ardour]

But what if you can't help the Neanderthal urge to fancy anyone that's female. How do you suppress it to keep a good male female friendship going .Say if your down the bar/pub  you've both had a few and your so close it hurts what do you do?

When I was a teenager, I used to worry that I might be the kind of girl who ends up liking every guy she befriends. I thought I was going to be like that, so I kinda made my mindset change. Not sure specifically how but I just changed my perspective on guys who end up being friends with me in such a way that I don't... or can't see them any more than just a friend. It sounds a bit cold, but it doesn't have to be. Not sure if I'm making much sense here lol but maybe someone can relate too.

You're able to partition off emotions like that, which has its benefits. Men are a bit more inclined to be looking out for a potential partner wherever they can... even if it's ultimately not a good idea and means putting yourself through pain and awkwardness (not to mention the loss of a friend, as is usually the case...)

 

[TheSkaFish]

I really hate the separation.  I feel like it completely writes off a person's potential.  Don't we believe that people can change and improve?  The separation says no, there are superior and inferior people, and you just have to hope you won the genetic lottery and if not you're ******, better hope you like alcohol because you're never going to escape the romantic/sexual gutter.  Especially for guys, you have to hope that you're already impressive enough for the girl you like in order to get her to admire you, otherwise she'll look down on you and that kicks you into "friends" aka she thinks you're inferior like some kind of peasant.  But it's hard to talk and act like a lord when your life has always reminded you that you're not one.  There are so many social areas you have to do correctly, and so many mistakes you have to avoid, in order to get it right.  There's always this talk about "being yourself" but certain personalities seem to work for *** and relationships and other personalities seem to always get stuck on friendship.  It really is a mating dance to show that you're competent, impressive, and thrilling, and all the while you have to show as little weakness as possible - mistakes, complaints, frustration, neediness are all signs of weakness and inferiority.  I think neediness is a big problem because if you're lonely, you're needy.  You want to get into a relationship and you want this loneliness to end, just like if you were starving, freezing, poor, in jail, sick, you just want the misery to end.  But if you say you want it to end, you're seen as weak, and it continues.  In this way, loneliness can be like quicksand or an undertow.    

And if you aren't really impressive, you have to know how to smooth-talk, you have to know how to "game" women.  And if smooth-talking or "game" isn't something you know how to do or are willing to do, once again, good luck, you'll need it.      

I don't know if I can ever become impressive, especially for an attractive woman to admire me and cause feelings of attraction.  I hope I can, but again, everything has always been hard for me and I've never been a natural at anything.  I've never really been able to beat other people at things.  It comes down to being able to be a valuable person, but I don't know if I can become one or if my genetics aren't good enough for that.  And I don't think I can ever learn "game".  I don't like it, and it's not natural to me either.  I just fundamentally don't get it.  I'd also like to have interactions where I can just enjoy getting to know the person instead of playing some kind of game of social one-upsmanship, some kind of social chess, maneuvering for advantage and dominance.  But that's another frustrating thing about it.  I get to know people slowly.  It's not a ******* agenda any more than "game" is, it's just how I work, how I get to know people.  I see if I can talk to them and hope that we can grow closer through conversation and enjoying each other's company.  I don't think it's a matter of not having enough in common or being able to talk because there are a lot of people I have little to nothing in common with and I don't see how I can talk to them well.  I think it's a matter of not being impressive enough.  My looks are okay I think, maybe they don't help me much but I don't think they hurt me that much either.  But I'm not popular and I will even admit that I'm not impressive, so I don't cause women to admire me and I really feel like that admiration is the key component to attraction.  I have things I want to be good at and I have things I'd like to do, but I don't know how to communicate that, I'm not good at anything and I don't have many stories.  I guess I need to work on that, if I even can.  I feel like there must be something I can do because the same guys usually win and the same guys usually lose.  I just hope there's some way that something I can do will matter.  Some days I feel like I'd almost sell my soul for attractive women to take me seriously for ******* once.

 

[ardour]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you. In makes it difficult to sympathize.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you.  In makes it difficult to sympathize.

I'm interested in women that make me interested and curious and could help me grow, who could show me things.  I'm interested in changing the way things go for me and breaking free from my old social role that I never wanted to play but just didn't know how to escape.  My problem is, women (and people for that matter) usually see me as warm but incompetent.  The warmth part allows us to talk and be on friendly terms, but the incompetent part keeps me from attracting them, and my cluelessness causes me to make an impression that I didn't mean to and wouldn't have if I knew it was wrong and I knew the right way to present myself instead.  Maybe these highly attractive women might not be interested in me as I am right now, but if I don't have to be like this and could be something else, then couldn't there be some way I could change into a more impressive, attractive person? Sometimes I feel like there has to be some way that I could learn to be attractive to them if I could just get on their level somehow, just for some reason I don't know how to articulate it or put the pieces together.  They're where I want to be but haven't been able to find the way.  I feel like if people can go from rags to riches, if there can be exceptions to rules, then maybe I can figure this out, because I just have to get unstuck, I need to do this for myself because I'm not content with being treated like this. Being looked down on and not taken seriously by someone that you want to see you in a good light is worse than being hated.  I see-saw from feeling like my genetics are just not good enough to feeling like there's got to be something more I can do. Maybe if I were reaching my full potential, they'd see me differently.

 

[Joturbo]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you.  In makes it difficult to sympathize.

I'm interested in women that make me interested and curious and could help me grow, who could show me things.  I'm interested in changing the way things go for me and breaking free from my old social role that I never wanted to play but just didn't know how to escape.  My problem is, women (and people for that matter) usually see me as warm but incompetent.  The warmth part allows us to talk and be on friendly terms, but the incompetent part keeps me from attracting them, and my cluelessness causes me to make an impression that I didn't mean to and wouldn't have if I knew it was wrong and I knew the right way to present myself instead.  Maybe these highly attractive women might not be interested in me as I am right now, but if I don't have to be like this and could be something else, then couldn't there be some way I could change into a more impressive, attractive person?  Sometimes I feel like there has to be some way that I could learn to be attractive to them if I could just get on their level somehow, just for some reason I don't know how to articulate it or put the pieces together.  They're where I want to be but haven't been able to find the way.  I feel like if people can go from rags to riches, if there can be exceptions to rules, then maybe I can figure this out, because I just have to get unstuck, I need to do this for myself because I'm not content with being treated like this.  Being looked down on and not taken seriously by someone that you want to see you in a good light is worse than being hated.  I see-saw from feeling like my genetics are just not good enough to feeling like there's got to be something more I can do.  Maybe if I were reaching my full potential, they'd see me differently.

Hi Skafish

First time I've read one of your posts but have to agree with ardour that your obsession with attractiveness leaps out at me.I always found that the brain and the way women talk and act is the most desirable thing .I love the challenge of a lady with spunk,mystery and attitude in spades not so much the way that they look. All women can show you things not just the pretty ones,ever thought of lowering your sights because just having a laugh.....experiencing the warmth of a women's embrace and being able to chat ten to the dozen is the most attractive thing of all.

 

[ardour]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you.  In makes it difficult to sympathize.

I'm interested in women that make me interested and curious and could help me grow, who could show me things.  I'm interested in changing the way things go for me and breaking free from my old social role that I never wanted to play but just didn't know how to escape.  My problem is, women (and people for that matter) usually see me as warm but incompetent.  The warmth part allows us to talk and be on friendly terms, but the incompetent part keeps me from attracting them, and my cluelessness causes me to make an impression that I didn't mean to and wouldn't have if I knew it was wrong and I knew the right way to present myself instead.  Maybe these highly attractive women might not be interested in me as I am right now, but if I don't have to be like this and could be something else, then couldn't there be some way I could change into a more impressive, attractive person?  Sometimes I feel like there has to be some way that I could learn to be attractive to them if I could just get on their level somehow, just for some reason I don't know how to articulate it or put the pieces together.  They're where I want to be but haven't been able to find the way.  I feel like if people can go from rags to riches, if there can be exceptions to rules, then maybe I can figure this out, because I just have to get unstuck, I need to do this for myself because I'm not content with being treated like this.  Being looked down on and not taken seriously by someone that you want to see you in a good light is worse than being hated.  I see-saw from feeling like my genetics are just not good enough to feeling like there's got to be something more I can do.  Maybe if I were reaching my full potential, they'd see me differently.

These 'social critiques' are too repetitive, reductive and  full of hyperbole. People have said this. I agree sometimes, same way I agree with Red Pill theory inasmuch as it identifies confidence and status as important, which is undeniable, but there's no room for idiosyncracies in here, so when faced with real individuals you have difficulty relating to them as such. That's the impression anyway.  

The truth is that until you have something akin to a career and life direction happening you won't be worthy of anyone, let alone the kind of person you're after.

 

[Paraiyar]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you.  In makes it difficult to sympathize.

I'm interested in women that make me interested and curious and could help me grow, who could show me things.  I'm interested in changing the way things go for me and breaking free from my old social role that I never wanted to play but just didn't know how to escape.  My problem is, women (and people for that matter) usually see me as warm but incompetent.  The warmth part allows us to talk and be on friendly terms, but the incompetent part keeps me from attracting them, and my cluelessness causes me to make an impression that I didn't mean to and wouldn't have if I knew it was wrong and I knew the right way to present myself instead.  Maybe these highly attractive women might not be interested in me as I am right now, but if I don't have to be like this and could be something else, then couldn't there be some way I could change into a more impressive, attractive person?  Sometimes I feel like there has to be some way that I could learn to be attractive to them if I could just get on their level somehow, just for some reason I don't know how to articulate it or put the pieces together.  They're where I want to be but haven't been able to find the way.  I feel like if people can go from rags to riches, if there can be exceptions to rules, then maybe I can figure this out, because I just have to get unstuck, I need to do this for myself because I'm not content with being treated like this.  Being looked down on and not taken seriously by someone that you want to see you in a good light is worse than being hated.  I see-saw from feeling like my genetics are just not good enough to feeling like there's got to be something more I can do.  Maybe if I were reaching my full potential, they'd see me differently.

You spend your whole time worrying about whether you're good enough and never actually do anything to improve. Seriously, snap out of this before you wind up 40 and stuck on the same loop...

 

[VanillaCreme]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you.  In makes it difficult to sympathize.

I'm interested in women that make me interested and curious and could help me grow, who could show me things.  I'm interested in changing the way things go for me and breaking free from my old social role that I never wanted to play but just didn't know how to escape.  My problem is, women (and people for that matter) usually see me as warm but incompetent.  The warmth part allows us to talk and be on friendly terms, but the incompetent part keeps me from attracting them, and my cluelessness causes me to make an impression that I didn't mean to and wouldn't have if I knew it was wrong and I knew the right way to present myself instead.  Maybe these highly attractive women might not be interested in me as I am right now, but if I don't have to be like this and could be something else, then couldn't there be some way I could change into a more impressive, attractive person?  Sometimes I feel like there has to be some way that I could learn to be attractive to them if I could just get on their level somehow, just for some reason I don't know how to articulate it or put the pieces together.  They're where I want to be but haven't been able to find the way.  I feel like if people can go from rags to riches, if there can be exceptions to rules, then maybe I can figure this out, because I just have to get unstuck, I need to do this for myself because I'm not content with being treated like this.  Being looked down on and not taken seriously by someone that you want to see you in a good light is worse than being hated.  I see-saw from feeling like my genetics are just not good enough to feeling like there's got to be something more I can do.  Maybe if I were reaching my full potential, they'd see me differently.

You spend your whole time worrying about whether you're good enough and never actually do anything to improve. Seriously, snap out of this before you wind up 40 and stuck on the same loop...

Not too long before that comes around. It's hard to believe that folks actually hold onto some, for lack of a better term, ridiculous ideas, then wonder why people back away.

 

[Rainbows]

I wish I didn't relate to some of that ^ as much as I do...but as has been pointed out numerous times, you're really only interested in women who are highly attractive, gregarious and/or 'special' in some way. Then you sulk over the reality that attractive, high social status people often have similar expectations and might not be particularly interested in someone like you.  In makes it difficult to sympathize.

I'm interested in women that make me interested and curious and could help me grow, who could show me things.  I'm interested in changing the way things go for me and breaking free from my old social role that I never wanted to play but just didn't know how to escape.  My problem is, women (and people for that matter) usually see me as warm but incompetent.  The warmth part allows us to talk and be on friendly terms, but the incompetent part keeps me from attracting them, and my cluelessness causes me to make an impression that I didn't mean to and wouldn't have if I knew it was wrong and I knew the right way to present myself instead.  Maybe these highly attractive women might not be interested in me as I am right now, but if I don't have to be like this and could be something else, then couldn't there be some way I could change into a more impressive, attractive person?  Sometimes I feel like there has to be some way that I could learn to be attractive to them if I could just get on their level somehow, just for some reason I don't know how to articulate it or put the pieces together.  They're where I want to be but haven't been able to find the way.  I feel like if people can go from rags to riches, if there can be exceptions to rules, then maybe I can figure this out, because I just have to get unstuck, I need to do this for myself because I'm not content with being treated like this.  Being looked down on and not taken seriously by someone that you want to see you in a good light is worse than being hated.  I see-saw from feeling like my genetics are just not good enough to feeling like there's got to be something more I can do.  Maybe if I were reaching my full potential, they'd see me differently.

You spend your whole time worrying about whether you're good enough and never actually do anything to improve. Seriously, snap out of this before you wind up 40 and stuck on the same loop...

Para, man of my dreams.

 

[Xpendable]

I do things, improvement gets ignored.

 

[Enpatsu No Shakugan]

Personalities matter in friendships, not gender.

 

[IncolaVacui]

It has nothing to do with gender dynamics, it's a matter of Humanism.
People everywhere of both sexes have problems and troubles.
Friends are supposed to be the people that you talk to about these things who try to help you sort them out or that they can confide in you.

It's easy to be friends with a woman without falling for a woman: When you listen to her talk about the problems she has had with her ex and/or with her significant other, you train yourself to identify any similar such traits in yourself and begin to rule yourself out as a possible potential mate. Or in plain English: You friend-zone yourself on purpose, because you aren't actually compatible despite your attraction to her. Trust me, that'll help kill it over time.

Now if you fall for a girl that you're not compatible with and you try to force it and she turns you down, you've gotta ask yourself if you have seratonin and dopamine blinders on from wanting her. If yes, than remove them. If no, then the next question you have to ask yourself will shake you to your foundations...

After that, the next question you have to ask yourself has nothing to do with the girl.
The next question you have to ask yourself is:
How well do you really know yourself?
Followed by: Do you even like yourself? And if not, have you ever considered that might be part of the problem you are having?

^ That's not me being sarcastic, those become sincere, honest questions you have to ask yourself at that point.

Women make great friends if you know how to talk to them properly as individuals (they're definitely not all the same...the first clue to this should be that as men: We're not all the same).

A lack of individualism only exists in our society because of our laziness as a society. It is easier to think in groups of margins and bulk because it requires less work for us to do so. And to a degree, that thinking is not entirely incorrect, however it's also not entirely correct either. If you're going to bulk count the bulk count, you should always work with relativism of round numbers for a basis as a general start and then adjust down from there into finite specifics if need be....

It's easy to be attracted to someone who's not actually a good suited compatible candidate for you. That's the most ironic part is that this specific thing is the fundamental mutual thing that is being suffered on both sides. People are completely, totally mismatched, all the time. Women will tell me that their man is an ******* and don't know why they put up with his ****, and men will tell me their women are out acting like attention whores and they have no idea why. It's mainly because most people don't think about themselves enough to consider compatibility. Instead, the process is more linear and kind of entirely driven by attraction, which is why things so often end up a disaster.