Incels - A Symptom of Sick Social System

[Unsigned]

Imagine being told you're a piece of **** and a loser all through your childhood and teens. Then at some point in young adulthood, you're expected to approach the opposite sex, prove your worth and deal with all the rejections, over and over again.

I'm sure many of them are pathetic, but the one thing they have in common with other men is years and years of bullying and exclusion. If you think it's easy to approach women after that then you're clueless and never went through it.

Yep.
Very easy to say "just have confidence, bro!" when you weren't treated lower than dirt and less than human for twelve straight years of your life...

 

[TheSkaFish]

I know that if, right now, I wanted to get a girl in my bed, by sundown it would be done. If not, 100% assured by the end of the weekend. She might not be say, Claudia Schiffer level, but I could. I decided to be picky. I think somewhere along there lies the problem. Some guys have put it in their heads thst say, that hot cheerleader over there, can, SHOULD date or sleep with them and when she doesn't, not only blames her, but her "group", aka women, for that.
Closest example I can think of would be "my toaster doesn't work, I tried finding one in a high class luxury store but they didn't have one I could afford, so now I hate all toasters and am never buying one again"....it's the mentality behind it that's the problematic, I think. It's counter productive. In some more extreme cases, clearly harmful.
Those guys need to get talked out of this...I dunno, dark place? It's kind of a self turning circle. I understand rejection breeds resentment, but some of them take it too far.

This is where I think society, the media, and other guys mess people up - the whole idea that the "hotter" girl is "better", or "more" of an experience, or whatever. Like the hot girl is a Lamborghini Aventador, and the more normal-looking girl is a base model Honda Civic. But it's not like that at all. People aren't cars. And I say this as someone who used to believe in that for a long time.

Society, the media, and other guys constantly bombard men with the message that the guy that gets the "hot" girl is the "winner", and the guy who goes for a more normal looking girl is the "loser" and must be "settling", must be muscled out of dating the hot girls, must be a b*tch that has to just take it in life - like there is no other reason why you would go for someone besides the hot girl, like how hot of a partner you can get equals your own worth as a person. But it's not true.

It doesn't matter how hot someone is if you're just chasing them for the sex, or for bragging rights to other guys, and you don't really find the person interesting, maybe even don't like them as a person at all, don't care about them, and they don't make you feel anything. The whole trophy wife/girlfriend (and for that matter probably the trophy husbands too) thing is overrated. You'll probably find that it's not that much fun, and quickly.

I've tried very hard to make it work with women I considered "hot", at least at the time.
Looking back though, it really wasn't that much fun. I knowingly let a lot of things go that I shouldn't have. And the conversations weren't even that interesting - not just because of me, but because of them. There was really only one, that truly was interesting, and I screwed up. The rest, I never should have gone for in the first place, but I told myself a story about them, and saw what I wanted to see instead of what was actually there.

Anyway, to use your example, the high end toaster, might just cost a lot and look fancy, and you can brag that you have a toaster made by such and such company, but at the end of the day, it doesn't do any good if it doesn't actually make good toast


I think the better message to guys is, be the best version of "you" that you can be, and go for someone who actually makes you feel real feelings - someone you like as a person, want to get to know, see yourself really caring about, and not just someone you lust after. For all you know, the hot girl could very well be boring.

 

[WillPower]

I had explained this in an earlier post on this thread.
I think people are confusing the term "incel", a portmanteau of INvoluntarily CELibate, with the very bizarre "incel movement".
Many guys are unwanted by females, and most of them harbor no ill will at all.

The people in the actual "incel movement" are the ones who group together on the internet, perhaps espouse violence, and make heroes out of people who have done very bad things, like Elliot Rodger. These guys actually are PROUD of being unwanted and try to ridicule and shame other "incels" who strive for female companionship through self improvement or other means. It's crazy.

Exactly, by definition, I'm an incel. But I'm not part of any movement or anything. I just haven't been able to get a girlfriend. I try to improve myself everyday though. I don't place blame on anyone or hold any sort of resentment.

 

[Cherubino]

I don't know how old you are, but you obviously don't have enough life experience

purity is better than experience

 

[NoxApex(N/A)]

Imagine being told you're a piece of **** and a loser all through your childhood and teens. Then at some point in young adulthood, you're expected to approach the opposite sex, prove your worth and deal with all the rejections, over and over again.

I'm sure many of them are pathetic, but the one thing they have in common with other men is years and years of bullying and exclusion. If you think it's easy to approach women after that then you're clueless and never went through it.

I got bullied a lot. A LOT when I was a kid.
That's a large part of the reason why I'm so ******* misanthropic as an adult.
I'm still in contact with at least 2 of my childhood bullies, these two brothers that live across the street from me.
The roles are reversed now though, and they're afraid of me instead.
There's a long, complicated reason as to why that is, but I don't feel like going into that because it's irrelevant.
The simple and short version is, I won exactly 1 fight in self defense against both of them at the same time once when we were kids.
As adults they ****** up their lives royally with over two dozen arrests and they're always drugged out on some hard drugs.
And I just don't want that around me as a risk factor. I have a clean record, I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[ardour]

I got bullied a lot. A LOT when I was a kid.
That's a large part of the reason why I'm so ******* misanthropic as an adult.
I'm still in contact with at least 2 of my childhood bullies, these two brothers that live across the street from me.
The roles are reversed now though, and they're afraid of me instead.
There's a long, complicated reason as to why that is, but I don't feel like going into that because it's irrelevant.
The simple and short version is, I won exactly 1 fight in self defense against both of them at the same time once when we were kids.
As adults they messed up their lives royally with over two dozen arrests and they're always drugged out on some hard drugs.
And I just don't want that around me as a risk factor. I have a clean record, I'd like to keep it that way.

Some of the worst bullies (nothing physical) went on the lead successful lives.

One is the Human Resources manager at a large multinational notorious for ripping off governments. Another owns a real estate firm, having sold dozens of leaky apartments. Another a senior project manager at a building corporation with zero previous qualifications (except real estate sales).

I wish they were broken down addicts, they'd at least be some schadenfreude there. Instead, attractive wives, children, "friends." (As much as they are capable of being anyone's friend.)

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I don't believe in that. Not really. I've seen too many times say, a gorgeous girl with an ugly man, or vice versa, to be able to believe in that.
I think those men gave up. At some point they got tired of trying and just started looking for someone, something, to blame. The violence or not depends more on the type of personality of the individual guy, but "involuntary"? That's the part I don't believe in.
I mean, I been single 15 years. I consider myself a very average person, good points, bad points, some attractive features, some not do much, some confidence, sometimes no confidence. Really just average.
Yet I know that if, right now, I wanted to get a girl in my bed, by sundown it would be done. If not, 100% assured by the end of the weekend. She might not be say, Claudia Schiffer level, but I could. I decided to be picky. I think somewhere along there lies the problem. Some guys have put it in their heads thst say, that hot cheerleader over there, can, SHOULD date or sleep with them and when she doesn't, not only blames her, but her "group", aka women, for that.

That's great for you and all, but I'm here to say that yes, sometimes there are just men out there that women are not interested in. I'm 31 years old, and I can 100% testify to that. I'm employed, renting, in shape, I'm very social and confident, yet.... they just don't want to know.

Case in point, a couple days ago I went speed dating. I was dressed nice, smelled good, felt great. Conversations were flowing, even in the interval and afterwards. The women were all smiles and hugs and "lovely to meet you"s etc. The following day when I get my results back, 9 out of 10 ticked 'no' for me. It's not even a case of me lowering my standards, it's a case of an overwhelming majority of women saying "hell no!"

 

[CenotaphGirl]

Seriously are you guys trolling ? Theres no way people have this much trouble, it's unheard of, even my brothers nerdy mates have more luck than this.

 

[M_also_lonely]

Imagine being told you're a piece of honeysuckle and a loser all through your childhood and teens. Then at some point in young adulthood, you're expected to approach the opposite sex, prove your worth and deal with all the rejections, over and over again.

I'm sure many of them are pathetic, but the one thing they have in common with other men is years and years of bullying and exclusion. If you think it's easy to approach women after that then you're clueless and never went through it.

Yes. At some point, with a lot of personal transformation, one might even get some positive results, but its extremely difficult to show any admiration after all the rejections and trash like treatment that happened.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Seriously are you guys trolling ? Theres no way people have this much trouble, it's unheard of, even my brothers nerdy mates have more luck than this.

100% honest.

Like I said, it's very hard to get solid advice from anyone when they don't believe me. It's like if you had a friend who called you up asking for help with their ghost problem, if you fundamentally don't believe the premise of their question, there's very little you're going to suggest.
And sure, it does suck when I see much worse guys doing better than me. Turn on daytime trash TV, there's a segment about a crackhead with 3 teeth, doing a lie detector because he's cheated on his girlfriend with her best friend. I'm sitting here wondering where I'm going wrong.

 

[user 164061]

100% honest.

Like I said, it's very hard to get solid advice from anyone when they don't believe me. It's like if you had a friend who called you up asking for help with their ghost problem, if you fundamentally don't believe the premise of their question, there's very little you're going to suggest.
And sure, it does suck when I see much worse guys doing better than me. Turn on daytime trash TV, there's a segment about a crackhead with 3 teeth, doing a lie detector because he's cheated on his girlfriend with her best friend. I'm sitting here wondering where I'm going wrong.

Jeremy Kyle was some insane banter. Maybe if you jingle some crack they'll date you

 

[CenotaphGirl]

100% honest.

Like I said, it's very hard to get solid advice from anyone when they don't believe me. It's like if you had a friend who called you up asking for help with their ghost problem, if you fundamentally don't believe the premise of their question, there's very little you're going to suggest.
And sure, it does suck when I see much worse guys doing better than me. Turn on daytime trash TV, there's a segment about a crackhead with 3 teeth, doing a lie detector because he's cheated on his girlfriend with her best friend. I'm sitting here wondering where I'm going wrong.

Maybe you have no... edge... you're just too smooth, you know? need a little roughness about ya, that gets us ladies interested, according to data anyway.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Jeremy Kyle was some insane banter. Maybe if you jingle some crack they'll date you

For real though, didn't John Merrick get married in his 20s?

When The Elephant Man had a verifiably more successful love life than you, you've got to sit yourself down and ask yourself some questions.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Maybe you have no... edge... you're just too smooth, you know? need a little roughness about ya, that gets us ladies interested, according to data anyway.

I mean, I'm not starting fights over here, but I figured a shaved head and a muscular frame would do some of the heavy lifting for me. I work in mechanics, which I thought would put me over as a masculine profession.

Most of my male friends aren't particularly 'edgy', but have always done ok.

 

[user 139760]

That's great for you and all, but I'm here to say that yes, sometimes there are just men out there that women are not interested in. I'm 31 years old, and I can 100% testify to that. I'm employed, renting, in shape, I'm very social and confident, yet.... they just don't want to know.

Case in point, a couple days ago I went speed dating. I was dressed nice, smelled good, felt great. Conversations were flowing, even in the interval and afterwards. The women were all smiles and hugs and "lovely to meet you"s etc. The following day when I get my results back, 9 out of 10 ticked 'no' for me. It's not even a case of me lowering my standards, it's a case of an overwhelming majority of women saying "hell no!"

Honestly, there's so many factors that come into this, I'd be hard pressed to disagree, even if it hasn't been my experience. Do you have any idea, too, how little 10 women are versus the general population at large? It's not a safe statistical representation and it varies, by location, education, age, culture and a myriad of factors. Of course looks and genetics plays a part, but it isn't the end all be all hill to die for either, is all I'm saying. No one, I think, should just stop at "I'm not attractive" and die there without ever trying again, because it's just not true. It also takes time, luck, etc. It's like starting you're own company; you can't throw a fit, three years in, saying "Why am I not rich? I'm doing everything right". For some it takes 6 months. Others 20 years. Others it's fast, others a slow build.
I was single for some time, then was in relationships straight with 3 different girls over a span of 10 years, almost non stop. Been single since then, by choice. Trust me, if I can attract someone, anyone can. If you adopt a defeatist attitude, you're not doing yourself any favors, is all I mean.

 

[user 164061]

For real though, didn't John Merrick get married in his 20s?

When The Elephant Man had a verifiably more successful love life than you, you've got to sit yourself down and ask yourself some questions.

I think he did? But he didn't even see 30 and had a very hideous deformity so at this point you are winning

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

Honestly, there's so many factors that come into this, I'd be hard pressed to disagree, even if it hasn't been my experience. Do you have any idea, too, how little 10 women are versus the general population at large? It's not a safe statistical representation and it varies, by location, education, age, culture and a myriad of factors. Of course looks and genetics plays a part, but it isn't the end all be all hill to die for either, is all I'm saying. No one, I think, should just stop at "I'm not attractive" and die there without ever trying again, because it's just not true. It also takes time, luck, etc. It's like starting you're own company; you can't throw a fit, three years in, saying "Why am I not rich? I'm doing everything right". For some it takes 6 months. Others 20 years. Others it's fast, others a slow build.
I was single for some time, then was in relationships straight with 3 different girls over a span of 10 years, almost non stop. Been single since then, by choice. Trust me, if I can attract someone, anyone can. If you adopt a defeatist attitude, you're not doing yourself any favors, is all I mean.

I get what you're saying, and for the record I'm not 'giving up' per se, just acknowledging that I'm certainly playing this game on "Hard Mode", watching everyone else breeze through on "Easy". I don't feel I'm owed anything, or that by existing I must 'deserve' the prize, but it is soul crushing to be doing everything I believe to be correct: move out, get a decent job, make friends, take up hobbies, get in shape; and still get nowhere, whereas there are men who don't work and live with their parents that get more attention from women.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I think he did? But he didn't even see 30 and had a very hideous deformity so at this point you are winning

So I can live to the ripe old age of 90, ugly and unwanted? It sounds dramatic but I think dying in my 30s with the love of my life sounds preferable.

 

[user 164061]

So I can live to the ripe old age of 90, ugly and unwanted? It sounds dramatic but I think dying in my 30s with the love of my life sounds preferable.

Well i have come to terms with being alone forever myself. So i don't even dwell on it remotely anymore to be honest. But obviously we are different in that regard.

 

[user 139760]

I get what you're saying, and for the record I'm not 'giving up' per se, just acknowledging that I'm certainly playing this game on "Hard Mode", watching everyone else breeze through on "Easy". I don't feel I'm owed anything, or that by existing I must 'deserve' the prize, but it is soul crushing to be doing everything I believe to be correct: move out, get a decent job, make friends, take up hobbies, get in shape; and still get nowhere, whereas there are men who don't work and live with their parents that get more attention from women.

I also think technology has kind of fudged our minds; we get told a LOT of things, get the soul crushing (tried recently lol) experience of dating apps and their ways designed to MAKE you pay. It was a lot easier in the 90's mid 2000's because we were all stupider and more social.I'd get accosted by a girl on the bus on occasion and we'd just chat, or in a cafe ir what not. Now everyone has their noses on their phones. Everyone gets RXACTLY what they want when they want it, the way they want it. That's made up. Human experience is way different.
Always said the kids nowadays have it harder than the Boomers did. No offense to Boomers.