Men - do you feel yourself becoming an 'incel'?

[TheSkaFish]

So, I've posted here a fair bit over the last year. I believe I'm a fairly 'average' guy, am in good physical shape, socially confident, I have hobbies and interests and earn a decent living. Nothing spectacular, nothing terrible. Problem is, I've never had a girlfriend, and very extremely rarely anybody interested, the chief reason given to me is "too ugly". I've done everything I can do to negate this, getting in shape, taking care of my appearance etc, but at a certain level we're sort of stuck the the faces god gave us.

I really never thought of myself as an 'incel', though I am I suppose by definition "involuntary celibate" which is the actual meaning of the term, I never bought into the 'hating women' aspect of it. I don't hate women, it's not their fault that I'm ugly, sure it wouldn't hurt to take a chance on me, but them's the breaks I guess. Never bothered anyone, I've asked people out and respected their choice once they said no.

Recently, I am finding myself with, I suppose, less sympathy for a lot of women in my social circles. People who've spurned me in favour of chasing hot guys, then explode on social media when it inevitably goes wrong, moaning how there are no good men. There are good men, but some of them look like they fell off an ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. If you choose to ignore the objectively kind, funny, athletic individual in favour of the guy whose only achievement is great genetics and honeysuckle tattoos, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for you. Same with men, I suppose; had a guy come onto the scene, and within 2 months he's going out with one of the few attractive single women available. 6 months later she dumps him and he's moping around unhappy, and I'm expected to feel bad for him. Dude came with almost zero social skills or abilities, and was banging a hot blonde for 6 months, and given another month he'll likely be doing it again.

Does anyone else worry they're becoming an incel?

I don't really worry about becoming an incel, necessarily. I've looked at the things that people say who claim to be incels, and it isn't really a match for what I think and feel.

I'm not really worried about my looks. In fact, some days I dare to think I'm somewhat good-looking, especially if I could get some muscle. What I'm more worried about, is inability to learn anything to make me successful and interesting, and therefore being unable to play the male gender role, and unable to impress anyone. The more I look over my life, the more I realize I've always felt this way and it's always been the source of my problems in life. I'm afraid it is as genetic as you fear your looks are. But I guess that's my issue.

Could it be that you're going for really shallow women? I used to think that I could "save" them from the d-bag guys. Then eventually, I realized that these women were just the female counterpart to those guys. They didn't want to be "saved". Those are the guys they're compatible with because they think and feel the same way. I say stop caring about them, let them play their stupid games with each other, and don't stress out about it.

 

[FlynnRyder]

Right, for the record I've got no confidence issues talking to women, asking people out etc, my issue more is that because of the 100% rejection rate, I'm finding I have less sympathy/empathy for women (in regards to relationship issues) and that's definitely not a good sign.

Don't feel so bad, you can only be told to take a hike so many times, before you begin to feel resentful in general. it's natural.
what's not natural is the toxic attitudes, misogyny, death threats and such that have been associated with the incel community. thats wrong.
but us rejects should have a space we can come together, commune and say, "Doesn't this situation suck?" without being demonized for it.

 

[FlynnRyder]

And western society at large was much better off for this.

Again...just IMO.

Dear god, I just can't even... where do I even begin?

 

[TheRealCallie]

what's not natural is the toxic attitudes, misogyny, death threats and such that have been associated with the incel community. thats wrong.

Literally every group has this happen to them. BLM, me too, politics, religion, literally every group.

The bad apples, which you have to know are out there, ruin it for everyone. Doesn't matter how many there are, they go viral. Hell there are those type of incels here on this forum that just bash every woman on the planet whether they've met them or not and call themselves misogynists.

Does rejection suck? Yes, of course. Does constant rejection tear you down? Damn straight it does. But there is someone out there for you. The world is a big place. But if you let negativity rule you, you are unlikely to ever have a positive outcome.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I don't really worry about becoming an incel, necessarily. I've looked at the things that people say who claim to be incels, and it isn't really a match for what I think and feel.

I'm not really worried about my looks. In fact, some days I dare to think I'm somewhat good-looking, especially if I could get some muscle. What I'm more worried about, is inability to learn anything to make me successful and interesting, and therefore being unable to play the male gender role, and unable to impress anyone. The more I look over my life, the more I realize I've always felt this way and it's always been the source of my problems in life. I'm afraid it is as genetic as you fear your looks are. But I guess that's my issue.

Could it be that you're going for really shallow women? I used to think that I could "save" them from the d-bag guys. Then eventually, I realized that these women were just the female counterpart to those guys. They didn't want to be "saved". Those are the guys they're compatible with because they think and feel the same way. I say stop caring about them, let them play their stupid games with each other, and don't stress out about it.

That's certainly an interesting one for you, what exactly about yourself do you think is insufficiently masculine to compete in today's dating game?

Really, as society becomes more gender-neutral, a man no longer has to be the burly protector or the breadwinner to do well for himself, I know several guys who really don't fit many definitions of "manly" that do ok. Would you be looking to impress people with physicality, socially, with status? I'm curious here.

As for myself, I wouldn't say that women are shallow necessarily, but like most people they're looking for "The Full Package", as in someone who is; good looking, kind, funny, employed, responsible. Now, if you want someone who ticks all 5 of those boxes, and from a distance you can tell that a guy is definitely not ticking 1, I find people are more likely to move on to someone who is attractive, and then go deeper to find out if they tick the other 4 boxes as well.

 

[TheSkaFish]

That's certainly an interesting one for you, what exactly about yourself do you think is insufficiently masculine to compete in today's dating game?

Really, as society becomes more gender-neutral, a man no longer has to be the burly protector or the breadwinner to do well for himself, I know several guys who really don't fit many definitions of "manly" that do ok. Would you be looking to impress people with physicality, socially, with status? I'm curious here.

As for myself, I wouldn't say that women are shallow necessarily, but like most people they're looking for "The Full Package", as in someone who is; good looking, kind, funny, employed, responsible. Now, if you want someone who ticks all 5 of those boxes, and from a distance you can tell that a guy is definitely not ticking 1, I find people are more likely to move on to someone who is attractive, and then go deeper to find out if they tick the other 4 boxes as well.

I think it's because I've struggled with the protector/provider role, with being fun/interesting/entertaining, and with self-esteem due to feeling like I lack inborn talent. This makes it hard for me to be interested in anything. I haven't really been happy with my life - parts of it here and there, maybe, but not overall. Out of "The Full Package" you listed, the only one I have consistently is "kind".

To be more masculine, I think I need to be more skilled. But I've always struggled with that due to thinking that I'm not a "skills person". When I look back on my life I realize that was always the reason I struggled socially. If I was better at things, I could have been a "type" of person, and been more confident. You can't be "cool" if you're not good at things, especially as a man, and especially if you don't come from money.

The status thing is more for me, than with women. It's so that I can have an at least OK amount of pride and self-esteem, through feeling capable and competent. I've had a lot of struggles with humiliation/feeling inferior, so pride is my most important value. Once I can get pride, I can be happier, and enjoy life more.

What am I looking to impress a woman with? Mostly being interesting, being able to talk. Getting them to feel something for me. When it comes to what I'm looking for, for me it's someone interesting/that I like talking to, someone that makes me feel good to be around them, and someone I care about. I find that looks can grow on me. Someone whose looks I might not notice at first, I've noticed later. Or just liking/caring about them as a person makes me like their looks more. I'm looking more for romantic companionship than anything else.

As far as the women being shallow, I didn't mean they all are. I just meant maybe the ones are, in your scene, that you asked out earlier.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

I think it's because I've struggled with the protector/provider role, with being fun/interesting/entertaining, and with self-esteem due to feeling like I lack inborn talent. This makes it hard for me to be interested in anything. I haven't really been happy with my life - parts of it here and there, maybe, but not overall. Out of "The Full Package" you listed, the only one I have consistently is "kind".

To be more masculine, I think I need to be more skilled. But I've always struggled with that due to thinking that I'm not a "skills person". When I look back on my life I realize that was always the reason I struggled socially. If I was better at things, I could have been a "type" of person, and been more confident. You can't be "cool" if you're not good at things, especially as a man, and especially if you don't come from money.

The status thing is more for me, than with women. It's so that I can have an at least OK amount of pride and self-esteem, through feeling capable and competent. I've had a lot of struggles with humiliation/feeling inferior, so pride is my most important value. Once I can get pride, I can be happier, and enjoy life more.

What am I looking to impress a woman with? Mostly being interesting, being able to talk. Getting them to feel something for me. When it comes to what I'm looking for, for me it's someone interesting/that I like talking to, someone that makes me feel good to be around them, and someone I care about. I find that looks can grow on me. Someone whose looks I might not notice at first, I've noticed later. Or just liking/caring about them as a person makes me like their looks more. I'm looking more for romantic companionship than anything else.

As far as the women being shallow, I didn't mean they all are. I just meant maybe the ones are, in your scene, that you asked out earlier.

I'm sure we've had this before, but there really is no such thing as 'talent' as in a magical gift you're born with. Tiger Woods isn't Tiger Woods because he's naturally better at golf than anyone, he's like that because his dad (also a pro golfer) put a golf club in his hands at 18 months old. We see the end result of hard work, but we never see the dedication, the sacrifice, or indeed the actual hard work itself. If Tiger did not have that father and that upbringing, he'd be nobody, there's nothing special about his genetic makeup that makes him the best golfer. Apply that to literally every athlete, singer, actor, politician, you name it. Was Taylor Swift plucked out of nowhere for her All-American country charm? Absolutely not, her dad bought her a record deal by investing $300,000 in the label. That's not to say she didn't work hard and apply herself, but somewhere out there is another pretty blonde with an amazing voice who didn't have rich parents.

So you haven't found something you're good at? Is that it, or have you not thrown enough hours at one thing? Granted, there is such a thing as a slight 'edge', some people find rythmn easier than others, others have an easier time with logic based puzzles, but it's all learned skills if you actually apply yourself. So what exactly are these masculine skills you lack the talent for? This isn't rhetorical, I'm actually asking here. Fixing things, can be taught and learned. I'm also unsure why you're talking in the past tense of "could have been" a type of person, when you're alive here and now. Spend 20mins a day skipping rope for 2 months, and I guarantee you'll be better at it than you are now. Or sit there whinging about how you failed that one time in 2006 so I guess you're just never going to jump a rope.

You say you want pride? What exactly are you proud of? Again, not a trick question here. Everyone has redeeming aspects, it's up to you to find yours that you are proud of, and look to what's next that would give you a sense of achievement. If you have nothing to be proud of, pride's not exactly going to be knocking on your door with it's bags packed.

 

[TheRealCallie]

I'm sure we've had this before, but there really is no such thing as 'talent' as in a magical gift you're born with. Tiger Woods isn't Tiger Woods because he's naturally better at golf than anyone, he's like that because his dad (also a pro golfer) put a golf club in his hands at 18 months old. We see the end result of hard work, but we never see the dedication, the sacrifice, or indeed the actual hard work itself. If Tiger did not have that father and that upbringing, he'd be nobody, there's nothing special about his genetic makeup that makes him the best golfer. Apply that to literally every athlete, singer, actor, politician, you name it. Was Taylor Swift plucked out of nowhere for her All-American country charm? Absolutely not, her dad bought her a record deal by investing $300,000 in the label. That's not to say she didn't work hard and apply herself, but somewhere out there is another pretty blonde with an amazing voice who didn't have rich parents.

So you haven't found something you're good at? Is that it, or have you not thrown enough hours at one thing? Granted, there is such a thing as a slight 'edge', some people find rythmn easier than others, others have an easier time with logic based puzzles, but it's all learned skills if you actually apply yourself. So what exactly are these masculine skills you lack the talent for? This isn't rhetorical, I'm actually asking here. Fixing things, can be taught and learned. I'm also unsure why you're talking in the past tense of "could have been" a type of person, when you're alive here and now. Spend 20mins a day skipping rope for 2 months, and I guarantee you'll be better at it than you are now. Or sit there whinging about how you failed that one time in 2006 so I guess you're just never going to jump a rope.

You say you want pride? What exactly are you proud of? Again, not a trick question here. Everyone has redeeming aspects, it's up to you to find yours that you are proud of, and look to what's next that would give you a sense of achievement. If you have nothing to be proud of, pride's not exactly going to be knocking on your door with it's bags packed.

I agree with this, but there are exceptions, in the form of prodigies. But, that said, even those people have to work hard to maintain their status.

Now I'm not about to call my son a prodigy. He isn't. But, this is what I know from him. He was reading and writing before his peers. He whizzed through elementary and high school without having to study. But because he never learned how to study, he struggled in college. He felt stupid if he didn't automatically know everything. Does that mean he is stupid and a failure? No, of course not, he just didn't apply himself and do what he had to do to maintain his Wizkid status. Don't get me wrong, he made it through college and graduated with two degrees, but he graduated as only an average student.

 

[Unsigned]

Tiger Woods isn't Tiger Woods because he's naturally better at golf than anyone, he's like that because his dad (also a pro golfer) put a golf club in his hands at 18 months old.

It was you and I who had this discussion/disagreement.
I would bet Tiger's eyesite is off the charts. On par with Ted Williams.
And his hand/eye coordination (however that would be measured) is probably 1 in 10 million.

I won't keep pressing this, but I disagree vehemently.
Genetics matters a great deal.
Yes, without hard work people won't achieve the greatest heights.
And without superstar genetics (which is almost all of us) with hard work we can achieve a decent life.
But do you really believe anyone could be Beethoven, or Mozart, or Barry Sanders, or Einstein without genetics?
Or even be a benchwarmer on an NHL team? Or even be able to get a PhD in Physics? With just hard work???

All IMO, of course.


EDIT:
https://www.news24.com/news24/eyes-of-the-tiger-20040319

OK, apparently Tiger was not born with great vision...

I still think genetics is important though. Not everything, but very important.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

It was you and I who had this discussion/disagreement.
I would bet Tiger's eyesite is off the charts. On par with Ted Williams.
And his hand/eye coordination (however that would be measured) is probably 1 in 10 million.

I won't keep pressing this, but I disagree vehemently.
Genetics matters a great deal.
Yes, without hard work people won't achieve the greatest heights.
And without superstar genetics (which is almost all of us) with hard work we can achieve a decent life.
But do you really believe anyone could be Beethoven, or Mozart, or Barry Sanders, or Einstein without genetics?
Or even be a benchwarmer on an NHL team? Or even be able to get a PhD in Physics? With just hard work???

All IMO, of course.


EDIT:
https://www.news24.com/news24/eyes-of-the-tiger-20040319

OK, apparently Tiger was not born with great vision...

I still think genetics is important though. Not everything, but very important.

Absolutely not.

Hand/eye coordination is a learned skill. We all start with a baseline of next to zero, we're flailing babies, and it is developed over time. Children who take up sports and physical activities have far better coordination than those who do not, you might say that being forced to practice for golf tournaments when you're not even 2 would do it.

You might have a very slight genetic predisposition, but it pales in comparison to somebody with no genetic predisposition and 10,000 hours of practice, the GOATs are rare examples of a slight genetic advantage meeting the discipline and hard work.

Literally, show me any successful person who achieved purely off the back of their genetics and not hard work? Please, I'll wait. In the meantime, the list of people with precisely zero genetic advantage but achieved anyway is staggering.

And as for the eyesight thing, that's literally just something you made up in an attempt to prove your point, but I commend you for owning up to not being an actual thing.

It's a pathetic victim mentality that allows people to console themselves by living in the fantasy that if they've not done well in life, it's not their fault, they just haven't got the "right genetics".

 

[Unsigned]

Literally, show me any successful person who achieved purely off the back of their genetics and not hard work?

You completely misunderstood what I said:

Genetics matters a great deal.
Yes, without hard work people won't achieve the greatest heights.

Of course hard work is necessary. There are loads of gifted people who squandered there natural born abilities, either in athletics or intellectually.

It's a pathetic victim mentality that allows people to console themselves by living in the fantasy that if they've not done well in life, it's not their fault, they just haven't got the "right genetics".

Again, you misunderstood me:

And without superstar genetics (which is almost all of us) with hard work we can achieve a decent life.

You seem to think when I mention genetics being a factor, that I think it is the ONLY factor.
I never said that nor have I ever believed it.
I'm no Edsger Dijkstra, but I worked hard at developing my skills and was a good enough computer programmer to be "upper middle class/well off" since my 20s. If I were wallowing in self pity for not being born with Dijkstra's genetics/IQ, I never would have even tried.
Acknowledging that genetics plays a role is very different than using as an excuse to never try or work hard.

I've encountered this attitude before. Even from friends. Some people are very reluctant to admit genetics plays ANY role. And the reason is always the same -- the one you gave. "It gives people an excuse not to try". I think that is misguided.
I had an argument a few years ago with a good friend who tried to say that most anyone could be built like Schwarzenegger if they only did all the same things he did. Complete nonsense. He was BORN with a mesomorphic body type with the propensity to put on great muscle mass. Worked his A$$ off yes! But still, his genetics gave him the foundation to build upon. Now, can a skinny ectomorph work hard and look great? Of course! But he will never be Arnold.

 

[user 135671]

Literally, show me any successful person who achieved purely off the back of their genetics and not hard work? Please, I'll wait. In the meantime, the list of people with precisely zero genetic advantage but achieved anyway is staggering.

Bang on man. People won't notice the late nights, the early mornings, the self doubt, the failures, the obstacles, the risks taken, the money invested.

They will only see your results and call you lucky. Don't expect them to understand.

 

[wwwocls]

So, I've posted here a fair bit over the last year. I believe I'm a fairly 'average' guy, am in good physical shape, socially confident, I have hobbies and interests and earn a decent living. Nothing spectacular, nothing terrible. Problem is, I've never had a girlfriend, and very extremely rarely anybody interested, the chief reason given to me is "too ugly". I've done everything I can do to negate this, getting in shape, taking care of my appearance etc, but at a certain level we're sort of stuck the the faces god gave us.

I really never thought of myself as an 'incel', though I am I suppose by definition "involuntary celibate" which is the actual meaning of the term, I never bought into the 'hating women' aspect of it. I don't hate women, it's not their fault that I'm ugly, sure it wouldn't hurt to take a chance on me, but them's the breaks I guess. Never bothered anyone, I've asked people out and respected their choice once they said no.

Recently, I am finding myself with, I suppose, less sympathy for a lot of women in my social circles. People who've spurned me in favour of chasing hot guys, then explode on social media when it inevitably goes wrong, moaning how there are no good men. There are good men, but some of them look like they fell off an ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. If you choose to ignore the objectively kind, funny, athletic individual in favour of the guy whose only achievement is great genetics and honeysuckle tattoos, I really don't have a lot of sympathy for you. Same with men, I suppose; had a guy come onto the scene, and within 2 months he's going out with one of the few attractive single women available. 6 months later she dumps him and he's moping around unhappy, and I'm expected to feel bad for him. Dude came with almost zero social skills or abilities, and was banging a hot blonde for 6 months, and given another month he'll likely be doing it again.

Does anyone else worry they're becoming an incel?

"Incel" is a hate term people (mostly feminists) use to hate on single men they fear. It's bigoted.

 

[FlynnRyder]

"Incel" is a hate term people (mostly feminists) use to hate on single men they fear. It's bigoted.

you clearly haven't been paying attention if you think feminists came up with the term incel, to label those they are afraid of. No. Just No.
I will say this, feminist response to the incel phenomenon, which is to combat their toxicity with their own brand of toxicity, is part of the reason their ranks continue to swell day by day.
It could have lead to a conversation about loneliness, what it does to our mental health, our self esteem, how sexual prowess is used to manipulate our society into a very toxic culture, and so many other different discussion.
It could have lead to movements to push back against the limitations that society has put on us as a whole to create these conditions.
Instead, you have a discourse where lonely men resent women in general for not accepting them as romantic partners, and said women respond by affirming these perceived inadequacies.
"Of course you can't get laid, why would any of US want any of YOU?"
these are the same people who have created all types of acceptance movements for the groups they want to virtue signal to, they have body positivity movements (which only extend to women naturally), they have acceptance movements for the disables, the lgtbq+ and others, and yet, if you are a cisgendered hetero male, and you're too fat/short/skinny/ugly/bad with social cues/dont naturally display the signals that indicate "confidence," well hey, go kick rocks.

 

[wwwocls]

you clearly haven't been paying attention if you think feminists came up with the term incel, to label those they are afraid of. No. Just No.
I will say this, feminist response to the incel phenomenon, which is to combat their toxicity with their own brand of toxicity, is part of the reason their ranks continue to swell day by day.
It could have lead to a conversation about loneliness, what it does to our mental health, our self esteem, how sexual prowess is used to manipulate our society into a very toxic culture, and so many other different discussion.
It could have lead to movements to push back against the limitations that society has put on us as a whole to create these conditions.
Instead, you have a discourse where lonely men resent women in general for not accepting them as romantic partners, and said women respond by affirming these perceived inadequacies.
"Of course you can't get laid, why would any of US want any of YOU?"
these are the same people who have created all types of acceptance movements for the groups they want to virtue signal to, they have body positivity movements (which only extend to women naturally), they have acceptance movements for the disables, the lgtbq+ and others, and yet, if you are a cisgendered hetero male, and you're too fat/short/skinny/ugly/bad with social cues/dont naturally display the signals that indicate "confidence," well hey, go kick rocks.

You're assuming feminists are responding to toxic men. You haven't figured out a lot of good men are responding to toxic women. I know this from experience.

 

[TheRealCallie]

you clearly haven't been paying attention if you think feminists came up with the term incel, to label those they are afraid of. No. Just No.
I will say this, feminist response to the incel phenomenon, which is to combat their toxicity with their own brand of toxicity, is part of the reason their ranks continue to swell day by day.
It could have lead to a conversation about loneliness, what it does to our mental health, our self esteem, how sexual prowess is used to manipulate our society into a very toxic culture, and so many other different discussion.
It could have lead to movements to push back against the limitations that society has put on us as a whole to create these conditions.
Instead, you have a discourse where lonely men resent women in general for not accepting them as romantic partners, and said women respond by affirming these perceived inadequacies.
"Of course you can't get laid, why would any of US want any of YOU?"
these are the same people who have created all types of acceptance movements for the groups they want to virtue signal to, they have body positivity movements (which only extend to women naturally), they have acceptance movements for the disables, the lgtbq+ and others, and yet, if you are a cisgendered hetero male, and you're too fat/short/skinny/ugly/bad with social cues/dont naturally display the signals that indicate "confidence," well hey, go kick rocks.

So, what you just said here is that women are to blame?

But it sounds to me....and I know someone said this previously....that you are only talking to shallow women. However, I will say this for us evil women out there. We don't generally like men who hate women and yes, at least a tiny bit of confidence is required....for pretty much anything in life. Stop worrying about what society wants. Stop worrying about what the shallow women who don't want you want. Start worrying about yourself and coming to terms with who you are, start accepting yourself, start changing the things you don't like about yourself so YOU feel like yourself. THAT is the problem, not other people. How can anyone else accept you if you don't? That is pretty much true in all areas of life, not just dating.

 

[Unsigned]

you clearly haven't been paying attention if you think feminists came up with the term incel, to label those they are afraid of. No. Just No.
I will say this, feminist response to the incel phenomenon, which is to combat their toxicity with their own brand of toxicity, is part of the reason their ranks continue to swell day by day.
It could have lead to a conversation about loneliness, what it does to our mental health, our self esteem, how sexual prowess is used to manipulate our society into a very toxic culture, and so many other different discussion.
It could have lead to movements to push back against the limitations that society has put on us as a whole to create these conditions.
Instead, you have a discourse where lonely men resent women in general for not accepting them as romantic partners, and said women respond by affirming these perceived inadequacies.
"Of course you can't get laid, why would any of US want any of YOU?"
these are the same people who have created all types of acceptance movements for the groups they want to virtue signal to, they have body positivity movements (which only extend to women naturally), they have acceptance movements for the disables, the lgtbq+ and others, and yet, if you are a cisgendered hetero male, and you're too fat/short/skinny/ugly/bad with social cues/dont naturally display the signals that indicate "confidence," well hey, go kick rocks.

Are you male or female?
I cannot tell from your postings here.
I can only speak from my own experience.
I am 6'1", 180lbs, in shape and have been working out since I was a teen.
I was born a genetic ectomorph.
Was 6'1" 115lbs when I graduated HS.
Did not significantly gain weight until I was 20 years old.
Was treated LOWER THAN DIRT AND LESS THAN HUMAN by girls in HS and college.
So yeah...I am a "straight white male" with an axe to grind.
I was always in the upper 95th percentile in standardized tests.
So I always displayed the characteristics of a good provider.
And my current Net Worth is in the same percentile.
Would be MUCH HIGHER if not for the fact that in order to relieve myself with the females who of of the attractiveness level I require (yes, require) I had to PAY FOR. If I had met a thin, petite girl with a very pretty face in college that wanted to pair off with me, I would be a 1%er. OK, I didn't have that. And even after spending 7 figures on girls that didn't care if I live or die, I am still a 5%er. Yay for me.

Feminism is DESTROYING the West. DESTROYING it.
And what will you have when it's gone???
Saudi F-ing Arabia.
That's what.
Do you want that???
Would you rather have gentleman that protect women?
Or savages that beat them?
Serious question.
Because those are your only two choices.

 

[MysteriousTelephone]

But it sounds to me....and I know someone said this previously....that you are only talking to shallow women. However, I will say this for us evil women out there. We don't generally like men who hate women and yes, at least a tiny bit of confidence is required....for pretty much anything in life. Stop worrying about what society wants. Stop worrying about what the shallow women who don't want you want. Start worrying about yourself and coming to terms with who you are, start accepting yourself, start changing the things you don't like about yourself so YOU feel like yourself. THAT is the problem, not other people. How can anyone else accept you if you don't? That is pretty much true in all areas of life, not just dating.

I understand it's hard to take my word for it, but I honestly don't believe I'm only talking to shallow women, they really are from all different walks of life with different personalities and mindsets, personally I just believe that women wanting a man who embodies "The Full Package" includes being good-looking, that visually you can figure out very early on if someone's not meeting your criteria. I don't hate women, or consider them evil, I'm just worried now that I have less empathy than I used to, which isn't a good sign. I'm very socially confident, that's not an issue.

Again, I do think there's some projecting here; I've never said I'm uncomfortable with myself, that I worry about the things I personally don't like about myself, I'm very comfortable in who I am, and looking in the mirror I believe I'm in some ballpark of 'normal' in terms of looks. Sadly, the magic power of belief isn't really fooling anyone, and I am largely considered to be ugly, by hundreds of people who've never met, across several different countries. So either I can believe there's some global conspiracy against me, or accept the fact that I'm not as 'average' as I thought I was.

 

[wwwocls]

I think this conversation is one reason we're lonely! We're trying to argue sociological points and all we're doing is coming off as angry, defensive and self-righteous. We're like know-it-all members of the debate team.

 

[Unsigned]

I think this conversation is one reason we're lonely! We're trying to argue sociological points and all we're doing is coming off as angry, defensive and self-righteous. We're like know-it-all members of the debate team.

Females will NEVER understand what it is like to be an unwanted male. Never.