On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

[painter's radio]

I think guys call it "sloppy seconds" xD

It's nothing to do with genders though. Some women do it, some men do it. "Woman's code" gtfo. It's called respecting your friends, and their possible insecurities.

 

[kamya]

Does the code still count if you stop being friends? Or they move far away? :O

 

[jjessea]

I think the guy in the OP just sounds like he's frustrated. I know how that feels, but I don't understand where the whole wasting my time, spending money, and not getting laid gripe comes from. Seems like that would be a given with online dating, even though I've never tried it. I also dunno why he decided to text you like that 2cats. Maybe you just made that much of an impression on him and he just can't stop thinking about you. That's gotta be it, he just REALLY liked you and complaining about buying dinner and not getting laid is just how he expresses himself. It's just how his father raised him ;-).

As for being friends with a guy you're not romantically interested in, I'd like to put in a few words. As a guy, being let down kindly and gently like that by someone you're very attracted to can be one of the most painful things I can imagine going through. It basically means that even though she sees you as a good person, you have no value, that as man you are not worthy. Much of what we do as people is try and establish value to the opposite sex, and when we are valued and loved it can be one of the most gratifying and uplifting experiences that I can imagine. It also means that the woman is not only appealing and attractive, but kind and considerate as well, assuming the offer for friendship is genuine. It makes her all the more appealing, which only makes it worse. If this continues to happen it could establish a pattern and could possibly modify your self perspective; that those who you find attractive do not feel the same way about you.

Also, being friends with a member of the opposite sex as an adult, when there are no other mutual friends to speak of, is difficult and fraught with complications. If you are friends, good friends, and meet regularly for lunch, or coffee, or whatever, it would most likely be just the two of you. Deeper feelings are bound to blossom in one or the other like that and can complicate future relationships. Also, if your friend is in a relationship, the person that they're in the relationship with might be uncomfortable with the two of you spending so much time together alone, which could also cause problems. It's just complicated. Not impossible, but complicated.

That being said, I'd give my right nut for a friend right now. Being someone who feels completely isolated in an ocean of people, I'd just love to have someone to go to lunch with. Someone who calls me every once in a while and asks me how I'm doing. Someone to talk to who knows me and at least cares about me a little. Unrequited love be damned, I would love to have a good friend.

---

Gawd, I read this whole thread...

Where did my morning go?

 

[Yankeedude252]

That sucks. He's definitely not a "nice guy." He may think he's nice, but he acted more frustrated and desperate than nice. Might want to block his number.

I don't know, I think a lot of nice guys ARE frustrated and desperate. I see this guy's point, minus the entitlement. Nice guys are walked all over in the dating game.

But then, I don't think it's so much a nice guy/ ******* thing. I think it's an attractive/ unattractive thing. Attractive guys tend to be ******** because they can be. They treat women like ****, and women stay with them because they're attractive. Unattractive guys tend to be nice because they have to be. They also tend to be desperate, lonely, frustrated, and (as most girls see them), creepy. I'm one of those guys. I know I'm unattractive, and it's frustrating to me to be so nice to a girl, take her on a couple dates, say all the right things, and then be told that she only thinks of me "as a friend", when she knew I had romantic intent and that was the purpose for the dates and everything. Had she told me to begin with that she wasn't interested, I wouldn't have wasted my time or money. It's even more frustrating when, two weeks later, she's in a relationship with an attractive *********.

So don't be so hard on these guys. They're just not getting anything out of life, and they're tired of seeing everybody else have it so easy due to their looks.

 

[barky]

Ha! Your comment made my morning ardour.

kamya ~i think you've mentioned some exceptions. painter's radio said it best: respect. That is what the so-called code is all about.

Jjessea ~ I'd say you reason very valid motives for a guy SOL with women. And I'd agree wholly that much one's self-worth is decided by intrigue from the opposite sex.

But I've found friendship with women easier with age. Insecurities remain throughout our lives, but they've certainly for me lessened with age.

And sorry to hear you're feeling so on the outside! There seems to be many great people here to befriend or converse with. I'd suggest posting in the Networking thread if you haven't already. Keep your head up!

Yankedude252 ~ I think you're onto something with the attractive/unattractive vs. nice/a-hole contrast, but less emphasis needs to go towards physicality.

Yah, looks catch one's attention to start, especially with online dating. But after that initial draw, I feel looks diminish in attraction value. Depth of character, sociability, confidence, and fun vibes further the attraction.

I wouldn't consider myself a physically attractive dude either. I can't turn heads with my looks. But I like to think I make up for it in the other categories.

Keep the faith good sir! And understand that everything can be done perfectly, but sometimes chemistry just doesn't happen for the other. You haven't done wrong. She's just not for you .

 

[ardour]

That sucks. He's definitely not a "nice guy." He may think he's nice, but he acted more frustrated and desperate than nice. Might want to block his number.

I don't know, I think a lot of nice guys ARE frustrated and desperate. I see this guy's point, minus the entitlement. Nice guys are walked all over in the dating game.

But then, I don't think it's so much a nice guy/ ******* thing. I think it's an attractive/ unattractive thing. Attractive guys tend to be ******** because they can be. They treat women like ****, and women stay with them because they're attractive. Unattractive guys tend to be nice because they have to be. They also tend to be desperate, lonely, frustrated, and (as most girls see them), creepy. I'm one of those guys. I know I'm unattractive, and it's frustrating to me to be so nice to a girl, take her on a couple dates, say all the right things, and then be told that she only thinks of me "as a friend", when she knew I had romantic intent and that was the purpose for the dates and everything. Had she told me to begin with that she wasn't interested, I wouldn't have wasted my time or money. It's even more frustrating when, two weeks later, she's in a relationship with an attractive *********.

So don't be so hard on these guys. They're just not getting anything out of life, and they're tired of seeing everybody else have it so easy due to their looks.

A general frustration over the lack of chances is understandable, but please unattractive people like us aren't only nice because there's no choice. That comes across as overly cynical and negative. I've know people who are married and have plenty of friends but still treat others with respect. If it's all about appearance why did these women agree to go on dates with you in the first place?

 

[Alonewith2cats]

That sucks. He's definitely not a "nice guy." He may think he's nice, but he acted more frustrated and desperate than nice. Might want to block his number.

I don't know, I think a lot of nice guys ARE frustrated and desperate. I see this guy's point, minus the entitlement. Nice guys are walked all over in the dating game.

But then, I don't think it's so much a nice guy/ ******* thing. I think it's an attractive/ unattractive thing. Attractive guys tend to be ******** because they can be. They treat women like ****, and women stay with them because they're attractive. Unattractive guys tend to be nice because they have to be. They also tend to be desperate, lonely, frustrated, and (as most girls see them), creepy. I'm one of those guys. I know I'm unattractive, and it's frustrating to me to be so nice to a girl, take her on a couple dates, say all the right things, and then be told that she only thinks of me "as a friend", when she knew I had romantic intent and that was the purpose for the dates and everything. Had she told me to begin with that she wasn't interested, I wouldn't have wasted my time or money. It's even more frustrating when, two weeks later, she's in a relationship with an attractive *********.

So don't be so hard on these guys. They're just not getting anything out of life, and they're tired of seeing everybody else have it so easy due to their looks.

However, women will go out with men to give them a chance. So it's not as if they're not being fair. In the case of on-line dating it's impossible to know romantic interest ahead of time and it isn't always instantaneous when you meet a stranger for the first time. I guess there are some women who knowingly string men along. I'm not one of them. But I appreciate you posting this from a guy's point of view. I just didn't appreciate the way this guy texted me out of the blue with such vulgar language. He actually said "I work long hours, spend time and money on dates and no one wants to **** me" and "sick society." Very bitter. Very disturbing.

Anyway, I am over it now and I appreciate all your replies. Thank you.

 

[Yankeedude252]

If it's all about appearance why did these women agree to go on dates with you in the first place?

Free movie, is my best guess. The girl I mentioned is really the first girl who has hung out with me in almost four years, and she used me for rides and such. She was never interested, she knew I was interested, and apparently she had no problem leading me on until I spoke up about it. Oh well. I'm either too nice or too fat... or both.

---

However, women will go out with men to give them a chance. So it's not as if they're not being fair. In the case of on-line dating it's impossible to know romantic interest ahead of time and it isn't always instantaneous when you meet a stranger for the first time. I guess there are some women who knowingly string men along. I'm not one of them. But I appreciate you posting this from a guy's point of view. I just didn't appreciate the way this guy texted me out of the blue with such vulgar language. He actually said "I work long hours, spend time and money on dates and no one wants to **** me" and "sick society." Very bitter. Very disturbing.

Anyway, I am over it now and I appreciate all your replies. Thank you.

I never said you, personally, string guys along. He may be vulgar, but I mean, I know where he's coming from. I get frustrated and get vulgar. I don't show it to anybody, naturally. I don't need to get grouped in with that Elliot Rodger freak. I'm just saying that it can be frustrating, and while you may not necessarily appreciate how he handled it, I highly doubt you could walk a mile in his shoes and come out emotionally intact. It's rough, failing so hard in the dating game.

 

[TheSkaFish]

As for being friends with a guy you're not romantically interested in, I'd like to put in a few words. As a guy, being let down kindly and gently like that by someone you're very attracted to can be one of the most painful things I can imagine going through. It basically means that even though she sees you as a good person, you have no value, that as man you are not worthy....If this continues to happen it could establish a pattern and could possibly modify your self perspective; that those who you find attractive do not feel the same way about you.

This. This is exactly how I feel. I get seen as "a good person", whatever that means, but essentially one with no value. After they act and talk like they value me. And like I've said in other threads, this keeps happening to me over and over and over. Exactly the same thing. It has ultimately resulted in me feeling like that: that the ones I find attractive see me as a nothing. It really sucks.

---

VanillaCreme & ardour ~ I feel Ska is simply trying to understand his dilemma so he can improve upon it. I can see how the wording of the posts may appear to objectify women, but the tone of them leaves me to think he means well.

Pretty much. I'm trying to figure this out, so I can live like those guys for who don't have any problems attracting and keeping the ones they want in their life. Things just go smoothly for these people. I want to know how I can make my own life like that. My word choice isn't always the best but I'm no misogynist. I'm trying to break this problem down and troubleshoot it.

Ska ~ Would you consider yourself a perfectionist? I feel that kind of baser motivation could explain why you're being so hard on yourself. A saying that comes to mind goes something like:
If you chase a butterfly, it will forever elude you. Yet if you let it be, it will land softly on your shoulder.
Fight that instinct to make things happen my friend! I've struggled with it, and get it's easy said than done. But see if you can give it a try. Maybe continue to work out your thoughts here, but then leave them with us and just live what comes your way when away from the forum.
It'll come.

And regarding the whole nice-guy riddle, I found a great explanation in a movie (of all places ). Check the conversation between the three main characters in their hotel lobby in "Up in the Air", about 3/4 of the way thru. That instigated my "aha!" moment for the topic.

I would say I'm a perfectionist, definitely. I have a very clear idea on what I want in terms of women, and pretty much all of my life.

The thing is, if I just let things happen, I think I'll just get a lot of what I don't want. That's what's happened these last 14 years or so. Not just with women but everything. Ever since my childhood started winding down, I've been directionless. I haven't been trying to make stuff happen, largely because I believed for the longest time that I was just not someone who could do anything. I thought you had to be born special to get more. So I never tried and just let it be. And I haven't really gotten anywhere. But now I've changed my beliefs, now I believe that good things happen to people who try to make them happen. I don't know. I just keep hoping I'll learn how to be a generally attractive guy, with the right attitude, and I'll attract these girls I want. I had been negative about life and myself before, so I haven't really been trying at life a lot because I thought there was no point. So maybe being directionless plus my negativity has driven women away. I'm trying to be more positive now, trying to believe that I can do anything. But I guess it takes a while for that attitude to set in. I've heard that women like guys who are going for what they want, and positive. So I'm trying to be that way myself.

 

[ardour]

I never said you, personally, string guys along. He may be vulgar, but I mean, I know where he's coming from. I get frustrated and get vulgar. I don't show it to anybody, naturally. I don't need to get grouped in with that Elliot Rodger freak. I'm just saying that it can be frustrating, and while you may not necessarily appreciate how he handled it, I highly doubt you could walk a mile in his shoes and come out emotionally intact. It's rough, failing so hard in the dating game.

But this fellow thought he was entitled specifically to sex, not further contact, not a chance at a relationship from these women. That *is* vulgar. I'm with you about the lack of honesty though, the sudden change from enthusiastic to bored and listless without so much as a warning sign and the lack of consideration it takes to behave that way.

 

[Alonewith2cats]

If it's all about appearance why did these women agree to go on dates with you in the first place?

Free movie, is my best guess. The girl I mentioned is really the first girl who has hung out with me in almost four years, and she used me for rides and such. She was never interested, she knew I was interested, and apparently she had no problem leading me on until I spoke up about it. Oh well. I'm either too nice or too fat... or both.

---

However, women will go out with men to give them a chance. So it's not as if they're not being fair. In the case of on-line dating it's impossible to know romantic interest ahead of time and it isn't always instantaneous when you meet a stranger for the first time. I guess there are some women who knowingly string men along. I'm not one of them. But I appreciate you posting this from a guy's point of view. I just didn't appreciate the way this guy texted me out of the blue with such vulgar language. He actually said "I work long hours, spend time and money on dates and no one wants to **** me" and "sick society." Very bitter. Very disturbing.

Anyway, I am over it now and I appreciate all your replies. Thank you.

I never said you, personally, string guys along. He may be vulgar, but I mean, I know where he's coming from. I get frustrated and get vulgar. I don't show it to anybody, naturally. I don't need to get grouped in with that Elliot Rodger freak. I'm just saying that it can be frustrating, and while you may not necessarily appreciate how he handled it, I highly doubt you could walk a mile in his shoes and come out emotionally intact. It's rough, failing so hard in the dating game.

---

I'm not exactly winning in the dating game either, any guy I'm highly attracted to is not available to me for whatever reason and I don't feel the need to send bitter text messages to them. Regardless of where he is coming from and how frustrated he is, his behavior was unacceptable. And I'm going to add this even though I know this is not what you're saying or indicating in your post. It's not my fault or responsibility.

 

[barky]

+1 for ardour's comment. Appearance is but a small part In the grand, mystical equation of relations with the opposite sex.

And I think Mr. "Nice Guy" exemplifies why friends of the opposite sex are vital. His dismay with lack of results is the type you flush out with a female friend, not a female interest. Might even want to flush that kind of frustration out with a male friend to avoid getting knocked-out .

Ska ~ I think I get where you're at. But:

Male friends still have value to women, it's just a different kind of value. And because of our natural instincts, that kind comes second in priority to romanticism.

A better choice of wording might've been additional patience. Begrudgingly accepting life's offerings is different from letting things happen. We still make efforts to influence outcomes when letting things happen. We don't, however, stop trying altogether.

Brilliant realization about the power of a positive attitude and limitless beliefs! If you can keep both flowing inside you, you'll be golden. Now just have the patience!

Glad you've come to terms Alonewith2cats!

 

[Case]

I don't know, I think a lot of nice guys ARE frustrated and desperate. I see this guy's point, minus the entitlement.

As soon as the entitlement rears its ugly head, whatever point he had was lost in a sea of whining. At that point, the guy ceased to be nice. My hope is that guys like him stop being finger-pointing jerks and start acting like adults with confidence in themselves.

The problem (as illustrated by the OP's experience) is that some guys feel they deserve something from a girl when they've put in all of this effort, and it just doesn't work that way. Buying dinner, saying the right things, acting nice, doesn't guarantee a spot in a woman's panties. Then, when they realize what they've done didn't amount to anything, they angrily blame women for all of their lack of sex, when the true reason is lack of attraction.

So don't be so hard on these guys. They're just not getting anything out of life, and they're tired of seeing everybody else have it so easy due to their looks.

Being tired of not getting laid, I can understand. I can even sympathize with that. But blaming women who date *********s as the reason they aren't getting laid is beyond the pale for me. Why would a guy want to date a woman who prefers *********s? It makes no sense to me.

The only finger-pointing that we should be doing is at ourselves. We should be improving ourselves in any way we can. (Physically, mentally, professionally, and spiritually, if that floats your boat.) We should all stop blaming our plight on a gender's perceived slights, in my humble opinion.

 

[barky]

^ Amen!

 

[TheSkaFish]

Ska ~ I think I get where you're at. But:

Male friends still have value to women, it's just a different kind of value. And because of our natural instincts, that kind comes second in priority to romanticism.

A better choice of wording might've been additional patience. Begrudgingly accepting life's offerings is different from letting things happen. We still make efforts to influence outcomes when letting things happen. We don't, however, stop trying altogether.

Brilliant realization about the power of a positive attitude and limitless beliefs! If you can keep both flowing inside you, you'll be golden. Now just have the patience!

I just feel that there has got to be a way to jump from the "just friends" pile into the "would date" pile. There's got to be some way to change the kind of value I have - like alchemy. If we have enough in common to hold a real conversation, then it should just be a matter of carrying myself in the right way. I'm somehow giving off an "unattractive" vibe and I need to stop that.

I think that it's not so much that you only are compatible with specific people, because that would be really limiting. I think it's that there are generally attractive and generally unattractive traits.

I guess I have to just have patience, like you said.

 

[jjessea]

Regardless of where he is coming from and how frustrated he is, his behavior was unacceptable...It's not my fault or responsibility.

Just thought I'd quote that. I know how the guy feels, but acting like that is out of line.

 

[barky]

Ska ~ Experiences have led me to see playfulness as a winning front. I think women appreciate a conversationalist and quality listener. However, that's not the immediate desire. The key is efficient talk; as little as possible to get comfy and afford furthered attraction.

Maybe PM me if you'd like to discuss further. I don't have all the answers, and a group chat may help more, but I feel that's for another thread. You could possibly create one for it.

Cheers!

 

[TheSkaFish]

Ska ~ Experiences have led me to see playfulness as a winning front. I think women appreciate a conversationalist and quality listener. However, that's not the immediate desire. The key is efficient talk; as little as possible to get comfy and afford furthered attraction.

Maybe PM me if you'd like to discuss further. I don't have all the answers, and a group chat may help more, but I feel that's for another thread. You could possibly create one for it.

Cheers!

I agree, and have observed men who exhibit these traits of playfulness, conversation skills, and listening skills do very well with women. Not to blow my own pipe, but I'm not too bad at these things myself. It must be something else, in my own case. I have a few suspects but can't quite be sure.

I tried to create a thread about cracking the attraction code, but it ended badly. I'll just stick to PM, at some point.

 

[Batman55]

The only finger-pointing that we should be doing is at ourselves. We should be improving ourselves in any way we can. (Physically, mentally, professionally, and spiritually, if that floats your boat.) We should all stop blaming our plight on a gender's perceived slights, in my humble opinion.

Some men may not always have the proper skill-set or ability to improve professionally, though. They may be stuck in a job that doesn't pay well. One has to wonder if women will notice other kinds of improvements, and look past the category that includes "ambition and career." The cynic in me would like to say something, but I will shut him down, this once...

 

[VanillaCreme]

I just feel that there has got to be a way to jump from the "just friends" pile into the "would date" pile. There's got to be some way to change the kind of value I have - like alchemy. If we have enough in common to hold a real conversation, then it should just be a matter of carrying myself in the right way. I'm somehow giving off an "unattractive" vibe and I need to stop that.

I think that it's not so much that you only are compatible with specific people, because that would be really limiting. I think it's that there are generally attractive and generally unattractive traits.

I guess I have to just have patience, like you said.

I don't think it's an "unattractive" vibe. It's simply: If someone's not attracted, then they're not attracted. There's always a chance that something could develop, but if they just don't have any attraction towards you, then there's nothing you can do. And it's nothing to do with you. I don't know if you are taking it all personal, but it's nothing about you. We just don't drop our panties at the first hint that a dude likes us. Well, some women do, but you get my point, right? Just because you like a girl doesn't mean she has to reciprocate. It's all fine and well if she does, but just because you label her as "perfect" because she's got A, B, and C that you're looking for, it doesn't mean she'll be into you.