On-line daters watch out for "nice guy syndrome."

[TheSkaFish]

But then it begs the question why? Why is someone not attractive, and why would someone be attractive? I really do think that there are ways to act, ways to carry yourself, personalities that are attractive for certain reasons. And there are unattractive ways to be, which also have certain reasons.

I just think that it's very disempowering to take the approach that the only partners a person can ever hope to have are a pool of completely random people and that you have no say. If that were the case, why bother liking anyone, anything, trying to live any specific lifestyle, or having any preferences at all for that matter, because you get what you get and that's all, take it or leave it.

Also, I've noticed way too many common factors in guys who seem to get who they want to think that it's coincidental. I really do think that there are right and wrong ways to approach this. That's what this thread is about, isn't it? The "nice guy" personality that people wind up in, is a crappy identity. It doesn't create attraction, it's insufficient. Which leads to frustration because nobody tells anyone that to start with. By contrast, the *********/"gangster"/tough guy personality, while also crappy, is less so because it is bold and decisive (however immature and stupid) and creates tension, which comes off as more attractive than simply being nice. Neither is truly desirable, but the jerk wins simply because the "nice guy" is a zero, a non-person. I think your starting personality is determined by your thoughts and beliefs about life and yourself and whoever you're trying to get, and your past experiences and your reactions to them. I'm someone who's never had a date and never had anyone have a crush on me, so it's created a very negative attitude towards relationships. I mean, what do these results mean? That my current identity is attractive to no one. I know I've had a generally negative attitude towards life and my chances of success - I used to believe that the only people who would get anything good out of life were the lucky few who were born special, and that everyone else just got what they got and was stuck. That's had an impact on how I've lived my life, and it goes without saying that that is a very unattractive attitude. So I think I need to change my identity, to change my results. And just maybe she'll see the change and see that I'm someone else now. Someone who's actually attractive.

VanillaCreme - it's not that I am trying to lock horns with you over this. I just think that there's got to be a way that a person can line themselves up with what (or in this case who) they want, in anything in life. I used to believe I was limited and the life I have now is the result of that belief. And I'm not that happy with who I've turned out to be, so I think, I've got to try something else. I like to believe we are unlimited and if we want x, we need to look at what we need to do to get there.

 

[jjessea]

You said earlier that society tends to revere outlaw, rebellious types. I tend to agree. It's not because human beings in general are stupid and they like those individuals because they can't think for themselves. It's because they challenge us. They push the boundaries of normal behavior and show us what we could be, despite societal and cultural limitations. People like to be challenged, they like to be pushed, and the same goes for women. Men that are successful with women aren't always so because they're attractive, it's because they push them. Because they challenge their perspective about themselves, and in a nice often subtle, flirtatious way, are requiring them to prove themselves as attractive and appealing.

Women, especially young, attractive women, are always being hit on by men. It basically starts the minute they walk out the door. All that most of the guys are doing is trying to prove to the woman, in a very short time, that they are attractive and appealing. Someone who turns the tables on her, and makes the process fun at the same time is going to automatically peak her interest. Men that are successful with women do this, and are confident about it. So called "Bad Boys" adopt a persona that allows them to do this and hence is why they're successful with women, but the persona isn't necessary.

Just my 2 cents from observation.

 

[VanillaCreme]

But then it begs the question why? Why is someone not attractive, and why would someone be attractive? I really do think that there are ways to act, ways to carry yourself, personalities that are attractive for certain reasons. And there are unattractive ways to be, which also have certain reasons.

I just think that it's very disempowering to take the approach that the only partners a person can ever hope to have are a pool of completely random people and that you have no say. If that were the case, why bother liking anyone, anything, trying to live any specific lifestyle, or having any preferences at all for that matter, because you get what you get and that's all, take it or leave it.

You do have a say. And every woman you meet has a say whether or not she would date you. When you meet someone that catches your eye, and you catch her eye, then it's mutual. Not every time will be mutual, so don't expect it to be. From many of the posts I read of yours, it's almost like you expect these women to date you simply because you consider them perfect. It doesn't work that way. Things have to be mutual. Think of the women you've turned down because they didn't fit in your view of what you'd date. That is you having a say. You don't just date anyone and everyone because, hell, they're there. Why the hell not? Do you?

VanillaCreme - it's not that I am trying to lock horns with you over this. I just think that there's got to be a way that a person can line themselves up with what (or in this case who) they want, in anything in life. I used to believe I was limited and the life I have now is the result of that belief. And I'm not that happy with who I've turned out to be, so I think, I've got to try something else. I like to believe we are unlimited and if we want x, we need to look at what we need to do to get there.

I'm certainly not trying to lock horns or butt heads either. And if you can take something useful from my words, more power to you. I'm just simply trying to explain, perhaps from a very general female point of view, why when a guy does walk up to us, asks us out, the reasons why we would decline. I know a lot of people take rejection personally, when really, they shouldn't. Many times, it's not about them and everything to do with the fact that there's just nothing. You can want whatever you want in life - that doesn't mean you're going to get it. I'd want to see a midget with a shotgun riding a bullymong. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to see that.

 

[TheSkaFish]

From many of the posts I read of yours, it's almost like you expect these women to date you simply because you consider them perfect....Think of the women you've turned down because they didn't fit in your view of what you'd date. That is you having a say. You don't just date anyone and everyone because, hell, they're there. Why the hell not? Do you?

I know a lot of people take rejection personally, when really, they shouldn't. Many times, it's not about them and everything to do with the fact that there's just nothing.

The thing is though, not only do I consider these women as having what I want, but I also am at least on speaking terms with them. To me, having nothing would be like just seeing some "hot" girl and liking her without knowing what she is about. And having it turn out that we have no common interests at all. It's not like that with these girls. We can and do talk, and we have common interests. That's what's frustrating. Like, there's something we can bond over, and I'm not a total slouch. I believe I need work, sure. But I also still believe I have some measure of value.

When I choose not to date someone, when I don't feel anything for them, it's for a concrete reason. Actually only a small handful of reasons. Either they don't have the looks, don't have the personality, or don't have any of the above. So if someone rejects me, I would say that it is very much about me. It's that I either lack something they want, have something they don't like, or some combination. And I believe it's fixable. If I have a failing identity, it means I have to get rid of it.

---

You said earlier that society tends to revere outlaw, rebellious types. I tend to agree. It's not because human beings in general are stupid and they like those individuals because they can't think for themselves. It's because they challenge us. They push the boundaries of normal behavior and show us what we could be, despite societal and cultural limitations. People like to be challenged, they like to be pushed, and the same goes for women. Men that are successful with women aren't always so because they're attractive, it's because they push them. Because they challenge their perspective about themselves, and in a nice often subtle, flirtatious way, are requiring them to prove themselves as attractive and appealing.

Women, especially young, attractive women, are always being hit on by men. It basically starts the minute they walk out the door. All that most of the guys are doing is trying to prove to the woman, in a very short time, that they are attractive and appealing. Someone who turns the tables on her, and makes the process fun at the same time is going to automatically peak her interest. Men that are successful with women do this, and are confident about it. So called "Bad Boys" adopt a persona that allows them to do this and hence is why they're successful with women, but the persona isn't necessary.

Just my 2 cents from observation.

This makes a lot of sense. I disagree that "bad boys" show us our potential, but I do agree that people do like to be pushed. They like to be introduced to more than they knew in their comfort zone. I see that. And I have heard before that the best way to be attractive is to set things up so that women have to qualify themselves to you, not the other way around. This is where I have trouble. I don't know how to do this. The women are already very qualified by me, but I come up short. They're always beautiful, intelligent, philosophical, playful, creative, and adventurous - much more so than me. And it's usually them that challenges and pushes me, not me challenging and pushing them. I think I see the problem. I really can't show these women anything, because they are on a higher level in life than me.

So how does one achieve the same effect, without the "bad boy" persona? I'd rather beat them than join them.

 

[Sci-Fi]

Having confidence in yourself. That's all anyone really ever needs is a little confidence in yourself and you'll be amazed at what you can achieve. It's just believing in yourself and not being afraid of rejection, it is something we have to deal with on a regular basis in life. As long as you are confident in yourself and what you do you can always just pick yourself back up, dust yourself off, not let it get you down and try again. I'm not talking about being Joe Blow Swagger either, just believe in yourself.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I see. I have gotten more confident over the years than I was, no doubt about it. But I must still not have enough. It probably would have helped if I was good at something - all I'm really good at is surfing the internet It's probably that I need to do more with my life. These girls probably feel like they are back-tracking, with me. They are very confident people, themselves.

I see a pattern now. I've been looking for the female version of Peter Pan, like some kind of wonder-girl to take my hand and fly me away to an adventure of sorts. Instead of me doing that. Maybe that's the trouble. But that's what I like. Back to the drawing board.

 

[ardour]

Having confidence in yourself. That's all anyone really ever needs is a little confidence in yourself and you'll be amazed at what you can achieve. It's just believing in yourself and not being afraid of rejection, it is something we have to deal with on a regular basis in life. As long as you are confident in yourself and what you do you can always just pick yourself back up, dust yourself off, not let it get you down and try again. I'm not talking about being Joe Blow Swagger either, just believe in yourself.

It's also the hardest thing to cultivate and maintain. Confidence is based on how you perceive yourself and if you've gotten nothing but negative feedback your entire life... well you get where I'm going with this...

 

[Case]

Having confidence in yourself. That's all anyone really ever needs is a little confidence in yourself and you'll be amazed at what you can achieve. It's just believing in yourself and not being afraid of rejection, it is something we have to deal with on a regular basis in life. As long as you are confident in yourself and what you do you can always just pick yourself back up, dust yourself off, not let it get you down and try again. I'm not talking about being Joe Blow Swagger either, just believe in yourself.

It's also the hardest thing to cultivate and maintain. Confidence is based on how you perceive yourself and if you've gotten nothing but negative feedback your entire life... well you get where I'm going with this...

You have a point. Confidence is harder if we hate ourselves. When we're given constant negative feedback, we can behave with a kind of Pavlovian response. But this cycle of negative thought patterns can be broken with positive affirmations and by surrounding ourselves with positive people.

Confidence isn't like flicking a switch, of course, and for some people, it's harder to attain. But with effort and practice, it is definitely attainable.

 

[ladyforsaken]

Confidence isn't like flicking a switch, of course, and for some people, it's harder to attain. But with effort and practice, it is definitely attainable.

And the will to keep at it. If you really wanna do it, then you keep going after it until you get it. Because I've seen others achieve this confidence, I push myself to get there too. I wasn't who I am today. I wasn't able to talk to people. I'm comfortable for most of the times now.

So I guess what Sci-Fi and Case said about confidence, effort, practice and I'd like to add willpower and perseverance.

 

[VanillaCreme]

The thing is though, not only do I consider these women as having what I want, but I also am at least on speaking terms with them. . . . But I also still believe I have some measure of value.

. . .

Either they don't have the looks, don't have the personality, or don't have any of the above. So if someone rejects me, I would say that it is very much about me. It's that I either lack something they want, have something they don't like, or some combination. And I believe it's fixable. If I have a failing identity, it means I have to get rid of it.

I see. I have gotten more confident over the years than I was, no doubt about it. But I must still not have enough. It probably would have helped if I was good at something - all I'm really good at is surfing the internet It's probably that I need to do more with my life. These girls probably feel like they are back-tracking, with me. They are very confident people, themselves.

I see a pattern now. I've been looking for the female version of Peter Pan, like some kind of wonder-girl to take my hand and fly me away to an adventure of sorts. Instead of me doing that. Maybe that's the trouble. But that's what I like. Back to the drawing board.

Pardon me if this question seems like I'm being a *****, but, why is it all about you? Two people in a relationship, or the beginnings of one. Women aren't in a store, waiting for you behind glass to pick them out. Hell, even pets can decide if they like you or not. You have a measurement of value, but no one else does?

You're a nice person, probably a cool dude to hang with, but every post I read of yours, it's like you feel entitlement. That just because you like someone, you're entitled to have them, regardless of them not feeling the same. And it's got nothing to do with anything else. You can be physically attracted to someone. Love their personality. Love all they do in life, and still not have any feelings towards them.

It's great you've gained more confidence over the years. But you put yourself down so much. You shouldn't do that. Many people can pick up on that attitude. I just think you'll meet a person that you didn't even know you needed, and you'll look back on all this and wonder what the hell you were thinking.

 

[jjessea]

I wonder if there's someone specific that Ska is fixated with, and she hasn't reciprocated. That would explain a lot. Desperately wanting someone you can't have is a big mind-****. That's what I suspect anyway. I dunno, my whole life is basically spent speculating about other people, and I never get to find out whether I'm right or not. Unless it's a patient I'm interested in and I can find out by inquiring about their outcome with the hospital I took them to. Otherwise I just wonder.

I suppose I should just ask, but I'm not gonna do that...

 

[ladyforsaken]

^I think so, yeah. Like I've told Ska, he's not moving on if he doesn't let it go. I'm not sure how far along he is in doing that, or if he even wants to (no offense, Ska, I don't mean anything negative by saying this, just an observation of mine).

 

[VanillaCreme]

Desperately wanting someone you can't have is a big mind-****.

Very much so. It's always in the back of your mind, what if I were this way? Or that way? Or if I hadn't been this certain way... But, the day goes on. The years go on. Life goes on. Can't change it. Best I could do was try to take something useful from what I went through.

 

[Batman55]

Very much so. It's always in the back of your mind, what if I were this way? Or that way? Or if I hadn't been this certain way... But, the day goes on. The years go on. Life goes on. Can't change it. Best I could do was try to take something useful from what I went through.

I agree.

More to the point, though, as for learning to cultivate a more attractive personality, it really is confidence--learning to like oneself. This is something I've not figured out, or I'm just very delayed in it.. and I can speculate on the reason why. I've always believed you need to justify confidence.. as in, you need to have achieved what is expected of you, in a timely manner, lead an active life, "keep up with the competition", and so on. If you continually fail to do such things, then you've no reason to like yourself, etc etc.

Fail. It is flawed thinking. Time and time again I see confident, even extroverted people, who haven't done a whole lot in their life. And whatever it is they have done (usually nothing special) they nonetheless take some pride in it. It doesn't make sense to me, really, but somehow it works. Whether this is a kind of behavioral exaggeration (a learned mechanism) or if it just comes from within, that's a difficult one to answer.. but the point is that this works.

I think maybe the idea to take away from this is maybe you don't need a very active life, x or y accomplishment, this or that, etc. in order to appear more attractive to women. Maybe you just need to learn to like yourself a bit more.

 

[VanillaCreme]

I've always believed you need to justify confidence.. as in, you need to have achieved what is expected of you, in a timely manner, lead an active life, "keep up with the competition", and so on. If you continually fail to do such things, then you've no reason to like yourself, etc etc.

In my opinion, confidence doesn't need to be justified. Why would you have to justify confidence? How could you? If something's even expected of me, by anyone, I don't even know. If I did know, I wouldn't care.

 

[ardour]

In my opinion, confidence doesn't need to be justified. Why would you have to justify confidence?

It does in one's own mind. Otherwise from where does it originate? The next closest thing is a couldn't care less, nothing to lose attitude. But as soon as you have a little success with it, you do have something to lose, then it's hard to trick the mind into believing you don't.

 

[Sci-Fi]

Confidence isn't justification it is something you develop within ones self, there is no justification for it. If that's how you think of confidence then you are thinking and going about it the wrong way.

 

[ardour]

Confidence isn't justification it is something you develop within ones self, there is no justification for it.

Confidence should be based on believing good things about yourself - not necessarily achievements, income or anything like that, but an acknowledgement of some positive personal traits at least. There needs to be some validity to that, those positive elements to your character need to be there, so it does require some justification otherwise what is it but self-delusion.

 

[Disaffected]

Yea unearned confidence is just hubris, its obnoxious and gross.

 

[TheSkaFish]

You're a nice person, probably a cool dude to hang with, but every post I read of yours, it's like you feel entitlement. That just because you like someone, you're entitled to have them, regardless of them not feeling the same. And it's got nothing to do with anything else. You can be physically attracted to someone. Love their personality. Love all they do in life, and still not have any feelings towards them.

It's great you've gained more confidence over the years. But you put yourself down so much. You shouldn't do that. Many people can pick up on that attitude. I just think you'll meet a person that you didn't even know you needed, and you'll look back on all this and wonder what the hell you were thinking.

Like I said, it's that I could connect to this person. We used to talk all the time, for hours at a time. She used to try to qualify herself to me. We had things to talk about, it wasn't just seeing some attractive person at a bar and not knowing anything about them. She commented positively about my looks, she said I was funny and she said it made her happy to talk to me. So I thought, sure. Why couldn't it work, it seems like everything is there. I guess I wasn't confident enough, or accomplished enough. Or "cool" enough, because with a younger person, unfortunately, that is a factor.

I just think there's got to be something a person can do to increase their potential dating pool, potentially even to include people who were previously unattainable. I mean, what if everyone who likes you just sucks, then what? You have to settle for a boring, unfulfilling relationship or just forget about experiencing one at all? I firmly believe there has to be a way to get what one wants. Things happen, or don't happen, for a reason. If that means changing my identity, so be it. All I know is I want what I want, and everything else is just noise to me. There are people in this world who don't have to settle, and that's the kind of person I aim to be.

---

I wonder if there's someone specific that Ska is fixated with, and she hasn't reciprocated. That would explain a lot. Desperately wanting someone you can't have is a big mind-****.

^I think so, yeah. Like I've told Ska, he's not moving on if he doesn't let it go. I'm not sure how far along he is in doing that, or if he even wants to (no offense, Ska, I don't mean anything negative by saying this, just an observation of mine).

I spent the better part of last year getting to know this girl. We talked for hours, we laughed at each others' jokes, we made plans, we connected. She said loads of sweet things to me, even some sexual things. And she was supportive of my dreams and desires. I just don't think someone spends hour after hour, day after day, talking to someone who is worthless to them. I think I messed up somewhere. Actually I have several guesses where, exactly. Part of me itches to tell her to go to hell, but I know that will only push her away more. The other part of me is holding out hope that she'll break up with the "bad boy" and someday she'll see me in a new light if I just do the right things.

The thing is, I don't want to let it go. I don't want to have to "move on". I think that's one of the biggest loser phrases there is, and I don't want to learn to accept the role of a loser. Just saying that phrase makes me want to spit. I'm tired of life shitting on me in this arena - I want to end it once and for all. I want to kick this situation's ***. I want to figure this out, beat the bad guy, and get what I want. We get one life to get everything we dream of. Most people learn to accept the idea that they are limited and don't think they can get more than they are allowed by life, I used to think that way. But it leads to a very unrewarding lifestyle. I want to be remarkable, I want to be the kind of guy who can pull off something like this.

No offense taken. But at the same time, I'm out to win and I know that most of the good things in life take work, most of the good things are outside our zones of complacency. I could settle and eventually learn to accept it, I guess - but that would be a choice made based on fear of failure and just laziness, not my true desires. And I'd just go the rest of my life unfulfilled and resentful. That's no solution. I want to beat my circumstances, not accept limitation by them.