Questions for the Women

[Joturbo]

Alright sorry I should have been a bit more descriptive...throw in Napolean complex  ,think aggressive morph but I like him now so moving on.

On the kids issue it certainly felt feminine bringing up kids on my own five days a week( cue the violins ) nappies to teenagers school runs sleep overs mostly girls 12 to 16 god what a relief when that stopped but the house had to be paid for meaning she had to work all hours (better paid job than mine).I don't think many masculine men could do that and keep a business going. Anyway really wanted views on the question just thought it would be interesting not about my boring life thanks sorry for the overnight post was just feeling a bit mischievous tired and emotional.

No harm done...

Don't you think that the fact that you had to deal with mostly girls could be more relevant to feeling that way about bringing up kids than some inherent femininity in you? If anything, it shows you have...feminine potential but who's to say whether you wouldn't have done equally good or even better had it been mostly boys you had to deal with. And maybe it needs a masculine man (expanding the definition) to do all that kids stuff while keeping a business going. Just throwing that out there...

Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

 

[ardour]

Lol "real men"....
If you write "M" as sex on your application forms, that qualufies you as a real man. The rest is entirely personality and choice related.
I've been thrown that term before as opposed and as an independantly tagged "real man", it alwars irked me, because the introverted, quiet, bookish non-athletic reserved dude that's my friend is as much a real man as I am. I guess we're still a lot more tribal in our thinking, despite our supposed advancement in culture.
I'm sure said girls wouldnt think that when they see me screwing around with the kids in high heels on weekends, or with my pink appron lol!

Plenty of reserved, arty or what-have-you type guys get into relationships because they still intuitively understand what it means to project masculinity (stoicism, low emotional investement ie. not really caring). The stereotypical 'bloke' stuff is mostly irrelevant now.

 

[user 115627]

Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

Ha...well, these are some enlightening details. I suppose you are more the agreeable type. Which does not necessarily make you feminine, but they say that on average it's a bit more of a feminine thing. But you got me with the leopard print socks...not their wooliness, not the broaches and freezing limbs (cause I got that issue myself, some circulation issue)...but the leopard print.

...just winding you up here. I find the topic in itself very fascinating. Men, women and what may or may not be inbetween. As I said in my first post, I would say I'm mentally more masculine but not physically. I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

 

[DarkSelene]

manflu, just saying

 

[user 139760]

Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

Ha...well, these are some enlightening details. I suppose you are more the agreeable type. Which does not necessarily make you feminine, but they say that on average it's a bit more of a feminine thing. But you got me with the leopard print socks...not their wooliness, not the broaches and freezing limbs (cause I got that issue myself, some circulation issue)...but the leopard print.

...just winding you up here. I find the topic in itself very fascinating. Men, women and what may or may not be inbetween. As I said in my first post, I would say I'm mentally more masculine but not physically. I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

Different. Kind of like all of us really lol.
Sorry to but in, it's not my convo. But I don't see any inherent differences besides cosmetic ones. And I've said it before I believe, but your deeply intuitive and reflective mind makes you a helluva dude at that.
I've always wondered if our idea of masculinity is defined by society or if our behavior defines its idea inside our society. Any thoughts?

---

manflu, just saying

I got that since last week. While everyone called in sick, I worked coughing and sweating like a hog, cos *grunt* lol.
Manflu is a choice, methinks.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Plenty reserved, arty of whathaveyou type guys get into relationships because they still intuitively understand what it means to project masculinity (stoicism, low emotional investement ie. not really caring). The stereotypical 'bloke' stuff is mostly irrelevant now.

I'm not saying Richard's friend is this, I don't know him.  I'm just saying I've seen what you're talking about.

I'd say the stereotypical "bloke" stuff, as you put it, is still as relevant as ever.  But also I agree, lots of these hipster types can get into relationships because they can do all the things you said (well, some aren't stoic, they prance around like idiots), but also because they still project power, just not physically.  They project power by taking a very cold, cynical, smug, evaluating, dismissive attitude of superiority, stroking their pseudo-intellectual ego and making sarcastic quips.  They're all about seeming like they don't actually like things, except ironically or to do the whole "look at me, i'm oh so much more clever and cultured than you" routine, which gives them the spin to get the crowd on their side and distracts from the fact that these guys aren't really about anything.  That element of competition, edging the other guy out is still there.  This is one reason why I don't care for "witty" people, because it's another social status dominance game.

It gets worse when they lay on the "misunderstood poet/tortured artist" bullshit.  

I can't help myself, I just hate that guys like this, or my other "favorite people", are who gets ahead in this world.  I've felt this way my whole life.  I wish there was another Earth I could go to, where things weren't like this.

I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

That's remarkably close to how I am, except that I'd try to avoid scraping my knee in the first place.  I didn't put myself in athletic or physical situations because I figured I didn't have the body to be good at it, so what's the point?  And I never had that need to be hard, macho, and hyper-competitive - I always thought, why not just be however you want to?  I was more into stories anyway.  

I was thinking about this with a friend over the weekend and I really don't think I'm that much of a feminine man.  I'm just not hyper-masculine, I don't see masculinity as something that I have to constantly defend or project, it's just one of my default characteristics.  Which is enough for women to not take me seriously, unfortunately.

 

[user 115627]

Different. Kind of like all of us really lol.
Sorry to but in, it's not my convo. But I don't see any inherent differences besides cosmetic ones. And I've said it before I believe, but your deeply intuitive and reflective mind makes you a helluva dude at that.
I've always wondered if our idea of masculinity is defined by society or if our behavior defines its idea inside our society. Any thoughts?

It's everyone's conversation, Richard. I'd also say that if we have a real talk about masculinity then the more voices, the better...and some male voices wouldn't hurt.

The answer to the question is always "both". Like art imitates life imitates art and so on. And even if we prescribe equal biological starting points to men and women (like you do) that still wouldn't mean we are blank slates, so we have biology informing culture/behavior as well. Actually...even if our differences were purely cosmetic plus some internal plumbing, we all know that differences in reaction are also predicated on what we see. Pretty face, ugly face. Tall person, small person etc. Something to consider even for hardcore blankslateists.

Ideas about masculinity change between cultures and across time with changing environments but some factors remain relatively stable. I think you can't twist it around endlessly either, just like there is only a limited number of functioning, lasting societies possible cause at the end of the day they all need to survive and propagate or they run out after 50 years unless they proselytize like crazy (which still needs "other" groups to draw from then). Suicide cults work for a while but they don't last for obvious reasons. Or take a look at the Shaker religion which had celibacy as a core tenet...anyways, I rambled.

 

[Joturbo]

Rodent teenagers breed teenagers I was the mug parent that  had the  majority of sleepovers boys and girls running through the house we lived on a road where the kids could run wild as you put it and my house with the didn't like to say no dad was there favourite destination all the other parents being stricter with masculine dads saying NO....God nightmares coming back about troubles with kids.

Also I have a vast collection of women's antique broaches and I wear wolly leopard print socks at night to keep my delicate tottsies toasty in winter...feminine enough for you Rodent.Anyway enough about me please

How about you Rodent do you consider yourself a masculine or feminine man and why just interested??

Ha...well, these are some enlightening details. I suppose you are more the agreeable type. Which does not necessarily make you feminine, but they say that on average it's a bit more of a feminine thing. But you got me with the leopard print socks...not their wooliness, not the broaches and freezing limbs (cause I got that issue myself, some circulation issue)...but the leopard print.

...just winding you up here. I find the topic in itself very fascinating. Men, women and what may or may not be inbetween. As I said in my first post, I would say I'm mentally more masculine but not physically. I'm a lanky, short-sighted, narrow-shouldered guy. Quiet, don't really do smalltalk, mostly focused on my job. Proud gaming junkie since young age. But also the slightly creative type, used to draw crazy stuff and occasionally dabble in music-making now. I like to drink, but I don't like bars or clubs or any commotion. I don't like kids and don't get along with them at all, never did. They don't like me either. And when I was a kid, I was the whiny kind that always cried whenever he scraped a knee.

...what does that make me?

Rodent I think only you can know the answer but maybe it comes with age and experience but I know thinking back now I've always had more feminine traits right from an early age. Personally though not that my opinion matters a jot really before that last paragraph I felt from your replies a really warm assured articulate confidence veering more to masculine than feminine. I can feel the feminine women melting into their keyboards as you speak and I feel a bit envious about that attribute that I can sense from your posts , (don't shoot me skafish but I'll pm you my addi for the cheque Rodent) no really I do genuinely think that. To me physical attributes aren't important because looking at me you'd probably think masculine but I am definitely more feminine inside. 

On the question of kids do you think your zoning in on the kids you think don't like you. Because I'm a big kid at heart and you sound very likeable to me(bigger cheque please) .....bullish#t alert I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well but that's nothing new lol.

By the way I gotta a zebra Wolly print pair of socks too but I'm not sure if this is relevant......

 

[user 139760]

It's everyone's conversation, Richard. I'd also say that if we have a real talk about masculinity then the more voices, the better...and some male voices wouldn't hurt.

The answer to the question is always "both". Like art imitates life imitates art and so on. And even if we prescribe equal biological starting points to men and women (like you do) that still wouldn't mean we are blank slates, so we have biology informing culture/behavior as well. Actually...even if our differences were purely cosmetic plus some internal plumbing, we all know that differences in reaction are also predicated on what we see. Pretty face, ugly face. Tall person, small person etc. Something to consider even for hardcore blankslateists.

Ideas about masculinity change between cultures and across time with changing environments but some factors remain relatively stable. I think you can't twist it around endlessly either, just like there is only a limited number of functioning, lasting societies possible cause at the end of the day they all need to survive and propagate or they run out after 50 years unless they proselytize like crazy (which still needs "other" groups to draw from then). Suicide cults work for a while but they don't last for obvious reasons. Or take a look at the Shaker religion which had celibacy as a core tenet...anyways, I rambled.

Well of course, biologically speaking we all have the same starting points. Anything afterwards is anyone's ballgame. For example, gay couple friends of mine. After only a 5 minute convo, you can clearly see they are men, identify as men and have definite, typically associated male behavior associated. So out goes the stereotype of one man being "more effiminate" in a gay relationship. So they are as much men as I am. Which leads me to think that "this is what a man is" labels or generalisations will always be, at best, highly speculative. You have to judge by individual or nothing, I think.

I also wear my daughters big pink "bearpaw" chausettes on weekends when she's not there (warm as hell lol) and I wouldn't think it plays any particular role in my masculinity. Wasnt it Bret Hart who wore "real men wear Pink" t-shirts? ;-)

 

[user 115627]

Rodent I think only you can know the answer but maybe it comes with age and experience but I know thinking back now I've always had more feminine traits right from an early age. Personally though not that my opinion matters a jot really before that last paragraph I felt from your replies a really warm assured articulate confidence veering more to masculine than feminine. I can feel the feminine women melting into their keyboards as you speak and I feel a bit envious about that attribute that I can sense from your posts , (don't shoot me skafish but I'll pm you my addi for the cheque Rodent) no really I do genuinely think that. To me physical attributes aren't important because looking at me you'd probably think masculine but I am definitely more feminine inside.

On the question of kids do you think your zoning in on the kids you think don't like you. Because I'm a big kid at heart and you sound very likeable to me(bigger cheque please) .....bullish#t alert I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well but that's nothing new lol.

By the way I gotta a zebra Wolly print pair of socks too but I'm not sure if this is relevant......

...oh my lord, that's a bit much. I already had trouble digesting such a "compliment" when I got it from female friends (and my girlfriend), but you'd be the first man I hear it from in that manner. It doesn't make it any easier. The worst part is that some people on here know what I look like and it only supported that impression. I just don't see myself that way, but I reckon that's my problem.

It's not like kids openly tell me they hate me, but among my relatives I have mostly been ignored or mildly ridiculed by children of all ages so I can't really give them the benefit of the doubt. Overall I have no connection to kids whatsoever. But I don't want to talk honeysuckle about kids. After all, I don't exactly have a good connection to people in general.

PS: Yes, I have one pair of wooly socks but they are single-colored...

Well of course, biologically speaking we all have the same starting points. Anything afterwards is anyone's ballgame. For example, gay couple friends of mine. After only a 5 minute convo, you can clearly see they are men, identify as men and have definite, typically associated male behavior associated. So out goes the stereotype of one man being "more effiminate" in a gay relationship. So they are as much men as I am. Which leads me to think that "this is what a man is" labels or generalisations will always be, at best, highly speculative. You have to judge by individual or nothing, I think.

I also wear my daughters big pink "bearpaw" chausettes on weekends when she's not there (warm as hell lol) and I wouldn't think it plays any particular role in my masculinity. Wasnt it Bret Hart who wore "real men wear Pink" t-shirts? ;-)

See, I never really bought much into the "effeminate gay guy" stereotype. Gay men exist on a spectrum like everyone else and I don't know how wide that spectrum extends. For all we know, on the spectrum of gay men we might find the most masculine and most feminine men alike. To throw my own anecdote in here...I have gay colleagues at work who are married to each other. One is at least physically more masculine than the other (and also quite a bit older), but if I had to be honest I would consider them both more feminine-leaning in their behavior and interests, so I couldn't assign a "role" to either of them. If we want to go fully sociological, maybe the only reason why we have the effeminate stereotype is because of historical association of gay rights with feminists.

Speaking of which...pink is faded (masculine) royalty red and was originally a boy's color. Things change. Personally I still don't like pink and wouldn't wear it. I don't like any strong vibrant colors on me and prefer earthen ones instead...

 

[user 139760]

Lol I'm always in black, except two notable exceptions, pink because Bret Hart is cool and a Superman t-shirt, cos Superman ;-).

 

[Xpendable]

Do you like that a man has a talent or you like him for the effect that talent creates in others?

 

[Joturbo]

Rodent I think only you can know the answer but maybe it comes with age and experience but I know thinking back now I've always had more feminine traits right from an early age. Personally though not that my opinion matters a jot really  before that last paragraph I felt from your replies a really warm assured articulate confidence veering more to masculine than feminine. I can feel the feminine women melting into their keyboards as you speak and I feel a bit envious about that attribute that I can sense from your posts , (don't shoot me skafish but I'll pm you my addi for the cheque Rodent) no really I do genuinely think that. To me physical attributes aren't important because looking at me you'd probably think masculine but I am definitely more feminine inside.

On the question of kids do you think your zoning in on the kids you think don't like you. Because I'm a big kid at heart and you sound very likeable to me(bigger cheque please) .....bullish#t alert I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well but that's nothing new lol.

By the way I gotta a zebra Wolly print pair of socks too but I'm not sure if this is relevant......

...oh my lord, that's a bit much. I already had trouble digesting such a "compliment" when I got it from female friends (and my girlfriend), but you'd be the first man I hear it from in that manner. It doesn't make it any easier. The worst part is that some people on here know what I look like and it only supported that impression. I just don't see myself that way, but I reckon that's my problem.

It's not like kids openly tell me they hate me, but among my relatives I have mostly been ignored or mildly ridiculed by children of all ages so I can't really give them the benefit of the doubt. Overall I have no connection to kids whatsoever. But I don't want to talk honeysuckle about kids. After all, I don't exactly have a good connection to people in general.

PS: Yes, I have one pair of wooly socks but they are single-colored...

Well of course, biologically speaking we all have the same starting points. Anything afterwards is anyone's ballgame. For example, gay couple friends of mine. After only a 5 minute convo, you can clearly see they are men, identify as men and have definite, typically associated male behavior associated. So out goes the stereotype of one man being "more effiminate" in a gay relationship. So they are as much men as I am. Which leads me to think that "this is what a man is" labels or generalisations will always be, at best, highly speculative. You have to judge by individual or nothing, I think.

I also wear my daughters big pink "bearpaw" chausettes on weekends when she's not there (warm as hell lol) and I wouldn't think it plays any particular role in my masculinity. Wasnt it Bret Hart who wore "real men wear Pink" t-shirts? ;-)

See, I never really bought much into the "effeminate gay guy" stereotype. Gay men exist on a spectrum like everyone else and I don't know how wide that spectrum extends. For all we know, on the spectrum of gay men we might find the most masculine and most feminine men alike. To throw my own anecdote in here...I have gay colleagues at work who are married to each other. One is at least physically more masculine than the other (and also quite a bit older), but if I had to be honest I would consider them both more feminine-leaning in their behavior and interests, so I couldn't assign a "role" to either of them. If we want to go fully sociological, maybe the only reason why we have the effeminate stereotype is because of historical association of gay rights with feminists.

Speaking of which...pink is faded (masculine) royalty red and was originally a boy's color. Things change. Personally I still don't like pink and wouldn't wear it. I don't like any strong vibrant colors on me and prefer earthen ones instead...

Yea funny that I hate the colour pink and wouldn't be seen dead in it .The only time I wore it was for a couple of years from age about eight to ten merely because we was a a bit poor then and my mother couldn't afford a new pair of jeans after she had screwed up the colour mix in the wash fading my red (or whatever colour they were can't quite remember) ones lol but I wasn't bothered at the time. I prefer greys , browns and greens but if I could wear purple at work as part of my uniform I'd be quite happy with that......

 

[user 150037]

If I walked into a pub and tried talking to a girl, would she automatically assume that I was attempting to court her, and therefore be instantly repelled by me? I sometimes think of just going somewhere where I can talk to strangers - but I fear this assumption when it comes to approaching women.

Which is funny, cos I don't think about a guy I'm talking to thinking 'Back off, Buddy, I'm not that kind of bloke'.

 

[TheRealCallie]

If I walked into a pub and tried talking to a girl, would she automatically assume that I was attempting to court her, and therefore be instantly repelled by me? I sometimes think of just going somewhere where I can talk to strangers - but I fear this assumption when it comes to approaching women.

Which is funny, cos I don't think about a guy I'm talking to thinking 'Back off, Buddy, I'm not that kind of bloke'.

I suppose that entirely depends on how you approach her.  If it's just random small talk to the person in the general vicinity, probably not.  If you come on too strong or get into the wrong topic, it's possible, I suppose. 

Of course there will be some that will think any guy that even glances in their general direction wants to hit on them, but I really don't think there are a lot of those out there. 

As you said though, girls are not really much different than guys, so just be casual about it and don't worry so much.

 

[user 150037]

Thanks for the advice

 

[Jokeshopbeard]

My experience has been quite different. As somebody who talks to anyone, anywhere, I find that the younger and more attractive a female, the more likely she will assume off the bat that you're trying to hit on her. Therefore, insta-shield.

I can't blame them, given how many douchebags will actually be hitting on them (statistically, it's about 20% of men doing 80% of the cold approaches). I think I'd be pretty **** guarded if I had to deal with that all the time too.

 

[DarkSelene]

I don't generally assume that, but it says more about me than about the situation or girls in general.

Honestly, I think given the environment they'll assume that very easily. A pub, night club, bars in general... even at the gym! I don't think everyone will immediately put their shields up but I can see them trying to figure out your intentions. If you start small talk in other environments it might be different, like school, work, out in the world. Depending on your age the opportunity to meet new people irl becomes very diminished, for sure.

 

[Jokeshopbeard]

Of course an environment where one HAS to attend will be vastly different. Work/School/classes of any sort.

'Out in the world' is just that though. Believe me, I've been 'out in the world' all around the world.

Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but it still stands that it's tricky to cold approach an attractive female as a male.

 

[Amelia]

If I walked into a pub and tried talking to a girl, would she automatically assume that I was attempting to court her, and therefore be instantly repelled by me? I sometimes think of just going somewhere where I can talk to strangers - but I fear this assumption when it comes to approaching women.

Which is funny, cos I don't think about a guy I'm talking to thinking 'Back off, Buddy, I'm not that kind of bloke'.

If I get approached by a drunk/fairly tipsy (not steady on his feet, speaking incoherently) guy in a pub, I'd try to find some polite way of getting him to go away. 

Otherwise, I'd definitely engage in a conversation if he does strike one up. No, I wouldn't assume I was being courted. I'd just think he was a confident, friendly guy. Unless of course, there's flirting/lots of questions about single status etc. Then yeah.

---

Do you like that a man has a talent or you like him for the effect that talent creates in others?

The first. Whether or not his talent has any effect on others doesn't concern me.