Why am I pretending to be ok?

[user 139760]

Have to agree with Callie on that. The impression we don't have choice in our lives is biased by the way we view situations. We feel we don't have choice, because it's either not what or how we want it, but we do have the choice. The thing is, sometimes, we have to do violence to what we feel or believe is the logical or intelligent choice.
Often I've told myself I don't have a choice, but a few times, I realized that I did. I had to do violence to my own sense of self, but it made me discover I did have more choice that I realized. Although, as you pointed out, we are boxed in by societal norms and such, we DO have the choice to remain within said society or change societies. Moving to say, an Ameridian reserve, for example. Suddenly, living life and societal norms become very different, even in the very same country.

I view life in general as a big quiz, with multiple answers. We do have the choice. It's just that constantly only seeing A, B and C prevents us often from noticing D and E. I can personally relate to punching your boss in his face and while I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to everyone..........DAMMIT IT FELT FREAKING GOOD! Especially when you get clapped by your coworkers until you get to the door ;-)

Basically, what I mean is, choice is a DISPELLABLE illusion. You just have to look at it differently. Which is why third party opinions often gives you new insight into problems.

 

[Osiris]

Not if I want a wife and kids in the future, I don't have a choice. And choice is an illusion because the things you think now, has been influenced since the second you were born. I don't think you realise how big a thing choice is! What stops you telling your "Boss/teacher" to f*ck off when they're speaking down to you? Social conditioning is  what stops you! The wrong belief that someone has a right to be above you. I used to get in a lot of trouble at school because I wouldn't let something slide If I knew the "teacher" was wrong. Try and tell me there isn't a cure to cancer when pharmaceutical companies keep buying the cures. Long story short, choice is an illusion your choices are a mixture of your parents and societies views. Not your own.

I know exactly how big a thing choice is.  I CHOSE to stay with my abusive ex.  I CHOOSE to have two jobs so I don't have to rely on my ex's money to survive.  I CHOSE to better myself so I was a worthless piece of **** anymore.  I could have CHOSEN to let my ex come back the three times he wanted to.  

I didn't have to choose any of those, I could have stayed living the way I was.  I could choose to get a babysitter and do whatever the hell I want, whenever I want.  I could go out and blow all my money and live on next to nothing like my ex does.  I could be a drug addicted alcoholic.  CHOICES are yours to make.  Yes, you have to live with the consequences of those choices, but they are still YOURS to make.

See I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You didn't choose to stay with your abusive ex, social conditioning told you that he was a good match for you in the first place. Here's an extract from wiki "Social conditioning is the sociological process of training individuals in a society to respond in a manner generally approved by the society in general and peer groups within society" what I'm trying to say is you might never of wanted a man or kids but society told you that's what you should do. I'm guilty of it too, we all are. It's so deeply ingrained we don't even know when we're doing it.

 

[Osiris]

Have to agree with Callie on that. The impression we don't have choice in our lives is biased by the way we view situations. We feel we don't have choice, because it's either not what or how we want it, but we do have the choice. The thing is, sometimes, we have to do violence to what we feel or believe is the logical or intelligent choice.
Often I've told myself I don't have a choice, but a few times, I realized that I did. I had to do violence to my own sense of self, but it made me discover I did have more choice that I realized. Although, as you pointed out, we are boxed in by societal norms and such, we DO have the choice to remain within said society or change societies. Moving to say, an Ameridian reserve, for example. Suddenly, living life and societal norms become very different, even in the very same country.

I view life in general as a big quiz, with multiple answers. We do have the choice. It's just that constantly only seeing A, B and C prevents us often from noticing D and E. I can personally relate to punching your boss in his face and while I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to everyone..........DAMMIT IT FELT FREAKING GOOD! Especially when you get clapped by your coworkers until you get to the door ;-)

Basically, what I mean is, choice is a DISPELLABLE illusion. You just have to look at it differently. Which is why third party opinions often gives you new insight into problems.

I think choice in general is unnatural. Animals don't think, they just do. When you punched your boss the reason it felt so good is you were doing exactly what you wanted. Breaking the social conditioning for just a few seconds thats why people clapped you. They all wanted to do the exact same thing but didn't, ask yourself why they didn't. Animals rarely get depressed unless they think. Like how some primates can get post natal depression. Social conditioning is what tells us to walk on the pavement and go through doors not windows (Even if it made more sense to climb through a window than walk around an entire building) you may not see the conditioning as it happens, but believe me it's always there.

 

[user 139760]

I think choice in general is unnatural. Animals don't think, they just do. When you punched your boss the reason it felt so good is you were doing exactly what you wanted. Breaking the social conditioning for just a few seconds thats why people clapped you. They all wanted to do the exact same thing but didn't, ask yourself why they didn't. Animals rarely get depressed unless they think. Like how some primates can get post natal depression. Social conditioning is what tells us to walk on the pavement and go through doors not windows (Even if it made more sense to climb through a window than walk around an entire building) you may not see the conditioning as it happens, but believe me it's always there.

LOL Indeed. Actually, though, I think maybe you might have it the other way around; instinct doesn't give us a choice. In your comparison to animals, as you eloquently stated, they didn't choose, they just did; we DO have that power and the intellect to decide what we want to do with it. We are not bound by social conventions we do not agree with and while there are consequences to not obeying them, we still have to choice on wether or not we want to obey them, or exit said society to be bound by different ones.
I can only speak for myself, not for others, but I pretty much always considered myself an anticonformist. Didn't punch the dude because I couldn't; punched him because he was an ass ;-) I obey laws not because I necessarily want to, but because I find them to be just and useful. If I did not, I wouldn't. I smoke still, not because society tells me it's a bad thing (and, as you can see with publicity, BOY are they trying to lol) but because I decided I wanted to. As simple as that.
While some people are probably more fearful of breaking social conventions, I can name quite a few that aren't. In fact, most people do, sometimes without even knowing. So we DO have the choice. It's just that we think we don't because it's hard/scary/difficult or some other thing.
I think it's really a matter of how you want others to perceive you. I'm personally me, and while I'm happy if people like me, I don't look for that validation, hence, they can perceive whatever they want. Ain't going to stop me from finding people I like that like me too ;-)

That's just my two cents though. I'm not heavily into the whole "Free will is an illusion" debate, don't really know much about it. Just think it's too heavy a subject to tackle without 20 people, a nice keg of beer and a lot of free time ;-)

EDIT: I'm too old to go climbing windows. I'll watch, you do it lol.

 

[Osiris]

I think choice in general is unnatural. Animals don't think, they just do. When you punched your boss the reason it felt so good is you were doing exactly what you wanted. Breaking the social conditioning for just a few seconds thats why people clapped you. They all wanted to do the exact same thing but didn't, ask yourself why they didn't. Animals rarely get depressed unless they think. Like how some primates can get post natal depression. Social conditioning is what tells us to walk on the pavement and go through doors not windows (Even if it made more sense to climb through a window than walk around an entire building) you may not see the conditioning as it happens, but believe me it's always there.

LOL Indeed. Actually, though, I think maybe you might have it the other way around; instinct doesn't give us a choice. In your comparison to animals, as you eloquently stated, they didn't choose, they just did; we DO have that power and the intellect to decide what we want to do with it. We are not bound by social conventions we do not agree with and while there are consequences to not obeying them, we still have to choice on wether or not we want to obey them, or exit said society to be bound by different ones.
I can only speak for myself, not for others, but I pretty much always considered myself an anticonformist. Didn't punch the dude because I couldn't; punched him because he was an ass ;-) I obey laws not because I necessarily want to, but because I find them to be just and useful. If I did not, I wouldn't. I smoke still, not because society tells me it's a bad thing (and, as you can see with publicity, BOY are they trying to lol) but because I decided I wanted to. As simple as that.
While some people are probably more fearful of breaking social conventions, I can name quite a few that aren't. In fact, most people do, sometimes without even knowing. So we DO have the choice. It's just that we think we don't because it's hard/scary/difficult or some other thing.
I think it's really a matter of how you want others to perceive you. I'm personally me, and while I'm happy if people like me, I don't look for that validation, hence, they can perceive whatever they want. Ain't going to stop me from finding people I like that like me too ;-)

That's just my two cents though. I'm not heavily into the whole "Free will is an illusion" debate, don't really know much about it. Just think it's too heavy a subject to tackle without 20 people, a nice keg of beer and a lot of free time ;-)

EDIT: I'm too old to go climbing windows. I'll watch, you do it lol.

Lol I'll give you a leg up, you'll be fine! You think you have a choice, but like you said this is wayyy too big a subject. I could go into a long thing about social conditioning from the time of the Babylonians and assyrians but It would take way too long and I'd probably end up offending people. Like how satan is rebellious and god controls for your own good. *Coughs* Government. *Coughs* Royalty. Oh bad cough! Ain't it a shame we can't sit with a few beers and chat about this. I bet after a few drinks we'd be speaking about multidimensional shapeshifting entities XD

 

[user 139760]

I think choice in general is unnatural. Animals don't think, they just do. When you punched your boss the reason it felt so good is you were doing exactly what you wanted. Breaking the social conditioning for just a few seconds thats why people clapped you. They all wanted to do the exact same thing but didn't, ask yourself why they didn't. Animals rarely get depressed unless they think. Like how some primates can get post natal depression. Social conditioning is what tells us to walk on the pavement and go through doors not windows (Even if it made more sense to climb through a window than walk around an entire building) you may not see the conditioning as it happens, but believe me it's always there.

Lol I'll give you a leg up, you'll be fine! You think you have a choice, but like you said this is wayyy too big a subject. I could go into a long thing about social conditioning from the time of the Babylonians and assyrians but It would take way too long and I'd probably end up offending people. Like how satan is rebellious and god controls for your own good. *Coughs* Government. *Coughs* Royalty. Oh bad cough! Ain't it a shame we can't sit with a few beers and chat about this. I bet after a few drinks we'd be speaking about multidimensional shapeshifting entities XD

Interdimensional beings?
Ah see, DEFINETELY NOT. Because Indiana Jones 4's plot is something I'd rather wish to forget. ;-)

 

[Osiris]

I think choice in general is unnatural. Animals don't think, they just do. When you punched your boss the reason it felt so good is you were doing exactly what you wanted. Breaking the social conditioning for just a few seconds thats why people clapped you. They all wanted to do the exact same thing but didn't, ask yourself why they didn't. Animals rarely get depressed unless they think. Like how some primates can get post natal depression. Social conditioning is what tells us to walk on the pavement and go through doors not windows (Even if it made more sense to climb through a window than walk around an entire building) you may not see the conditioning as it happens, but believe me it's always there.

Lol I'll give you a leg up, you'll be fine! You think you have a choice, but like you said this is wayyy too big a subject. I could go into a long thing about social conditioning from the time of the Babylonians and assyrians but It would take way too long and I'd probably end up offending people. Like how satan is rebellious and god controls for your own good. *Coughs* Government. *Coughs* Royalty. Oh bad cough! Ain't it a shame we can't sit with a few beers and chat about this. I bet after a few drinks we'd be speaking about multidimensional shapeshifting entities XD

Interdimensional beings?
Ah see, DEFINETELY NOT. Because Indiana Jones 4's plot is something I'd rather wish to forget. ;-)

If you watch south park, you'll be thinking exactly what I'm thinking LMAO!

 

[TheRealCallie]

Not if I want a wife and kids in the future, I don't have a choice. And choice is an illusion because the things you think now, has been influenced since the second you were born. I don't think you realise how big a thing choice is! What stops you telling your "Boss/teacher" to f*ck off when they're speaking down to you? Social conditioning is  what stops you! The wrong belief that someone has a right to be above you. I used to get in a lot of trouble at school because I wouldn't let something slide If I knew the "teacher" was wrong. Try and tell me there isn't a cure to cancer when pharmaceutical companies keep buying the cures. Long story short, choice is an illusion your choices are a mixture of your parents and societies views. Not your own.

I know exactly how big a thing choice is.  I CHOSE to stay with my abusive ex.  I CHOOSE to have two jobs so I don't have to rely on my ex's money to survive.  I CHOSE to better myself so I was a worthless piece of **** anymore.  I could have CHOSEN to let my ex come back the three times he wanted to.  

I didn't have to choose any of those, I could have stayed living the way I was.  I could choose to get a babysitter and do whatever the hell I want, whenever I want.  I could go out and blow all my money and live on next to nothing like my ex does.  I could be a drug addicted alcoholic.  CHOICES are yours to make.  Yes, you have to live with the consequences of those choices, but they are still YOURS to make.

See I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You didn't choose to stay with your abusive ex, social conditioning told you that he was a good match for you in the first place. Here's an extract from wiki "Social conditioning is the sociological process of training individuals in a society to respond in a manner generally approved by the society in general and peer groups within society" what I'm trying to say is you might never of wanted a man or kids but society told you that's what you should do. I'm guilty of it too, we all are. It's so deeply ingrained we don't even know when we're doing it.

Um, excuse me?  Have you ever been in an abusive relationship?  Do you know what it's like?  Do you know what it does to you?  Judging by what you wrote, I'm inclined to say you haven't. 

Society didn't tell me ****.  Society didn't condition anything. The reason I stayed is because my self esteem was so damn low and I hated myself so damn much and the verbal abuse was so damn much that I didn't think I could have better.  Society had NOTHING to do with that.  My brain had EVERYTHING to do with that.  MY brain, not society's. 

Also, he WAS a good match for me.  If he hadn't become an abusive, cheating alcoholic, he would likely STILL be a good match for me.  You don't know my situation, so don't assume you know what I did what I did.  I couldn't care less what society tells me I should do.  If I did care what society thinks, I likely would have chosen the better looking, taller guy that was with my ex.  So yeah, sorry, you'd be wrong on every count.

 

[Osiris]

Not if I want a wife and kids in the future, I don't have a choice. And choice is an illusion because the things you think now, has been influenced since the second you were born. I don't think you realise how big a thing choice is! What stops you telling your "Boss/teacher" to f*ck off when they're speaking down to you? Social conditioning is  what stops you! The wrong belief that someone has a right to be above you. I used to get in a lot of trouble at school because I wouldn't let something slide If I knew the "teacher" was wrong. Try and tell me there isn't a cure to cancer when pharmaceutical companies keep buying the cures. Long story short, choice is an illusion your choices are a mixture of your parents and societies views. Not your own.

I know exactly how big a thing choice is.  I CHOSE to stay with my abusive ex.  I CHOOSE to have two jobs so I don't have to rely on my ex's money to survive.  I CHOSE to better myself so I was a worthless piece of **** anymore.  I could have CHOSEN to let my ex come back the three times he wanted to.  

I didn't have to choose any of those, I could have stayed living the way I was.  I could choose to get a babysitter and do whatever the hell I want, whenever I want.  I could go out and blow all my money and live on next to nothing like my ex does.  I could be a drug addicted alcoholic.  CHOICES are yours to make.  Yes, you have to live with the consequences of those choices, but they are still YOURS to make.

See I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You didn't choose to stay with your abusive ex, social conditioning told you that he was a good match for you in the first place. Here's an extract from wiki "Social conditioning is the sociological process of training individuals in a society to respond in a manner generally approved by the society in general and peer groups within society" what I'm trying to say is you might never of wanted a man or kids but society told you that's what you should do. I'm guilty of it too, we all are. It's so deeply ingrained we don't even know when we're doing it.

Um, excuse me?  Have you ever been in an abusive relationship?  Do you know what it's like?  Do you know what it does to you?  Judging by what you wrote, I'm inclined to say you haven't. 

Society didn't tell me ****.  Society didn't condition anything. The reason I stayed is because my self esteem was so damn low and I hated myself so damn much and the verbal abuse was so damn much that I didn't think I could have better.  Society had NOTHING to do with that.  My brain had EVERYTHING to do with that.  MY brain, not society's. 

Also, he WAS a good match for me.  If he hadn't become an abusive, cheating alcoholic, he would likely STILL be a good match for me.  You don't know my situation, so don't assume you know what I did what I did.  I couldn't care less what society tells me I should do.  If I did care what society thinks, I likely would have chosen the better looking, taller guy that was with my ex.  So yeah, sorry, you'd be wrong on every count.

Actually you ended up agreeing with me without knowing it. As a baby were you were born with low self esteem? No, you were conditioned to believe you didn't deserve better. There's no need to get defensive, I'm not having a go. I just want you to see that we are all born a blank piece of paper. And everything that happens from that moment on affects that blank piece of paper.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Society had nothing to do with my low self esteem. Years of verbal abuse did. That's not society, that is ONE PERSON. There is a difference.

 

[Osiris]

Society had nothing to do with my low self esteem.  Years of verbal abuse did.  That's not society, that is ONE PERSON. There is a difference.

....

 

[M_also_lonely]

I wonder why some people choose to be abused verbally. That too, for years

 

[Osiris]

I wonder why some people choose to be abused verbally. That too, for years

You summed up what I was trying to say perfectly, thank you!

 

[DarkSelene]

I don't want to intrude in this conversation because I haven't even read the whole thing but I don't think social conditioning applies here. It could explain why a lot of people feel like a failure for not getting married and having children, why people usually follow their parents religion without ever questioning what they believe in or even just feeling the need to have a religion and label what they believe, can explain a lot of automatic behaviors and emotional patterns (like a midlife crisis, lol) - but there are a lot of factors contributing for someone to be in an abusive relationship, not even just low self-esteem can explain it.

It's natural trying to find a condition or justification for when things go the wrong way, and a lot of factors can contribute to where one's life ends up but you have some responsibility too. Sorry.

 

[Osiris]

I don't want to intrude in this conversation because I haven't even read the whole thing but I don't think social conditioning applies here. It could explain why a lot of people feel like a failure for not getting married and having children, why people usually follow their parents religion without ever questioning what they believe in or even just feeling the need to have a religion and label what they believe, can explain a lot of automatic behaviors and emotional patterns (like a midlife crisis, lol) - but there are a lot of factors contributing for someone to be in an abusive relationship, not even just low self-esteem can explain it.

It's natural trying to find a condition or justification for when things go the wrong way, and a lot of factors can contribute to where one's life ends up but you have some responsibility too. Sorry.

Actually In a way you don't have much responsibility. When people breed dogs to be dangerous the puppies don't come out like that. They've been trained to be like that! So why are we different? We're not! The illusion of choice for a dog placed in a fight is "I want to win, I want to kill" but if trained correctly they could be in a park off the leash like any other dog. We may not be dogs, but our brains are hardwired in the same way.

 

[DarkSelene]

Are you free from it because you can perceive it? I mean, if you're enlightened about this lack of choice doesn't that mean you should be able to ignore those instincts, or whatever you want to call it, and be truly free? Is any path you follow, any decision you make - even if controversial - just a product of the conditioning?

Seems like a very good way to live, if you ask me. No responsibility, no consequences... smart way to avoid feeling accountable.

 

[M_also_lonely]

Actually In a way you don't have much responsibility. When people breed dogs to be dangerous the puppies don't come out like that. They've been trained to be like that! So why are we different? We're not! The illusion of choice for a dog placed in a fight is "I want to win, I want to kill" but if trained correctly they could be in a park off the leash like any other dog. We may not be dogs, but our brains are hardwired in the same way.


I know what she is trying to say. And what the other she is trying to say. But the other she puts it in a really bad way. Because by that one would justify a lot of things. She wants to say that you are responsible for how you take it. Like someone comes and speaks swear words on you. You can choose to either take it or not. Or someone makes fun of you and you can choose not to be offended. Such a thing would make you a much happier person. But the way it is put, by taking the idea of choice too far, says that for anything that happened to you even by a third party, you yourself are to blame.  But from what I have observed by interacting them, is that they should practice what they preach. Which they don't. A big question is: Why not? Isn't everything a choice?
Now this is inappropriate, in my opinion. Its like telling a girl: "It was your choice that you got abused (can't use that word) by that man." And if she says no, telling her: "That's an excuse."  This is wrong. 
Not every behavior of ours is a choice. Our actions are a result of our beliefs. And we form our beliefs by interacting with our surroundings and the experience we get from them. Otherwise, every human would have same beliefs and thinking: The most efficient beliefs and thinking. But that is not the case.

 

[Osiris]

Are you free from it because you can perceive it? I mean, if you're enlightened about this lack of choice doesn't that mean you should be able to ignore those instincts, or whatever you want to call it, and be truly free? Is any path you follow, any decision you make - even if controversial - just a product of the conditioning?

Seems like a very good way to live, if you ask me. No responsibility, no consequences... smart way to avoid feeling accountable.

Yes and no. If you consciously decided to be evil, you're evil. But thats different from not knowing any better, and doing what you've known your whole life. "if you're enlightened about this lack of choice doesn't that mean you should be able to ignore those instincts, or whatever you want to call it, and be truly free?" Again yes and no.  It's easier too yes. But as a kid, did you never see a puddle while riding your bike but couldn't slow down in time? It's the exact same thing. Then imagine choosing to go through that puddle knowing you could have slowed down and that it was going to upset your mother after buying you new shoes...
I'm Buddhist. We believe in a thing called "Anatta" A quote from wiki "Anattā doctrine denies that there is anything called a 'Self' in any person or anything else, and that a belief in 'Self' is a source of Dukkha (suffering, pain, unsatisfactoriness)" that doesn't mean that as a buddhist I ignore karma, but there's a difference from genuinely choosing to be bad "Good upbringing, decides to be an *sshole" than someone who has been born into it and doesn't know any better. I hope this helped.

 

[Osiris]

Any moderators please feel free to move this to the "up for debate" forum. Thank you.

 

[VanillaCreme]

I wonder why some people choose to be abused verbally. That too, for years

You summed up what I was trying to say perfectly, thank you!

It's not always that easy to get out. A lot of things aren't so cut-paste-dry.