Questions for the Women

[TheRealCallie]

I can't be bothered to read through all this thread, but I do have a question to women.

Why do you put some guys into an ever-lasting 'friendzone'? I mean a person with who it is good to talk about many things and fun to spend time with, but never ever anything more than that?

I have never got my head around that.

Personally if I feel someone is good to talk to and spend time with, I am open to anything. Because I view it as a pretty significant connection. And I am not going to reject it for some minor 'issue'.

Because if we aren't attracted to someone, we aren't going to take it to another level.  Sometimes attraction does happen later down the road, sometimes it doesn't, so unless or until that attraction happens, you are a friend.

 

[user 139760]

I can't be bothered to read through all this thread, but I do have a question to women.

Why do you put some guys into an ever-lasting 'friendzone'? I mean a person with who it is good to talk about many things and fun to spend time with, but never ever anything more than that?

I have never got my head around that.

Personally if I feel someone is good to talk to and spend time with, I am open to anything. Because I view it as a pretty significant connection. And I am not going to reject it for some minor 'issue'.

If I might answer, although I'll leave women to answer it first and foremost, I found that a LOT (more than you might know) are completely foreign and alien to the concept of "good" men. They don't have wise, intelligent, not crazy and insecure men in their lives who run around beating their chest and oozing testosterone. King of like the stereotipical "gay" friend you see in movies.
So when they find a guy that's like that, a lot of them want to keep that relationship and not spoil it with dating. Because they inherently know they won't find a lot of guys like that.
To a lot of us, it just looks like they like "jerks". Thing is, and I'm sorry gentlemen if it doesn't apply to you, but most men I've met in my life are jerks. Save a handful, I wouldn't trust them with making Kool Aid, much less treating a girl intelligently.
That's my theory anyway, from careful observation. It's not like I got anything better to do.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I can't be bothered to read through all this thread, but I do have a question to women.

Why do you put some guys into an ever-lasting 'friendzone'? I mean a person with who it is good to talk about many things and fun to spend time with, but never ever anything more than that?

I have never got my head around that.

Personally if I feel someone is good to talk to and spend time with, I am open to anything. Because I view it as a pretty significant connection. And I am not going to reject it for some minor 'issue'.

Not a woman, but I do have experience with this.  I've thought the same things as you many times and just about broken my brain over it.  I feel the same as you, that if someone is good to talk to and spend time with, I'm open to more, I don't see why not.   It doesn't matter to me if a woman is rich or not, ambitious or not (to an extent, but I cut more slack than most), or if she has trouble with social skills and wasn't "cool" growing up.  I don't care if a woman is insecure, life's hard and we all have problems, it's hard to do things well, hard to make money, hard to get on a path that's actually any good and to even think you can.  And I don't believe anyone who acts like they're strong all the time, so for someone to open up to me about their problems is real to me, and a sign of trust.  I actually respect it more than someone who acts like they are flawless.  But I feel like it doesn't work the same way for women as it does for men. 

Getting stuck on friendship seems to mean a guy is insufficient, too bland, not exciting enough, not making a good enough or big enough impression, has too many problems, not coming off like they're in control of their life, not good enough or "cool" enough.  What is "cool"?  I don't know.  I've been trying to break it down all my life.

It seems to me that being good enough, "cool" enough, is the result of being dominant, or doing things well.  I've never been able to be dominant and I've always thought it was dumb and distasteful and a big damn lie, and I was always unsure of my ability to do anything well, so I've come off as a loser without meaning to.   I come off as insecure because I don't come off like I know what I'm doing, because I don't.  I just BURN to show the world I can be better than that, but I don't know how, or if I even can.  I want to be someone who does well, and I don't want to be a "friend", I don't want to be bland, insufficient, weak.  I see other guys who wind up in the "friend" category and I don't want to be like them at all, I never have.  They project weakness, incompetence, ineptitude - all things I want to be as far away from as possible (not saying you are, cause I have this problem too).  I want to feel like I have some punch to me, some energy.  But my personality just isn't that of a cold, cocky ***-kicker, or a smooth Don Juan, and I don't want to be like those guys either cause I think they're full of it.  I'm sensitive, and I show my feelings.  I get enthusiastic about stuff.  I don't act like I'm too cool to care about anything and that nothing matters to me, that's always seemed fake and forced.  But being real hasn't worked for me either so I'm at wit's end.  

All I know is that I used to believe someone would like me just because, and that the right person would be someone I didn't need to impress.  But that's never happened, and I don't believe that anymore.  I think you have to impress a woman somehow for her to feel attraction, otherwise she thinks of you as a friend/loser, beneath her.  I just don't believe how people try to candycoat it and say that there's no such thing as status games or leagues, because in my experience, those things are very real.  I also don't believe that it's random because it seems to always be the same kind of guys who get to have relationships, and the same kind of guys who get stuck at friendship.  It almost always plays out the same way so I think it's safe to say there's a pattern at work.  

If I had to guess I'd say be as impressive as you can, and try to minimize your insecurities, fears, flaws etc. as much as possible - all the while looking like you're not doing anything on purpose.  Timidity in guys is something that most women just don't have patience for.  It is a ******* head game for sure.  It's been hard for me because I've never felt powerful and I just can't pretend that I'm powerful and that I have all the answers when I don't feel like it.  I guess we just have to find some kind of way.  I don't know. It reminds me of math class, where I had no idea what the answer was or how to arrive at it.  All I can say is that I'd love to beat it one day, to be able to hold my head up high and say I ******* broke this friend zone *********, I kicked its *** for good, sent it to hell where it will never have power over me again.  But I just don't know if I can ever be strong enough, deep enough, or good enough.

I don't really have an answer to your question, I just sympathize with you and I hope you too can beat this someday and live the way you really want to.

If I might answer, although I'll leave women to answer it first and foremost, I found that a LOT (more than you might know) are completely foreign and alien to the concept of "good" men. They don't have wise, intelligent, not crazy and insecure men in their lives who run around beating their chest and oozing testosterone. King of like the stereotipical "gay" friend you see in movies.
So when they find a guy that's like that, a lot of them want to keep that relationship and not spoil it with dating. Because they inherently know they won't find a lot of guys like that.
To a lot of us, it just looks like they like "jerks". Thing is, and I'm sorry gentlemen if it doesn't apply to you, but most men I've met in my life are jerks. Save a handful, I wouldn't trust them with making Kool Aid, much less treating a girl intelligently.
That's my theory anyway, from careful observation. It's not like I got anything better to do.

I feel like a lot of men are jerks too, because they think it's cool to be jerks, to make bad decisions on purpose, to be backwards, to make sure everyone sees them doing taboo things, to be as unpleasant as possible like it's the ultimate thing to aspire to, because it's all about showing the world that you're dominant.  But the chest-beating testosterone freaks seem to do pretty well to me.  Better than anyone else, by a long shot. They have a way of coming off as exciting, and I don't know how to do that without being one, I don't know how i can come off as more exciting than them. I don't know how i can be flashier, i don't know how i can shout over their noise.  I never see a chest-beater fail and get forced to settle, much less wind up alone.  It never ceases to both amaze me, and piss me off.  It makes me so angry because I believe I'm better-looking, smarter, have better tastes, more stable, more trustworthy, more honest, and could maybe potentially be more interesting than these stupid sons of *******, and even if I don't have it all together at least I'm trying, which is more than I can say for them and their (self-)destructive ways that they do for bragging rights and/or because they have serious issues. That's probably the biggest thing, I don't see how a woman can respect a self-destructive guy. Like, how, why?!?! Or how I lose points for being unambitious, but other guys get a pass for the exact same behavior, even worse. I thought I was being more enlightened and mature by not being a chest beater, and I really believed in being that way, it was not just an act - but damn, I just don't know.  I still don't, and can't, be a chest beater.  But I guess to women, being insecure is even worse.  I don't know what else even works, besides having yourself together insanely well, to a level that I don't even know is possible for me and if it is, it would take a very long time, so long that by the time i do it might not even matter anymore.  And even if I did, I don't know that it would make any difference anyway.

I just wish I could find some other way to come across. I don't want to be another dirty, stupid, cliche rebel, but I sure as hell don't want to be the "gay" best friend either. No offense to anyone who is gay, but I am not, and that's not the impression I want to make. I want women to see that just because I'm not a rebellious knuckle-dragger, doesn't make me any less of a man. I'm still the real deal.

 

[ardour]

I can't be bothered to read through all this thread, but I do have a question to women.

Why do you put some guys into an ever-lasting 'friendzone'? I mean a person with who it is good to talk about many things and fun to spend time with, but never ever anything more than that?

I have never got my head around that.

Personally if I feel someone is good to talk to and spend time with, I am open to anything. Because I view it as a pretty significant connection. And I am not going to reject it for some minor 'issue'.

Because if we aren't attracted to someone, we aren't going to take it to another level.  Sometimes attraction does happen later down the road, sometimes it doesn't, so unless or until that attraction happens, you are a friend.

This seems like a most common sense answer...

SilentLife there's plenty of MRA type material online discussing the friendzone, women rejecting decent men and only liking alpha 'bad boy' types and so on, but it's negative and self-defeating stuff.

I honestly I would not talk about 'friendzone' around female friends or acquaitances since you're likely to be harshly judged for using that term.

 

[kamya]

[youtube]Mm9tt0v9uXA[/youtube]

How valid is this breakdown? Ladies pls comment. :O

 

[Amelia]

I can't be bothered to read through all this thread, but I do have a question to women.

Why do you put some guys into an ever-lasting 'friendzone'? I mean a person with who it is good to talk about many things and fun to spend time with, but never ever anything more than that?

I have never got my head around that.

Personally if I feel someone is good to talk to and spend time with, I am open to anything. Because I view it as a pretty significant connection. And I am not going to reject it for some minor 'issue'.

I have to disagree with the concept of friendzoning at least from a woman's point of view. There's no such thing as a woman forever labelling a man as a friend. I know MANY women who ended up marrying or dating their male friends (some they have known for years in a platonic way before getting tog). And I know quite a nunber of guys who have told me they didn't feel any attraction to their female friends, but somewhere down the road things changed and sort of just happened. Of course you can't predict or control these things. It may just happen that a man and a woman may end up being friends forever.

If a girl says to a guy let's be friends, it just means she likes him enough to want to hang out with him (or she wants to turn him down without hurting his feelings in her view). Either way, it simply means a. you put aside your romantic expectations and be grateful that you have another human being interested in your company or b. give it up and try meeting someone else. It's up to you.

Also, many women (yes, we also have our personal struggles with dating), may have had bad experiences with men in the past. It is very common for a woman to meet men who seem super nice and friendly and genuine, only to be dumped after being intimate or dumped for not wanting to be intimate. So, it is normal for us to be guarded around men we kind of like. We want to see if the guy is capable of respect and just enjoying her company as a person without the sexual stuff first. And there are many wonderful men out there who can do this. They take it easy and see where things go. They don't blame the woman if she doesn't reciprocate because none of us can control this stuff.

I am sorry if this is sounding like a rant but as a woman, I feel super offended when some men undermine the struggles we face when dating and then they generalise us all to like jerks just because a minority of us do and the worst is when they get angry with us for offering friendship when we do so genuinely because we do like you (we just don't feel any sexual attraction at this precise moment). 

Different women seek different things in men, there's never going to be a general answer to a subjective question. Some of us like domineering men (that's not a bad thing), some of us like quieter men, some of us are attracted to money (again, not a bad thing, to each her own), some of us are attracted to personality (doesn't always have to be confidence, being a good natured guy who makes us feel good, happy is enough too), some of us are tolerant, some not. 

And that is the same thing for men. Some want hot girls, some want funny girls, some like the quiet ones, some prefer boisterous ones.

My advice is a. don't beat yourself up when you are rejected (we all get rejected, some repeatedly). b. don't make a woman feel like she is either going to be a romantic pursuit or nothing at all (for many of us, it's a warning sign) and c. just be yourself (you seem like a wonderful guy), and keep trying. 

My longest post ever but one final note, I acknowledge that sometimes people generalise because they're frustrated and upset because of what they've experienced and so if your post was more for venting than actually seeking a response, please ignore all this.

 

[SilentLife]

Thanks for all the thoughts here.

On reflection I have to say that perhaps 'friendzone' isn't the best word. Better expression would simply be "not being good enough". However, the situation remains the same regardless of which words to use.

Personally I can feel that many women kind of look down on me, particularly when I show any signs of sensitiveness, which I can't help due to my nature.

The issue with sensitive men is that we have basically no "macho elements". However, usually women want the best of both worlds, i.e a man to be a good man, but also have macho elements.

It could even be the next question here - what is unattractive about sensitiveness?

 

[TheRealCallie]

Thanks for all the thoughts here.

On reflection I have to say that perhaps 'friendzone' isn't the best word. Better expression would simply be "not being good enough". However, the situation remains the same regardless of which words to use.

Personally I can feel that many women kind of look down on me, particularly when I show any signs of sensitiveness, which I can't help due to my nature.

The issue with sensitive men is that we have basically no "macho elements". However, usually women want the best of both worlds, i.e a man to be a good man, but also have macho elements.

It could even be the next question here - what is unattractive about sensitiveness?

Not being good enough isn't the right word(s) either.  You obviously are good enough to be in her life.  I get that you want a girlfriend and not just another friend, but what's wrong with having another friend?  Friends typically have other friends and/or relatives that you could potentially be set up with.

Sensitive guys generally lack confidence, which is something that most girls will find attractive. 

But let's look at this another way and I mean NO offense by anything I'm about to say, so please don't look at it like that.  
Okay, you are here, everyone else asking "what is attractive" and "why am I not good enough" is here for a reason.  You most likely have more issues than just being lonely.  While you may not always have the same issues, there is a common denominator.  A lack of confidence, a lack of self esteem, a desperate desire to get a girlfriend so you aren't alone, etc etc etc.  Maybe it's one of those or all of those, I don't know.  My point is that women (and men, in case girls are reading this) can pick up on that.  Little to no confidence, little to no self esteem,  desperation are just NOT attractive qualities.  Yes, there aresome girls (and guys) out that will have the whole "damsel in distress" (excuse the phrase) trigger and will want to "save" you, but that generally isn't going to work out either. 

So, where am I going with this?  You need to work on yourself.  If you aren't happy with yourself, how is another person going to be happy with you?  Friends are different, friends aren't with you as much as a girlfriend is, they aren't as emotionally vested in a way. 

I don't know, maybe I'm way off base and you aren't here for those reasons, but think about it.

 

[SilentLife]

I am just asking questions, and would like to get some insight.

I don't call it desperation on my part. I have been living for pretty long already and been "waiting" a lot, while most others have relationships already in their teens. I think my patience levels are pretty good to put it this way. At the very least my patience has been tested much more than it is the case with most people. I would like to see, how most others could cope with living all their life alone, I bet not as well as I have managed thus far.

As for finding "another friend". Usually I am not proposing myself (for a relationship) immediately. It is not my way, I take my time. Firstly I would like to get to know her a bit. Once I get to know more and more, she starts to grow on me. Obviously I don't grow on her, so there it goes.

Obviously I am not perfect, so I can admit I indeed have "issues" as you mention. Then again, who hasn't? All people have some issues, so I am not afraid to admit that I am not a perfect person.

 

[Nicolelt]

Thanks for all the thoughts here.

On reflection I have to say that perhaps 'friendzone' isn't the best word. Better expression would simply be "not being good enough". However, the situation remains the same regardless of which words to use.

Personally I can feel that many women kind of look down on me, particularly when I show any signs of sensitiveness, which I can't help due to my nature.

The issue with sensitive men is that we have basically no "macho elements". However, usually women want the best of both worlds, i.e a man to be a good man, but also have macho elements.

It could even be the next question here - what is unattractive about sensitiveness?

I wouldn't say it's not being good enough just not what "I" want. Someone would want, but not me personally. I have put guys in the "friendzone" (you can hate me if you want) and it's because they didn't have the qualities of a person I wanted to be in that kind of relationship with. They weren't bad, just not for me.

As far for the sensitive thing, I'm not sure how old you are, but I feel like that is a maturity thing. There was a time when the big bad macho man was all I wanted, but to be honest it's not that great. I grew up and matured, and guys like that have no appeal for me emotionally. As long as my husband opens jars, and picks up dead animals for me, that's about all the macho I need on a daily basis. It's nice to be with someone sympathize with me. Some women though, never get to that stage.

Now, I think there is overly-sensitive, but that gauges from person to person. I may think someone is overly sensitive, but the next girl by me thinks it's normal. Honestly, it's how much you can deal with as a mate. I can only handle so much, but another woman may be a damn psychologist when it comes to a guy.

 

[SilentLife]

As far for the sensitive thing, I'm not sure how old you are, but I feel like that is a maturity thing.

I am 31.

By the way, I feel like here is some misunderstanding going on, what "sensitive" means.

In my case being sensitive means the genes I was born with. Which means everything affects and influences me more than an average person.

Doesn't matter, how old or mature I am, I am always going to be "sensitive" as such.

Some insight into what I mean.
http://hsperson.com/

 

[VanillaCreme]

It could even be the next question here - what is unattractive about sensitiveness?

For me, it's annoying. I'm not an emotional thinker nor do I react on emotions. It doesn't help that I think too many people of society today are overly sensitive, and some people are just because they're told they should be offended. It's just ridiculous to me.

 

[SilentLife]

For me, it's annoying. I'm not an emotional thinker nor do I react on emotions. It doesn't help that I think too many people of society today are overly sensitive, and some people are just because they're told they should be offended. It's just ridiculous to me.

There seems to be a contradiction, or should I say an overlap.

You say "most of the society is overly sensitive", but then again most of the people do get into relationships.

So this means at least part of that "overly sensitive" society finds relationships. How is that possible then, if sensitiveness is so annoying? Or are we talking about different matters?

 

[TheRealCallie]

As far for the sensitive thing, I'm not sure how old you are, but I feel like that is a maturity thing.

I am 31.

By the way, I feel like here is some misunderstanding going on, what "sensitive" means.

In my case being sensitive means the genes I was born with. Which means everything affects and influences me more than an average person.

Doesn't matter, how old or mature I am, I am always going to be "sensitive" as such.

Some insight into what I mean.
http://hsperson.com/

Um, your GENES cause you to be overly sensitive?  Do you have some kind of illness that makes you that way? 

If you don't, it's not your genes that made you that way, it's you.  It's the environment you grew up in, it's the habits you learned.  You could change that if you wanted. 
Sorry, it just really annoys me when people confuse habits with genes.  Maybe you do have a diagnosed illness that makes you that way, and if you do, I'm sorry for the rant.

 

[SilentLife]

Um, your GENES cause you to be overly sensitive?  Do you have some kind of illness that makes you that way? 

If you don't, it's not your genes that made you that way, it's you.  It's the environment you grew up in, it's the habits you learned.  You could change that if you wanted. 
Sorry, it just really annoys me when people confuse habits with genes.  Maybe you do have a diagnosed illness that makes you that way, and if you do, I'm sorry for the rant.

If you call that illness, I'm fine with that. Actually I do have a chronic illness too in my body, which sucks further energy away.

But I am not going to argue more about it with you. It is a very personal topic for me. Up to you if you want to understand another person, psychology, psychiatry, or not, or you just want to rant for the sake of it. Because I don't take my claims out of thin air.

 

[Nicolelt]

As far for the sensitive thing, I'm not sure how old you are, but I feel like that is a maturity thing.

I am 31.

By the way, I feel like here is some misunderstanding going on, what "sensitive" means.

In my case being sensitive means the genes I was born with. Which means everything affects and influences me more than an average person.

Doesn't matter, how old or mature I am, I am always going to be "sensitive" as such.

Some insight into what I mean.
http://hsperson.com/

Not maturity for you. Maturity for the woman.

 

[VanillaCreme]

For me, it's annoying. I'm not an emotional thinker nor do I react on emotions. It doesn't help that I think too many people of society today are overly sensitive, and some people are just because they're told they should be offended. It's just ridiculous to me.

There seems to be a contradiction, or should I say an overlap.

You say "most of the society is overly sensitive", but then again most of the people do get into relationships.

So this means at least part of that "overly sensitive" society finds relationships. How is that possible then, if sensitiveness is so annoying? Or are we talking about different matters?

I wasn't talking about relationships. I didn't know that's what you were referring to when you said sensitive. Everyone's relationship is different. Can't really judge sensitivity on that.

 

[EveWasFramed]

[youtube]Mm9tt0v9uXA[/youtube]

How valid is this breakdown? Ladies pls comment. :O

My comment is...
Dude has the most annoying voice in the entire galaxy.

 

[kamya]

Its a very abrasive voice yeah.

 

[Meaw]

Amelia, good post!

Sensitiveness in itself isn't an unattractive quality, it's a good quality (in my opinion).
Much here sounds a slight bit stereotyped, though I may be wrong, stuff can vary over the globe X)