Questions for the Women

[Solivagant]

^ People who get clingy tend to go overboard with "nice" gestures etc. I suppose they are nice on the surface and therefore "too nice." I think the difference between being nice and being clingy-nice is that being nice in general comes from the heart, while niceness stemming from being clingy comes from some insecurity or fear, and therefore isn't genuine.

I personally think that's also why some people think that girls don't like nice guys. It's more about them being some form of clingy, and in fact gender doesn't have honeysuckle to do with it. There's probably more to it then this though.

Oh, I think I see now.

Still, I think it might be a mistake to use the word "nice" in such a context, when it's not really the core issue and can be easily misconstrued. I mean, I wouldn't say that I rejected someone because they were too nice, because that makes it sound like being nice is the problem; I would say they were too insecure.


Also, this discussion reminds of this comic I saw awhile back:

 

[Rosebolt]

Ah okay, i understand. ^^ I don't have much luck either so i don't think i can provide anything meaningful. Personally i just try to work through my journey, do my own thing, improve things, and develop myself. I figured that that would be best, eventually it may or may not happen, but it's not the big goal, so it's okay either way.

Having said that though, i do miss it. Sometimes i think that me keeping to my own thing is also born out of fear. If that is so, i should be fighting that instead. But i don't know. Okay, i'm rambling.

---

Still, I think it might be a mistake to use the word "nice" in such a context, when it's not really the core issue and can be easily misconstrued. I mean, I wouldn't say that I rejected someone because they were too nice, because that makes it sound like being nice is the problem; I would say they were too insecure.

Valid point, i was thinking that too when trying to look at it from your perspective. I think defining it might be problematic though. I mean, the line between being genuinely nice and nice because of insecurities or other reason is kind of clear. Genuine, or not. But defining that in every day life might be troublesome, i think. When is someone clingy, when is someone genuine, etc. It's not always so obvious.

On the other hand, the lable of nice is easy. The action, on the surface, can still be seen as nice, regardless of its motive. And because the surface is easy to see and analyze, it's alot easier to call it nice instead of what it really is.

Don't want to discourage you, just trying to think with you.

 

[Solivagant]

But defining that in every day life might be troublesome, i think. When is someone clingy, when is someone genuine, etc. It's not always so obvious.

True. Something else I was going to say on this subject is that I think a lot of people distrust niceness, because there are so often ulterior motives behind it. I know there have been times when I was suspicious of someone being nice to me, and I was right to be. More often than not there's been danger lurking behind that niceness. And I too have been treated with suspicion when I was being genuinely nice, so I think many people just react that way.

 

[Rosebolt]

^ Uhuh, yeah definately. Guess being careful is the way to go, for as long as you don't get too paranoid. You being generalised, not necessarily you.

 

[ardour]

^ People who get clingy tend to go overboard with "nice" gestures etc. I suppose they are nice on the surface and therefore "too nice." I think the difference between being nice and being clingy-nice is that being nice in general comes from the heart, while niceness stemming from being clingy comes from some insecurity or fear, and therefore isn't genuine.

I personally think that's also why some people think that girls don't like nice guys. It's more about them being some form of clingy, and in fact gender doesn't have honeysuckle to do with it. There's probably more to it then this though.

Doesn't explain why many women end up with men who talk down to them, show them little respect.

A female acquaintance explained it to me : "We don't think we deserve any better"..."It isn't a challenge." They only value the opinion of someone who is difficult to please, who doesn't give out affection easily.

 

[Rosebolt]

^ I think it just depends on what women (think they) want. I can't talk for all of them or anyone, but i've seen plenty of different manifestations, some could be seen as questionable, of what they seem to want or need. Besides, it goes the other way around too. I think it's just a combination of past experiences, personalities, and opportunities. Maybe something is missing in that equation.

 

[Xpendable]

It reminds me
[video=youtube]

 

[Solivagant]

Doesn't explain why many women end up with men who talk down to them, show them little respect.

Well, there are many disrespectful people out there, and you can't always tell in the beginning. Sometimes people take awhile to drop their façade and show their true colors.

I don't have much past relationship experience, but I've had "friends" who talked down to me and disrespected me, and it was never easy for me to just walk away, especially when there was nothing else for me to walk to. In some cases it took years before I reached the point where I was able to say "Enough, I'm done," and let it go. And believe it or not, I truly cared about those people who treated me like dirt, which only made it harder, particularly because some of them had troubles and I worried over what would happen to them if I left them. It made me feel selfish, the idea of walking away for my own good, and it kept me in their grip for a long time.

It's a lot more complex on the inside than it looks from the outside, and I imagine it's even amplified with a significant other.

A female acquaintance explained it to me : "We don't think we deserve any better"...

There are a lot of people with low self-worth out there too.

 

[Sci-Fi]

Doesn't explain why many women end up with men who talk down to them, show them little respect.

Well, there are many disrespectful people out there, and you can't always tell in the beginning. Sometimes people take awhile to drop their façade and show their true colors.

I don't have much past relationship experience, but I've had "friends" who talked down to me and disrespected me, and it was never easy for me to just walk away, especially when there was nothing else for me to walk to. In some cases it took years before I reached the point where I was able to say "Enough, I'm done," and let it go. And believe it or not, I truly cared about those people who treated me like dirt, which only made it harder, particularly because some of them had troubles and I worried over what would happen to them if I left them. It made me feel selfish, the idea of walking away for my own good, and it kept me in their grip for a long time.

It's a lot more complex on the inside than it looks from the outside, and I imagine it's even amplified with a significant other.

A female acquaintance explained it to me : "We don't think we deserve any better"...

There are a lot of people with low self-worth out there too.

Well put.

And it isn't MANY women, SOME do, not many. If you are going to start with this crap again, Ardour, you know what will happen so knock it off. Stop looking at what you want to see and open your eyes to the world around you, you'll see it isn't what you want to make it out to be.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Doesn't explain why many women end up with men who talk down to them, show them little respect.

A female acquaintance explained it to me : "We don't think we deserve any better"..."It isn't a challenge." They only value the opinion of someone who is difficult to please, who doesn't give out affection easily.

Why people act the way they do can't always be explained.

And that was your friend thinking she didn't deserve any better for herself. Not all women think like that.

 

[Veruca]

To clarify, I am not clingy, a pushover nor do I have ulterior motives. Lol Still I can't help but feel as though I should stop whatever it is that I'm doing because it clearly isn't working.

I understand what you mean. You're trying to figure out what you can do differently to improve the situation right? Well, I don't have much luck with men myself but I can say that changing yourself, especially something about you that you actually like, for someone else, is probably going to make you feel worse.

If you do change certain things, let it be stuff you dislike. That way if a girl likes the improved you, its win-win . Because I think it would be difficult to remain at peace with yourself if you didn't feel like you could be yourself most of the time.

 

[Triple Bogey]

A question to all you lovely women.

What is the difference between a male friend and a boyfriend ?
Why are some guys just 'friends' material ?
When do you decide ?
If you are really fond of a man, even in love with him as a friend, why isn't a possible boyfriend ?

Thanks

 

[TheRealCallie]

Attraction is the difference. If you're not attracted to someone, there won't be more than friendship.

 

[VanillaCreme]

A question to all you lovely women.

What is the difference between a male friend and a boyfriend ?

One you're with, and one you're not with? A male friend is a friend who happens to be a guy. A boyfriend is someone who's with their girlfriend.

That question makes all the other things you've said make total sense.

Why are some guys just 'friends' material ?

That depends on the person you ask. There's no general answer to that.

When do you decide ?

Decide to be something more? Again, depends on the person, but I guess it's when attraction is realized by both people. One may realize it earlier than the other.

If you are really fond of a man, even in love with him as a friend, why isn't a possible boyfriend ?

Thanks

And again, that depends on the person. Situations and circumstances vary. One situation may be that someone's already committed and they feel as though they can't be with another person. Or, it may be because the guy isn't interested. There's all sorts of reasons why a possible relationship might not happen.

 

[TheRealCallie]

There are different levels of love. Not all love is romantic love. I love quite a few of my guys friends, but I'm not IN love with them because the attraction isn't there or for whatever reason there just isn't meant to be a relationship.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Question for the women:

How does a guy express confidence to you but without any cockiness?

I can accept that learning to be confident is an important part of life in general and I'd love to feel that way. However, I have never liked cocky people and don't want to be that way.

 

[VanillaCreme]

Question for the women:

How does a guy express confidence to you but without any cockiness?

I can accept that learning to be confident is an important part of life in general and I'd love to feel that way. However, I have never liked cocky people and don't want to be that way.

You can be sure of yourself without being a dick. But that would have to be you learning not to second guess yourself.

 

[Triple Bogey]

There are different levels of love. Not all love is romantic love. I love quite a few of my guys friends, but I'm not IN love with them because the attraction isn't there or for whatever reason there just isn't meant to be a relationship.

The attraction you talk of. Is it purely physical attraction ?

These guy friends. Do you think they love you back ? Do you think they want more from you ? A proper relationship ?

 

[Veruca]

A question to all you lovely women.

What is the difference between a male friend and a boyfriend ?
Why are some guys just 'friends' material ?
When do you decide ?
If you are really fond of a man, even in love with him as a friend, why isn't a possible boyfriend ?

Thanks

1. A good male friend is someone I would have affection for without sexual attraction. A boyfriend is someone I would have affection + sexual attraction for (this is just me. Some people do partner up with people they have no attraction for but there could be many personal reasons for doing this)

2. Theres no such thing as someome being solely labelled as friends material I think. Either theres attraction or none.

I dont think there will ever be a general answer to this question. As humans we meet many people, some we are attracted to, others we are not. For some the attraction is immediate, for others it comes later. As ever evolving creatures, I dont think even we ourselves can be 100% sure about what attracts us all the time. And as complex creatures, attraction is very subjective.

When we decide is also subjective. Friendzoning has become a populaf term but I personally know and have heard about many women who have ended up in relationship with someone they had initially no interest in. So nothing is certain nor clear when it comes to this topic. Its all very person to person based.

3. Being in love and loving are two different things. We fall for people we are attracted to but we can grow to love someone with or without attraction.

Loving a person doesnt automatically make them a good candidate for a bf/gf. Lots of other factors like personality, life goals, values, priorities etc.

 

[VanillaCreme]

There are different levels of love. Not all love is romantic love. I love quite a few of my guys friends, but I'm not IN love with them because the attraction isn't there or for whatever reason there just isn't meant to be a relationship.

The attraction you talk of. Is it purely physical attraction ?

These guy friends. Do you think they love you back ? Do you think they want more from you ? A proper relationship ?

I know this was directed towards Callie's post, but I'll give my input as well because I have quite a few male friends.

I would think that the attraction would be recognized by both people. If it's only one-sided, then that's just someone having a crush on a friend. So, whatever attraction both people feel - physical, emotionally, mind-connection, whatever - depends on their relationship. It might just be physical. Or it may go deeper than that.

I think my guy friends love and care about me, but not in the way that a boyfriend/husband loves their girlfriend/wife. They're definitely not in love with me. But we spend so much time together, and have over the past 5 or 6 years, that it's just natural for us to go to each other. We all talk to each other literally every day. And while I can say without hesitation that we all love each other, I can also safely say there's no "wanting more" out of it.

I don't know what you mean by a "proper relationship" but if being proper means being with someone on a more intimate level, then I guess I'll just have to have improper friendships.