If your your an average guy, things suck, and theres nothing you can do

[Ecclesiastes]

Another MGTOW internet philosopher who thinks they know all women better than they know themselves.

 

[kaetic]

Another MGTOW internet philosopher who thinks they know all women better than they know themselves.

He's been on here a while... I'm just confused as to why he made a whole new thread for this when he already has one with an almost identical title and topic. I thought some one posted on his old one at first...

 

[TheRealCallie]

Celibacy is up by 30% for men in their 20s, compared to 8% for women.

Who... cares?

Again, it's a byproduct with many other factors and causes. God, you and your like-minded pal here really put too much stake into things like ***. Sure do wonder why.... yep...

Didn't I tell you before that it was obvious to women what the only thing you really want out of them is?  
Thanks for making it even more blatant.

You sure seem to enjoy harassing some people, why is that?  Does it make you feel superior or a sense of control?  You know how that makes you look, right?

Also, I think it's already been established that men don't know what women want/think, yet here you are saying it's obvious what women think? 


Back to the whole "OMG I'm a virgin" thing, the "studies" don't give actual reasons WHY those people are not having ***, all they offer are possibilities.  The reasons could be endless.  People wanting to wait til they are married, disabilities that make it hard to have ***, people choosing to be asexual or similar and just simply have no desire for ***, hiding inside and only doing "online" dating and having cyber *** instead of actual ***.  You don't know, so stop with the "knowing" that it's only so called "nice guys" who get passed over for the "bad boys."  Fact of the matter is, none of you actually know.

 

[toasty_one]

Sounds like incel nonsense to me.

 

[ahsatan]

I agree. lol

 

[user 115627]

For someone who's been in the scene I'll never understand why some use the lingo and rhetoric so unironically which is completely alienating to the general population. Then again, I always find civility and diplomacy lacking on either side of this debate.

 

[Enpatsu No Shakugan]

Celibacy is up by 30% for men in their 20s, compared to 8% for women.

Who... cares?

Again, it's a byproduct with many other factors and causes. God, you and your like-minded pal here really put too much stake into things like ***. Sure do wonder why.... yep...

Didn't I tell you before that it was obvious to women what the only thing you really want out of them is?  
Thanks for making it even more blatant.

You sure seem to enjoy harassing some people, why is that?  Does it make you feel superior or a sense of control?  You know how that makes you look, right?

Also, I think it's already been established that men don't know what women want/think, yet here you are saying it's obvious what women think? 


Back to the whole "OMG I'm a virgin" thing, the "studies" don't give actual reasons WHY those people are not having ***, all they offer are possibilities.  The reasons could be endless.  People wanting to wait til they are married, disabilities that make it hard to have ***, people choosing to be asexual or similar and just simply have no desire for ***, hiding inside and only doing "online" dating and having cyber *** instead of actual ***.  You don't know, so stop with the "knowing" that it's only so called "nice guys" who get passed over for the "bad boys."  Fact of the matter is, none of you actually know.

Sorry, but this incel mindset drives me absolutely insane. That's the only reason Ardour and myself wound up butting heads to the level we did.

As Kaetic pointed out, the OP already made this topic and he has to go and make it again. They never drop it. They never learn, and I take it so personally because I hate to imagine how many lonely guys, that just need a proper point in the right direction, instead being influenced by this absolute garbage mindset.

Could've even happened to me 10 or more years ago. It's a cancer that needs to be wiped out entirely, so you can believe I'm going to argue against this nonsense whenever I see it. If I've ever gotten aggressive about anything here, it's generally only in regard to this topic.
They don't listen to reason, so you have to take this approach.

I guess you don't remember the post of his to which I was referring to in that reply. I'm not claiming to know what women think; but I've never met a single one who responds to notions like this topic in a positive way. In fact, it's pretty telling that most posters here are female and 100% of them have voiced disagreements, laughed at the OP, pitied him, and so on. And it's consistent literally everywhere else I've ever seen an incel post at too.
So yeah, I'm not a woman, but I can at least empathize with them more than you think. Don't take general wording so literally.

It basically boils down to: The incel mindset is the most effective female repellent to possibly ever exist.

 

[DanL53]

Cheer up.

Find a way to love yourself.

It may be hard, but socialize as best you can.

be patient, things don't change fast.

be a good person.

I am bisexual, although I've lived life as a straight since my college days.  I am old and no longer attractive on the outside.  It may sound odd but all I've done the last couple of years is built around those five sentences above, and oddly....

....I am meeting men and women that I think if I expressed interest, no, in some cases I KNOW if I expressed interest, I'd be having physical relationships right now.

I've decided that when I reach one more milestone...working out and eating right to improve my physical condition...I will do more than just enjoy meeting people.

By the way, I am a severe agoraphobic so even just leaving my house takes a lot of effort.  If I can establish relations with human beings, I think anyone can.

But not if you have convinced yourself you can't.

 

[Bluesunshineday]

Thank you for your message - it is inspiring. I too feel like I need to get things right with myself before I enter a relationship. I didn't realise it would take this long to sort myself out after I fell though. Five years and I'm still slowly creeping upwards.

I too find it hard to leave the house unless I have to for work. What kinds of socialising have you been doing?

---

Oh, and keeping on point with this thread.

I can't speak for all women, but I've been around a while now and I know that the majority of women are looking for someone that treats them well that they enjoy spending time with.

If you want a partner being someone that treats others well and is nice to spend time with goes soooooo much further than a muscly body. Personally I don't like muscly bodies. It shows that the man is far too into his appearance. But everyone is different.

Everyone is different   :shy:

 

[TheSkaFish]

We live in a society where women have been built up and men relentlessly torn down. It's gotten so bad women have essentially become untouchable. ... Meanwhile a guy with a 'dad bod'  is mercilessly trashed. 

Naturally women still desire a degree of male validation but that can easily be found on social media.  This leaves men seeking female validation from women who are his physical and social equal.  But he can't get it because those women get their validation online and don't need to get it from him.

It's the SkaFish Wall of Text Show.  Read at your peril!

You know, I find it ironic that you mention the "dad bod" because I remember one of my favorite models saying somewhere on YouTube that she liked "dad bods".  I thought to myself, "sooo, howYOU doin'...." lol.  Anyway.  I don't think that's the issue here, I haven't seen anyone get trashed for it.  And I don't think the situation is as extreme as you or some others online have said.  It's easy to exaggerate when you are in despair.  I am too.  But, I do think that there's definitely something going on.

I've heard about the social media thing too, and one thing I try to do is that if I'm attracted to a woman online, I try to avoid "liking" or commenting on photos of herself, and only about pictures or other posts about her interests, or if she actually says or does something I think is cool.  I try to make sure I send the message that I'm not here to be an orbiter, to be used for validation, I'm here to talk about the things about them that I find interesting and hopefully connect.  I don't think it's a magic answer, but I try to be more conscious of any little thing I can do to avoid them categorizing me as some kind of inferior, and instead as an equal, someone to take seriously.

The common criticism of incels is that these men think they are entitled to ***.  Common critiques are for these men to improve themselves and stop whining.  Such responses are typical misandry you see on a daily basis.  When men have problems, they are simply told to shut up and pull ther boot straps up and deal with it.  

Think for a second that an incel has to endure.  He's constantly told by society and media what a loser he is for not having a girlfriend or ***, not to mention his natural tendencies for wanting love from the opposite ***.  So a significant portion of his self worth is tied up with female validation.   When women, even those equal to him in status and physical looks ignore him because they get their validation from social media, this can be devastating.  It's like an eco system that has been thrown out of balance and because men, not women are getting the raw deal nobody cares.

That's another common theme I've seen, which frankly pisses me off.  Nobody seems to want to hear when men are having a hard time, nobody wants to offer compassion or even a space to vent, let alone actually telling men what to do to fix things beyond the generic "self-improve", like what does that even mean.  You're supposed to know this stuff instinctively, and if you don't, people just write you off as weak and inherently inferior, and your suffering is right and natural.  It's funny because people seem to preach self-improvement to men as the answer, but also believing in biological determinism at the same time.  I always think, what if you try self-improvement and it doesn't work?  This "advice", it always seems insincere, like they tell you to self-improve while not really believing that you can, because it's more about them wanting to come off as the good guy than about actually helping you figure this out.  I feel like it's pretty sick that for what is to some people a genuine cause of distress, others who have mostly never been in this situation or only got out due to dumb luck feel like it's a joke.

And the whole "entitled to ***" thing is particularly aggravating, because that's basically one of the key parts of the "alpha male" personality.  Yet nobody ever seems to care about that.  The funny thing is, if you try to have some confidence or try to assert yourself like they say a man is supposed to, then they turn around and use the word "entitled" to try and beat you back down into your place.  It makes you feel like you're never going to be good enough.  Honestly I think it's just a word that people use to invalidate and socially police people they feel are weaker than them, and that's pretty much it.  

While nobody is saying anyone should be forced to date anyone they don't like, wanting to be with someone sexually, romantically, emotionally is a valid human wish, much more central to our well-being than something like being rich or a celebrity.  It's not an "extra".  So all this "entitled to ***" stuff, well, **** that noise.

And I totally hear you about society and the media.  Society says be confident, don't base your self worth on others, and all that, then turns around and virgin-shames you.  It's another one of these double standards.  

I agree women have issues they have to deal with as well.  But being an average looking guy nowadays is insufferable.  If you don't have 6 pack abs or an aggressive dominating personality your considered inferior, or a beta male. 

I'd say it's this, right here - not the 6 pack, but the aggressive, competitive, dominating, hierarchical personality.  Traditionally masculine interests, loudness, popularity, vulgarity, sarcasm, "negging", and crude sexual slang or innuendoes, booze and drugs, money, violence, or breaking the law (or at least the illusion of these things), objectifying women (ironically), an attitude of superiority, and either the business ****** or the industrial worker/redneck/outlaw/burnout archetype.  That's the thing I've seen is the most surefire way of attracting a woman.  Someone can say it's not nice to say that, or it's misogynistic, or whatever.  But I'm not saying this to be offensive.  I'm saying it because I've witnessed it, many times.

It seems the only way around that is by being very successful, like being nearly a pro athlete or musician or actor, being a CEO or some other very well-paid position, being a member of an elite military unit, being some kind of extreme sports guy, or something like that.  It would be nice if we could all just "work hard" and "believe in ourselves" and "not give up" until we could get to this level, but I'm not sure if it's possible.  For me, a big thing that I ponder, maybe too much, is the idea of natural, genetic talent vs. hard work.  Born vs made, nature vs nurture.  Which is more important?  If your genetics, your nature are all zeroes, what can you really do?

Other than that, the only other option seems to be dumb luck.  Hoping and wishing.  It's frustrating because it's like people feel like the only reason a guy isn't macho is because he's like you said, some kind of biologically inferior beta male, and not because he just doesn't have those interests, doesn't come from that culture, just doesn't feel the need to be that way.

Issue is you, not women.

When is the issue ever women?  They are never held accountable.   If a man says on his dating profile he wants a woman with large breasts, then he is a sexist who sees women as objects.  If a woman writes on her dating profile she wants a man at least 6' tall with 6 pack abs she's just describing the guy she wants physically and won't be judged.

   
Truth.   Again, I haven't seen the 6 pack thing, but I've seen the height thing lots of times.  Luckily for me height isn't my problem, but still.   Another double standard.

That's the thing though.  As long as you still want a woman, there's nothing any of us can really do about this.  Sometime between now and our parents' day, the culture changed, values changed.  I find that there's a lot of parallels between dating and capitalism.  You can say the system sucks all day, but as long as it has something you want or need, you have no choice but to learn the rules and play the game.

Tell me how much self improvement Chad put in to be so attractive to women?  He lifted some weights?  

What effort are women putting into improving themselves?  Or are they perfect as they are like what feminism wants us to believe? And men are toxic dirty losers who need to shape up to be to worthy of perfect women.

A lot of these guys?  Not ****.  Words like "self-improvement", "hard work", and "discipline" aren't in their dictionary, not that they have one.  A lot of these guys can't even be assed to go to the gym, and I can tell because they have no muscle tone.  They get by on just being born into a strong-fat body type, and a macho personality.  It's sort of amazing how far you can go on these two things alone.

Recently I looked up some people I went to school with online, just to see what the deal is.  These guys were the shady people, kind of like a cross between Jersey Shore guidos and Homer Simpson, if he was a ******.  Most of them are straight-up fat, and talk about nothing except generic macho interests.  They all talk and look more or less the same, and like whatever culture is popular right now.  They seem to have very little ambition beyond getting a cozy job where they don't have to think much, and they don't seem to do anything except drink and yell in various places.  And yet, almost all of these guys either have a girlfriend, or are even married.  Granted, I wouldn't be interested in the women they're with, but still.  I feel like I have to do all this work just to "have a personality" or "be interesting" or whatever, and it might be beyond my abilities or it just might not work, and these guys basically have to just show up, drunk, loud, slovenly, not really good at anything and no intellectual curiosity and not even in shape or good-looking, and it's OK.  I can't help but feel like, what the **** man, seriously.  

To be fair, a lot of women actually do put a lot of work into being attractive, at least physically.  But where a lot of them don't seem to do much work, is personality-wise.  I can't tell you how many dating profiles I've seen that list traveling, pizza, wine, country, rap, or EDM, "going out and staying in", and "loving to laugh" as their interests, if that much, and they all more or less talk and think the same way.  I don't know how I'd talk to someone like this even if I wanted to.  And I don't, cause I want someone I want to explore, and can share my interests and enthusiasm with and would take me in a direction I want to go.  But people like that are few and far between, and also think they are better than me, I guess.

I don't know, man.  All I can say is, somewhere along the line culture changed, people got colder and more into status and power, and I think we have to accept that we have to do more work to be good enough than the machos, and maybe even the average guy, and we have less margin for error.  People don't WANT to give us a break, we have to overcome their prejudgment that we are lesser.  As non-macho men, our fitness, intelligence, sense of style, abilities, knowledge base, finances, and all that has to be on point, and we have to make sure that when talking to a woman we want to date, we have to look like our life is some kind of party all the time, and to show as little weakness as possible.  It's just the way it is.

---

^Confidence is connected to stereotypical notions of masculinity, whether you want to admit that or not,  so you're kind of re-enforcing his point (that self-improvement is only expected of men).

I don't really agree with the Chad/Stacey, 80/20 crap,  since it's obviously a ridiculous exaggeration, but men are facing a lot of mixed messages lately. On one hand cishet males  are 'toxic' with entitlement and a threat  to everyone around them. Yet they're still expected to be the initiators, to carry and earn relationships and exemplify stoicism while doing it. It's no wonder  socially awkward men become bitter and buy into certain ideas to try to explain it all.

Right you are.  I've seen something like "women are loved for who they are, while men are loved for what they do" or something similar, a couple times.  Of course, this doesn't apply to the machos, who get out of jail free. 

The thing I think is, as a male, it seems like you can't just do whatever, be any way you want to be.  There are tons of unspoken rules, or things that are presented as choices if they're presented at all, but are more like rules.  And there's all these nuances.  "Be yourself" - except when your interests and personality aren't macho.  "Don't worry about fitting in or being popular or cool" - except that's what a lot of women wind up going for.  "Be nice, get good grades, stay out of trouble" - except that it gets everyone to see you as a lame and sometimes fighting is the answer.  "Don't be shallow and judge people for their looks and money or act like you're better than anyone else" - except that the "cool" guys do, and it doesn't hurt them at all.  "Women like sweet guys" - except that they tend to go for guys who are into violence, sarcasm, vulgarity, sexual slang and innuendos, the game of insults and comebacks, and an air of superiority.  "It's OK to be sensitive and non-macho, talk about your feelings" - except when it gets women to see you as naturally weak and inherently inferior, like it is right in this thread.

---

This is so scary to me...this attitude.

Can we educate and help??

What's scary to me is how social Darwinism seems to be on the rise, and there seems to be less and less compassion for people whose interests, personality, and background don't match the new culture and values.  "I've got mine, screw you" and "if you can't compete, you're inferior" seems to be getting more and more common.  

As for educating and helping, one thing that would help is for women to say what they actually want.  I've seen it said many times that in our society, women are "pressured to be nice", due to gender roles, keeping up appearances, and a desire to avoid conflict.  I say, say what you mean.  If you want a nice and sweet and sensitive guy, say so.  If you want a sarcastic, insulting guy, or a lewd and crude overly sexual guy, or a guy who looks like he's spent his whole life in and out of jail, or a guy who shows up in a Ferrari, say so.  Own it, no matter how nice or nasty, and decide what is really "you".  Don't say what you think your parents or friends or society wants to hear.  

Same with guys.  They should be told something like "go ahead and be 'nerdy' if you want, but realize that it's probably going to make finding a girlfriend harder" instead of "be yourself" or "do whatever you want".  Or "sometimes you have to curse someone out or fight, even though you will probably get in trouble for this" instead of "be nice".  

The more people know, the more they can make informed choices instead of just doing whatever and wondering why it doesn't work.  I think a little honesty on all sides would go a long way.

---

I don't base who I am attracted to on looks alone. Personality is far more important to me, as is who the guy is on the inside.

That's actually pretty admirable.  Not being sarcastic either.  But you have to understand that it's also not that common.

Perhaps part of your problem is that you seem all about negativity, whereas "Chad" has confidence and knows how to put a good foot forward. 

It's easy for "Chad" to have confidence because things have been going his way literally from birth, so why wouldn't he be confident when he knows no other way?  At some point in his early youth, he realizes he is bigger and stronger and/or richer than others, and believes it must be that he is inherently better than them.  Or, he's from a "hard" culture, and only presented one choice for his personality.  He makes friends with like-minded guys, and life pretty much lets them coast for the rest of their days.  Nothing ever threatens to kick their *** or show them up or force them to shut up, drop the ego, and get in line.

Meanwhile as a non-macho man, things rarely ever go your way, and probably nobody even tells you why cause they don't know themselves.  It starts to feel pretty hopeless when you try different things, but no matter what you do, it just doesn't budge.  It looks so easy for everyone else but you, you're frozen out.  I can't remember if I was ever told this specifically, but I've heard "just be confident" before.  But the problem with that is, it's incomplete advice.  Confidence comes from past wins, things you are good at, things you can beat others at, times where you made things go your way with your power, cunning, or skill.  If you don't have any past wins or special skills, things you seem to just naturally take to, then you're going to have a hard time justifying a confident attitude.

But a lot of people confuse confidence with arrogance.  "Chad" has both, confidence gets him in the door, but that confidence is soon revealed to be arrogance.  A lot of people can't tell the difference at first meetings unless it's very obvious.

I have yet to hear of a woman break up with a man because of arrogance, let alone refusing to give him a chance in the first place because of arrogance.  Maybe it happens, but I don't think it's common.

So yeah "Chad" might get more dates, but how successful is he at maintaining those relationships?

From what I've seen?  Very.  It seems like a simple formula, even: remember to smooth-talk and pepper your conversations with insults and comebacks or sexual innuendoes, or just insult other people or things to make yourself seem cooler/tougher/"edgier" by comparison.  Then all you have to do is don't beat, don't cheat, rinse wash repeat.  At least that's how it looks to me.

That said, Chad is likely an *******

Well, thanks for admitting that much.  It's better than nothing, I'll take it!

---

The issue is you, not women. Convincing yourself of this conspiracy and being around others who propagate that notion has and will continue to do nothing for you.

Couldn't it possibly be that at least a part of this is that culture changed, and what used to be good advice for attracting women is now out of date?  Or that some people's interests, personality, body, and culture aren't favored in this area of life?

These guys make it their defining trait

It's kind of forced on them.  Hence, "involuntary".  

Besides, what other traits could they have instead?  Personally, I fear that guys wind up this way because they're both untalented (and therefore unable to really cultivate other traits effectively), and not macho, which is how most machos get around not having to bother with talent or knowledge or cultivating a unique personality.

don't want to do the work (IE, self-improvement, introspection, not blaming others) that would actually fix their issues.

See, this is what I'm talking about.  You say self-improvement is the answer one minute, then you say no, they're all ****** because of biological determinism the next.  Which is it?  Would self-improvement fix their issues, or are they too untalented or genetically inferior to self-improve in any meaningful way?

I've personally read countless articles and typed pages of introspection to myself, going over my entire life and trying to figure out how I got here.  I feel like I've finally figured out a lot, but I wish I'd known all this stuff sooner.

And I've tried to self-improve in various ways.  But nothing happened, not with women, not even with the things I was trying to improve at.  And I'm not the only one.  I've never been a member of any incel forums, and I don't plan to either, but I read some stuff there just to see what kinds of people are on there anyway and what their situation is really like instead of letting the media tell me what to think and seeing if their situation was like mine, and if you don't count the trolls and extremely stereotypical nerds, some of them are actually fairly regular people.  That's the scary part.  A lot of these guys, they lift weights, they stay in shape, they're educated and have at least half-decent to good jobs, they read and have interests and hobbies, they have their own place, and some of them even have nice cars.  They do everything a man is supposed to and all the "self-improvement" ****, but no women care.  Some of them seem like well-spoken people with a decent enough disposition, but the main thing seems to be they all lack that aggressive, competitive, dominant, hierarchical personality.  They don't have that "edgy", sarcastic, mocking, sneering tone.  None of them seem very casually superior or rebellious either.  I think women think of them as "boringly friendly" middle-class guys.  They come across as too mild, no thrills, no suspense.  They don't have power to lord over anyone.  They come across as too G-rated, too Disney, not offensive or dangerous - at least not in the "cool" sense of those terms, the kind that comes from a place of power instead of frustration.  And I'm not sure what anyone can do about that.

They ***** and moan loudly

Remind us about this next time something is getting you down.

Even trying to help them and say there are many types of women, and maybe they're after the wrong types, etc, and even when I say I've lived these experiences too; you only get replies of "Where do these women exist? I want to go there!" or the like.

That still doesn't really help though.  I've seen difference in personalities and interests, but not so much the guys they choose.  What makes someone "wrong" or "right" anyway?  It's more than common interests or being able to hold a conversation, that's for sure.  And what if I don't like anyone that is "right" for me, because the only thing that makes them "right" is common problems, the main thing I have in common with the person is something that I wish I didn't have?

Even though what I'm describing is 99% of women and they're everywhere. The women who posted in THIS topic are further proof that almost no woman acts like the "Stacy" they've built up in their minds.

I wouldn't say that people on a forum for loneliness - and I include myself here - are an accurate representation of the mainstream population.  No offense, but we're here mostly because of problems, not because everything goes our way.  How people feel and think about things on here isn't necessarily what most people feel and think, cause they don't have our personalities and haven't had our experiences.  I don't like using these terms, but you're not going to hear from "Stacies" in a place like this, cause they just aren't going to be here.

But see, it's always outside forces; someone else's fault. It wouldn't matter if they changed location or any other superficial thing they think will help; THEY, with their inane and idiotic mindset are the real turn off, so they'll see it wherever they are, wherever they go, because it's them that is the problem.

Again, what can they do?  Try and get good at things they may not be able to, or even be interested in?  Adopt personalities way outside of their culture and everything they agree with or makes sense for them to be?  

Personal responsibility can help with some things, but sometimes it doesnt do anything, and sometimes there really is someone to blame.  Maybe it's not women, but it could at least be the culture.  And maybe there's not even anything to do about it but play the game, but I don't see what's so wrong with saying "damn, this sucks!" every once in a while.  Or saying, "I don't know what to do, I've tried things and nothing seems to work, I feel hopeless".  Venting helps.

But the fact you view "Men who are still virgins past a certain age" as some sort of outbreak is absolutely hysterical.

Nothing says "classy" as much as laughing at people's despair, amirite?

Maybe when you stop viewing women as solely tools to get your **** wet

Right, because yuppies, guidos, bros, gangstas, rednecks, burnouts, and all the other "alpha" types are so known for how much they are so fascinated by women's personalities, and see the personality first, and the body second.  Almost as much as they are known for their own kind, warm, inclusive, pleasant personalities, good values, and brilliant life choices.  The fact that they mostly go after hot women is pure coincidence.  And they'd never dream of objectifying women, ever!  

you can learn that *** isn't the most important thing ever.

Well, somebody needs to tell those guys that, because they clearly didn't get the memo.  They're missing out!

Not that I expect much understanding or anything, but to give you a sense of what it feels like, for me, this feels like a weight on me, or a ceiling I can't get through, or a gravity well I can't escape.  Or maybe most like a gated community that I can see into, but can't get into no matter what, because I'm just not good enough.  There's never been any indication that I've ever even been close to good enough for anyone, and the fear that I'm never going to get to experience not only *** but a relationship, sharing good feelings and conversation with someone on that level, all the little things, the connection, having someone like this in my lifetime is not a ******* joke, it's real.  The feeling that nothing I could possibly think or say or do will ever be good enough no matter how hard I work is real, because I just can't find it in me to be "cool" and "badass" and I dont know if I can make up for it.  The feeling that it's just my **** luck and I can't overcome it and change my story is real.  And the feeling that I'm somehow chosen to miss out, pisses me off, especially when all kinds of unremarkable to awful guys have such an easy time with this.  But there's nothing I can do except try to figure out how to be somebody else.  

all you really care about is free ***

And if you think "alpha males" care about something more than this, boy are there a lot of guys you should meet.

For someone who says that there are many different kinds of women, you sure don't believe there can be many kinds of men who struggle with attraction, or their desires and motivations.  Weird.

and any woman worth her weight picks up on that right away and rightfully wants no part of you.

A lot of people seem to get off on feeling superior to someone, and like I said, society is getting more stratified, it seems to be getting worse.  If you can't be better than anyone, then who are you better than?  A lot of people are very hierarchical.  It sucks.

"Stacy" and "Chad"; literally those are the only two words you say all day, I'd wager.

You mean like "self-improvement" and "entitled" for your side?

You know, as much as I don't agree with that mindset or the whole incel movement, man makes a sad point. It IS at a historic high. At some point, people with knowledge on human psychology should really, in depth, study the phenomena and figure out exactly what is wrong.
Can we really just casually toss it on social media? Or is there really a much deeper culture problem beneath it? I wonder.

I'd chalk it up that people are maturing at a much slower rate these days for a multitude of reasons (easier lives, less responsibilities, longer lifespans, etc), and *** just happens to be one of the side-effects in that process.

I actually agree with this and think it has a lot to do with it, and I wish you'd focused on this instead cause this is actually something that could be constructive.  Life, especially in middle-class suburbia, is relatively easy and low-risk.  You don't really have to "be a man" around here, in fact you might even be encouraged not to cause it's against the rules or just nasty.  It's not really stressed and you're told you have other options if being macho isn't for you, or you're just left to your own devices.  

Guys in more redneck, working-class areas, or the hood, where there is more scarcity, violence, chaos and brawn is valued over brains, don't really have problems with this because the culture there is hyper-masculine.  They expect to die young from violence, industrial accidents, or lifestyle diseases, or get a lengthy jail sentence sooner or later.  You can't really be a nerdy guy in these places cause all that would make you is prey.

But that's the thing.  All these inventions were made to make our lives easier, and the safe neighborhoods were made to increase quality of life.  It's made us soft, but wasn't that the point, to not have to live hard lives anymore?  Should we throw it all away so we can be "hard" men again?  That seems kinda dumb.  But "swagless" middle-class suburban guys don't excite, so, I don't know what to do.

making people less socially adept

the guys who aren't socially ******** who can get girls

What does this really mean?  Cause just talking to people isn't it.  I can do that just fine.  I think a lot of men can.  

What it seems to mean, is the ability to project dominance socially through sarcasm, "negging"/the game of insults and comebacks, crudeness, boasting, and as I said earlier, ****-talking other people or things to make you seem cooler by comparison.  Always maneuvering for the social high ground.  But what's the alternative if this isn't "you"?

Oh and you might not want to throw that word around.  Just sayin'.

Celibacy is up by 30% for men in their 20s, compared to 8% for women.

Who... cares?

Uh...the guys struggling with this and want some answers so they can get out of it and start experiencing a normal part of life, something that's supposed to be one of the best parts of life, like everyone else, who has been taking it for granted for years, maybe?  And no, I'm not talking about just ***.  I'm talking about a relationship, the whole thing.

God, you and your like-minded pal here really put too much stake into things like ***. Sure do wonder why.... yep...

"God, you poors really put too much stake into things like jobs, money, and possessions.  Sure do wonder why.... yep..."
"God, you homeless really put too much stake into things like homes.  Sure do wonder why.... yep..."

Didn't I tell you before that it was obvious to women what the only thing you really want out of them is?  
Thanks for making it even more blatant.

I say again - yuppies, guidos, bros, gangstas, rednecks/burnouts, and all kinds of celebrities "only want one thing out of women" and they don't even try to hide it, nor do they hide the fact that they think they are above women and that women exist just for their sexual gratification.  
But you let these guys slide.  Why?

and at least we know they're the last of their generation and there won't be more of them, at least from their bloodlines.
Not a bad outcome, honestly.
...
Like I said, good. Women deserve better.
...
Also, we even have cures for that. It's called a hooker. So either go get laid or shut up already with this incessant whining.

Wow.  You know, I actually agreed with you on some posts of yours on other threads, and liked some of the things you said.  Sometimes you could even say something that sounded a little bit hopeful.  But this, you pushed it too far.  I get that this isn't my forum and I'm not a mod but this isn't cool.  
 
I mean, do you not get or care about how insulting and degrading that last part is..."you are so inherently inferior and worthless that you have to risk life-ruining diseases, pay money, oh and break the law to get what guys with legitimately, unapologetically awful personalities have been taking for granted all their lives".  

"You guys need to just be confident and take responsibility bro...but it doesn't really matter, because you're inherently lesser."

And it's no more constructive than simply complaining about the problem either.

You sure seem to enjoy harassing some people, why is that?  Do it make you feel superior or a sense of control?  You know how that makes you look, right?

Probably.  He thinks he can cow them, that they won't put up a fight.  Not this fish, though.  

I got a little passionate here, and holy hell, I actually agreed with you multiple times in one post.  Now if you'll all excuse me, there's a tall, red goat-looking fellow knocking on my door and asking if he can borrow a coat.

 

[DanL53]

Thank you for your message - it is inspiring. I too feel like I need to get things right with myself before I enter a relationship. I didn't realise it would take this long to sort myself out after I fell though. Five years and I'm still slowly creeping upwards.

I too find it hard to leave the house unless I have to for work. What kinds of socialising have you been doing?

---

Oh, and keeping on point with this thread.

I can't speak for all women, but I've been around a while now and I know that the majority of women are looking for someone that treats them well that they enjoy spending time with.

If you want a partner being someone that treats others well and is nice to spend time with goes soooooo much further than a muscly body. Personally I don't like muscly bodies. It shows that the man is far too into his appearance. But everyone is different.

Everyone is different   :shy:

---

In good weather I spend a lot of time going to garage sales and antique stores.  I travel back roads to small towns.  For an agoraphobic, familiar places can have pitfalls...cause feelings of being trapped.  That is certainly true for me so I try to go places I will never have to return to, and that I can leave if I feel like I can't handle it.

And it seems easier for me to talk with strangers sometimes.  

I also have family that makes sure to get me out of the house.  And their friends have kind of adopted me as well.  I try as hard as I can to not refuse an invite...even if it means popping the anxiety pills and going out half stoned.  

I use the internet to make friends online.  Lot's of fantastic people with incredible lives and minds.  I'm even a moderator on a cam model page for two fantastic, Lesbian, Venezuelan Refugees battling to improve their lives!  The bravest people I know...and great friends now.  Amazing, and to think I was just looking for ****.  

Most recently a friend in real life who happens to be gay, I don't know how to explain this...but several of his friends online spotted me and I've gotten a little attention from them.      Feels nice to be noticed that way.  And I must say, from seeing their pictures and poses.........APPARENTLY bears don't get concerned with a little pot belly or other matters.   And my goodness the confidence they have to just show themselves as they are is sooooooooooooooo sexy!!!

I still have some goals besides exercising and eating right.  (Right now I'd make a good poster boy for that phrase, "Ask your Doctor if you are healthy enough for ***")  I want to find a way to volunteer.....where if I have a very down day I can skip out.  I'd love to get involved with the local historical society.  The day is coming, just need to work up the guts a little more.  And, I want to work out exactly what I am looking for....

...I know I can't handle a full time relationship.  Do I want to keep up living as a straight?  I don't think so....honestly it feels less scary to be with a man right now than to be with another woman.  If I could find a woman that understands what part-time means....don't know if I can...probably prejudiced from past relationships and maybe I should give women more credit for their strength and power?

I'm working on a lot of things.    

Have a lot of choices to make.  But for the purposes of this thread...for those giving up...think about it!  All these choices I've got!  A few years ago I was on no meds, nuts as a jar of Plantars, facing homelessness.  Things change.  Give up on giving up...even a little...give yourselves a chance.

 

[Enpatsu No Shakugan]

We live in a society where women have been built up and men relentlessly torn down. It's gotten so bad women have essentially become untouchable. ... Meanwhile a guy with a 'dad bod'  is mercilessly trashed. 

Naturally women still desire a degree of male validation but that can easily be found on social media.  This leaves men seeking female validation from women who are his physical and social equal.  But he can't get it because those women get their validation online and don't need to get it from him.

It's the SkaFish Wall of Text Show.  Read at your peril!

You know, I find it ironic that you mention the "dad bod" because I remember one of my favorite models saying somewhere on YouTube that she liked "dad bods".  I thought to myself, "sooo, howYOU doin'...." lol.  Anyway.  I don't think that's the issue here, I haven't seen anyone get trashed for it.  And I don't think the situation is as extreme as you or some others online have said.  It's easy to exaggerate when you are in despair.  I am too.  But, I do think that there's definitely something going on.

I've heard about the social media thing too, and one thing I try to do is that if I'm attracted to a woman online, I try to avoid "liking" or commenting on photos of herself, and only about pictures or other posts about her interests, or if she actually says or does something I think is cool.  I try to make sure I send the message that I'm not here to be an orbiter, to be used for validation, I'm here to talk about the things about them that I find interesting and hopefully connect.  I don't think it's a magic answer, but I try to be more conscious of any little thing I can do to avoid them categorizing me as some kind of inferior, and instead as an equal, someone to take seriously.

The common criticism of incels is that these men think they are entitled to ***.  Common critiques are for these men to improve themselves and stop whining.  Such responses are typical misandry you see on a daily basis.  When men have problems, they are simply told to shut up and pull ther boot straps up and deal with it.  

Think for a second that an incel has to endure.  He's constantly told by society and media what a loser he is for not having a girlfriend or ***, not to mention his natural tendencies for wanting love from the opposite ***.  So a significant portion of his self worth is tied up with female validation.   When women, even those equal to him in status and physical looks ignore him because they get their validation from social media, this can be devastating.  It's like an eco system that has been thrown out of balance and because men, not women are getting the raw deal nobody cares.

That's another common theme I've seen, which frankly pisses me off.  Nobody seems to want to hear when men are having a hard time, nobody wants to offer compassion or even a space to vent, let alone actually telling men what to do to fix things beyond the generic "self-improve", like what does that even mean.  You're supposed to know this stuff instinctively, and if you don't, people just write you off as weak and inherently inferior, and your suffering is right and natural.  It's funny because people seem to preach self-improvement to men as the answer, but also believing in biological determinism at the same time.  I always think, what if you try self-improvement and it doesn't work?  This "advice", it always seems insincere, like they tell you to self-improve while not really believing that you can, because it's more about them wanting to come off as the good guy than about actually helping you figure this out.  I feel like it's pretty sick that for what is to some people a genuine cause of distress, others who have mostly never been in this situation or only got out due to dumb luck feel like it's a joke.

And the whole "entitled to ***" thing is particularly aggravating, because that's basically one of the key parts of the "alpha male" personality.  Yet nobody ever seems to care about that.  The funny thing is, if you try to have some confidence or try to assert yourself like they say a man is supposed to, then they turn around and use the word "entitled" to try and beat you back down into your place.  It makes you feel like you're never going to be good enough.  Honestly I think it's just a word that people use to invalidate and socially police people they feel are weaker than them, and that's pretty much it.  

While nobody is saying anyone should be forced to date anyone they don't like, wanting to be with someone sexually, romantically, emotionally is a valid human wish, much more central to our well-being than something like being rich or a celebrity.  It's not an "extra".  So all this "entitled to ***" stuff, well, **** that noise.

And I totally hear you about society and the media.  Society says be confident, don't base your self worth on others, and all that, then turns around and virgin-shames you.  It's another one of these double standards.  

I agree women have issues they have to deal with as well.  But being an average looking guy nowadays is insufferable.  If you don't have 6 pack abs or an aggressive dominating personality your considered inferior, or a beta male. 

I'd say it's this, right here - not the 6 pack, but the aggressive, competitive, dominating, hierarchical personality.  Traditionally masculine interests, loudness, popularity, vulgarity, sarcasm, "negging", and crude sexual slang or innuendoes, booze and drugs, money, violence, or breaking the law (or at least the illusion of these things), objectifying women (ironically), an attitude of superiority, and either the business ****** or the industrial worker/redneck/outlaw/burnout archetype.  That's the thing I've seen is the most surefire way of attracting a woman.  Someone can say it's not nice to say that, or it's misogynistic, or whatever.  But I'm not saying this to be offensive.  I'm saying it because I've witnessed it, many times.

It seems the only way around that is by being very successful, like being nearly a pro athlete or musician or actor, being a CEO or some other very well-paid position, being a member of an elite military unit, being some kind of extreme sports guy, or something like that.  It would be nice if we could all just "work hard" and "believe in ourselves" and "not give up" until we could get to this level, but I'm not sure if it's possible.  For me, a big thing that I ponder, maybe too much, is the idea of natural, genetic talent vs. hard work.  Born vs made, nature vs nurture.  Which is more important?  If your genetics, your nature are all zeroes, what can you really do?

Other than that, the only other option seems to be dumb luck.  Hoping and wishing.  It's frustrating because it's like people feel like the only reason a guy isn't macho is because he's like you said, some kind of biologically inferior beta male, and not because he just doesn't have those interests, doesn't come from that culture, just doesn't feel the need to be that way.

Issue is you, not women.

When is the issue ever women?  They are never held accountable.   If a man says on his dating profile he wants a woman with large breasts, then he is a sexist who sees women as objects.  If a woman writes on her dating profile she wants a man at least 6' tall with 6 pack abs she's just describing the guy she wants physically and won't be judged.

   
Truth.   Again, I haven't seen the 6 pack thing, but I've seen the height thing lots of times.  Luckily for me height isn't my problem, but still.   Another double standard.

That's the thing though.  As long as you still want a woman, there's nothing any of us can really do about this.  Sometime between now and our parents' day, the culture changed, values changed.  I find that there's a lot of parallels between dating and capitalism.  You can say the system sucks all day, but as long as it has something you want or need, you have no choice but to learn the rules and play the game.

Tell me how much self improvement Chad put in to be so attractive to women?  He lifted some weights?  

What effort are women putting into improving themselves?  Or are they perfect as they are like what feminism wants us to believe? And men are toxic dirty losers who need to shape up to be to worthy of perfect women.

A lot of these guys?  Not ****.  Words like "self-improvement", "hard work", and "discipline" aren't in their dictionary, not that they have one.  A lot of these guys can't even be assed to go to the gym, and I can tell because they have no muscle tone.  They get by on just being born into a strong-fat body type, and a macho personality.  It's sort of amazing how far you can go on these two things alone.

Recently I looked up some people I went to school with online, just to see what the deal is.  These guys were the shady people, kind of like a cross between Jersey Shore guidos and Homer Simpson, if he was a ******.  Most of them are straight-up fat, and talk about nothing except generic macho interests.  They all talk and look more or less the same, and like whatever culture is popular right now.  They seem to have very little ambition beyond getting a cozy job where they don't have to think much, and they don't seem to do anything except drink and yell in various places.  And yet, almost all of these guys either have a girlfriend, or are even married.  Granted, I wouldn't be interested in the women they're with, but still.  I feel like I have to do all this work just to "have a personality" or "be interesting" or whatever, and it might be beyond my abilities or it just might not work, and these guys basically have to just show up, drunk, loud, slovenly, not really good at anything and no intellectual curiosity and not even in shape or good-looking, and it's OK.  I can't help but feel like, what the **** man, seriously.  

To be fair, a lot of women actually do put a lot of work into being attractive, at least physically.  But where a lot of them don't seem to do much work, is personality-wise.  I can't tell you how many dating profiles I've seen that list traveling, pizza, wine, country, rap, or EDM, "going out and staying in", and "loving to laugh" as their interests, if that much, and they all more or less talk and think the same way.  I don't know how I'd talk to someone like this even if I wanted to.  And I don't, cause I want someone I want to explore, and can share my interests and enthusiasm with and would take me in a direction I want to go.  But people like that are few and far between, and also think they are better than me, I guess.

I don't know, man.  All I can say is, somewhere along the line culture changed, people got colder and more into status and power, and I think we have to accept that we have to do more work to be good enough than the machos, and maybe even the average guy, and we have less margin for error.  People don't WANT to give us a break, we have to overcome their prejudgment that we are lesser.  As non-macho men, our fitness, intelligence, sense of style, abilities, knowledge base, finances, and all that has to be on point, and we have to make sure that when talking to a woman we want to date, we have to look like our life is some kind of party all the time, and to show as little weakness as possible.  It's just the way it is.

---

^Confidence is connected to stereotypical notions of masculinity, whether you want to admit that or not,  so you're kind of re-enforcing his point (that self-improvement is only expected of men).

I don't really agree with the Chad/Stacey, 80/20 crap,  since it's obviously a ridiculous exaggeration, but men are facing a lot of mixed messages lately. On one hand cishet males  are 'toxic' with entitlement and a threat  to everyone around them. Yet they're still expected to be the initiators, to carry and earn relationships and exemplify stoicism while doing it. It's no wonder  socially awkward men become bitter and buy into certain ideas to try to explain it all.

Right you are.  I've seen something like "women are loved for who they are, while men are loved for what they do" or something similar, a couple times.  Of course, this doesn't apply to the machos, who get out of jail free. 

The thing I think is, as a male, it seems like you can't just do whatever, be any way you want to be.  There are tons of unspoken rules, or things that are presented as choices if they're presented at all, but are more like rules.  And there's all these nuances.  "Be yourself" - except when your interests and personality aren't macho.  "Don't worry about fitting in or being popular or cool" - except that's what a lot of women wind up going for.  "Be nice, get good grades, stay out of trouble" - except that it gets everyone to see you as a lame and sometimes fighting is the answer.  "Don't be shallow and judge people for their looks and money or act like you're better than anyone else" - except that the "cool" guys do, and it doesn't hurt them at all.  "Women like sweet guys" - except that they tend to go for guys who are into violence, sarcasm, vulgarity, sexual slang and innuendos, the game of insults and comebacks, and an air of superiority.  "It's OK to be sensitive and non-macho, talk about your feelings" - except when it gets women to see you as naturally weak and inherently inferior, like it is right in this thread.

---

This is so scary to me...this attitude.

Can we educate and help??

What's scary to me is how social Darwinism seems to be on the rise, and there seems to be less and less compassion for people whose interests, personality, and background don't match the new culture and values.  "I've got mine, screw you" and "if you can't compete, you're inferior" seems to be getting more and more common.  

As for educating and helping, one thing that would help is for women to say what they actually want.  I've seen it said many times that in our society, women are "pressured to be nice", due to gender roles, keeping up appearances, and a desire to avoid conflict.  I say, say what you mean.  If you want a nice and sweet and sensitive guy, say so.  If you want a sarcastic, insulting guy, or a lewd and crude overly sexual guy, or a guy who looks like he's spent his whole life in and out of jail, or a guy who shows up in a Ferrari, say so.  Own it, no matter how nice or nasty, and decide what is really "you".  Don't say what you think your parents or friends or society wants to hear.  

Same with guys.  They should be told something like "go ahead and be 'nerdy' if you want, but realize that it's probably going to make finding a girlfriend harder" instead of "be yourself" or "do whatever you want".  Or "sometimes you have to curse someone out or fight, even though you will probably get in trouble for this" instead of "be nice".  

The more people know, the more they can make informed choices instead of just doing whatever and wondering why it doesn't work.  I think a little honesty on all sides would go a long way.

---

I don't base who I am attracted to on looks alone. Personality is far more important to me, as is who the guy is on the inside.

That's actually pretty admirable.  Not being sarcastic either.  But you have to understand that it's also not that common.

Perhaps part of your problem is that you seem all about negativity, whereas "Chad" has confidence and knows how to put a good foot forward. 

It's easy for "Chad" to have confidence because things have been going his way literally from birth, so why wouldn't he be confident when he knows no other way?  At some point in his early youth, he realizes he is bigger and stronger and/or richer than others, and believes it must be that he is inherently better than them.  Or, he's from a "hard" culture, and only presented one choice for his personality.  He makes friends with like-minded guys, and life pretty much lets them coast for the rest of their days.  Nothing ever threatens to kick their *** or show them up or force them to shut up, drop the ego, and get in line.

Meanwhile as a non-macho man, things rarely ever go your way, and probably nobody even tells you why cause they don't know themselves.  It starts to feel pretty hopeless when you try different things, but no matter what you do, it just doesn't budge.  It looks so easy for everyone else but you, you're frozen out.  I can't remember if I was ever told this specifically, but I've heard "just be confident" before.  But the problem with that is, it's incomplete advice.  Confidence comes from past wins, things you are good at, things you can beat others at, times where you made things go your way with your power, cunning, or skill.  If you don't have any past wins or special skills, things you seem to just naturally take to, then you're going to have a hard time justifying a confident attitude.

But a lot of people confuse confidence with arrogance.  "Chad" has both, confidence gets him in the door, but that confidence is soon revealed to be arrogance.  A lot of people can't tell the difference at first meetings unless it's very obvious.

I have yet to hear of a woman break up with a man because of arrogance, let alone refusing to give him a chance in the first place because of arrogance.  Maybe it happens, but I don't think it's common.

So yeah "Chad" might get more dates, but how successful is he at maintaining those relationships?

From what I've seen?  Very.  It seems like a simple formula, even: remember to smooth-talk and pepper your conversations with insults and comebacks or sexual innuendoes, or just insult other people or things to make yourself seem cooler/tougher/"edgier" by comparison.  Then all you have to do is don't beat, don't cheat, rinse wash repeat.  At least that's how it looks to me.

That said, Chad is likely an *******

Well, thanks for admitting that much.  It's better than nothing, I'll take it!

---

The issue is you, not women. Convincing yourself of this conspiracy and being around others who propagate that notion has and will continue to do nothing for you.

Couldn't it possibly be that at least a part of this is that culture changed, and what used to be good advice for attracting women is now out of date?  Or that some people's interests, personality, body, and culture aren't favored in this area of life?

These guys make it their defining trait

It's kind of forced on them.  Hence, "involuntary".  

Besides, what other traits could they have instead?  Personally, I fear that guys wind up this way because they're both untalented (and therefore unable to really cultivate other traits effectively), and not macho, which is how most machos get around not having to bother with talent or knowledge or cultivating a unique personality.

don't want to do the work (IE, self-improvement, introspection, not blaming others) that would actually fix their issues.

See, this is what I'm talking about.  You say self-improvement is the answer one minute, then you say no, they're all ****** because of biological determinism the next.  Which is it?  Would self-improvement fix their issues, or are they too untalented or genetically inferior to self-improve in any meaningful way?

I've personally read countless articles and typed pages of introspection to myself, going over my entire life and trying to figure out how I got here.  I feel like I've finally figured out a lot, but I wish I'd known all this stuff sooner.

And I've tried to self-improve in various ways.  But nothing happened, not with women, not even with the things I was trying to improve at.  And I'm not the only one.  I've never been a member of any incel forums, and I don't plan to either, but I read some stuff there just to see what kinds of people are on there anyway and what their situation is really like instead of letting the media tell me what to think and seeing if their situation was like mine, and if you don't count the trolls and extremely stereotypical nerds, some of them are actually fairly regular people.  That's the scary part.  A lot of these guys, they lift weights, they stay in shape, they're educated and have at least half-decent to good jobs, they read and have interests and hobbies, they have their own place, and some of them even have nice cars.  They do everything a man is supposed to and all the "self-improvement" ****, but no women care.  Some of them seem like well-spoken people with a decent enough disposition, but the main thing seems to be they all lack that aggressive, competitive, dominant, hierarchical personality.  They don't have that "edgy", sarcastic, mocking, sneering tone.  None of them seem very casually superior or rebellious either.  I think women think of them as "boringly friendly" middle-class guys.  They come across as too mild, no thrills, no suspense.  They don't have power to lord over anyone.  They come across as too G-rated, too Disney, not offensive or dangerous - at least not in the "cool" sense of those terms, the kind that comes from a place of power instead of frustration.  And I'm not sure what anyone can do about that.

They ***** and moan loudly

Remind us about this next time something is getting you down.

Even trying to help them and say there are many types of women, and maybe they're after the wrong types, etc, and even when I say I've lived these experiences too; you only get replies of "Where do these women exist? I want to go there!" or the like.

That still doesn't really help though.  I've seen difference in personalities and interests, but not so much the guys they choose.  What makes someone "wrong" or "right" anyway?  It's more than common interests or being able to hold a conversation, that's for sure.  And what if I don't like anyone that is "right" for me, because the only thing that makes them "right" is common problems, the main thing I have in common with the person is something that I wish I didn't have?

Even though what I'm describing is 99% of women and they're everywhere. The women who posted in THIS topic are further proof that almost no woman acts like the "Stacy" they've built up in their minds.

I wouldn't say that people on a forum for loneliness - and I include myself here - are an accurate representation of the mainstream population.  No offense, but we're here mostly because of problems, not because everything goes our way.  How people feel and think about things on here isn't necessarily what most people feel and think, cause they don't have our personalities and haven't had our experiences.  I don't like using these terms, but you're not going to hear from "Stacies" in a place like this, cause they just aren't going to be here.

But see, it's always outside forces; someone else's fault. It wouldn't matter if they changed location or any other superficial thing they think will help; THEY, with their inane and idiotic mindset are the real turn off, so they'll see it wherever they are, wherever they go, because it's them that is the problem.

Again, what can they do?  Try and get good at things they may not be able to, or even be interested in?  Adopt personalities way outside of their culture and everything they agree with or makes sense for them to be?  

Personal responsibility can help with some things, but sometimes it doesnt do anything, and sometimes there really is someone to blame.  Maybe it's not women, but it could at least be the culture.  And maybe there's not even anything to do about it but play the game, but I don't see what's so wrong with saying "damn, this sucks!" every once in a while.  Or saying, "I don't know what to do, I've tried things and nothing seems to work, I feel hopeless".  Venting helps.

But the fact you view "Men who are still virgins past a certain age" as some sort of outbreak is absolutely hysterical.

Nothing says "classy" as much as laughing at people's despair, amirite?

Maybe when you stop viewing women as solely tools to get your **** wet

Right, because yuppies, guidos, bros, gangstas, rednecks, burnouts, and all the other "alpha" types are so known for how much they are so fascinated by women's personalities, and see the personality first, and the body second.  Almost as much as they are known for their own kind, warm, inclusive, pleasant personalities, good values, and brilliant life choices.  The fact that they mostly go after hot women is pure coincidence.  And they'd never dream of objectifying women, ever!  

you can learn that *** isn't the most important thing ever.

Well, somebody needs to tell those guys that, because they clearly didn't get the memo.  They're missing out!

Not that I expect much understanding or anything, but to give you a sense of what it feels like, for me, this feels like a weight on me, or a ceiling I can't get through, or a gravity well I can't escape.  Or maybe most like a gated community that I can see into, but can't get into no matter what, because I'm just not good enough.  There's never been any indication that I've ever even been close to good enough for anyone, and the fear that I'm never going to get to experience not only *** but a relationship, sharing good feelings and conversation with someone on that level, all the little things, the connection, having someone like this in my lifetime is not a ******* joke, it's real.  The feeling that nothing I could possibly think or say or do will ever be good enough no matter how hard I work is real, because I just can't find it in me to be "cool" and "badass" and I dont know if I can make up for it.  The feeling that it's just my **** luck and I can't overcome it and change my story is real.  And the feeling that I'm somehow chosen to miss out, pisses me off, especially when all kinds of unremarkable to awful guys have such an easy time with this.  But there's nothing I can do except try to figure out how to be somebody else.  

all you really care about is free ***

And if you think "alpha males" care about something more than this, boy are there a lot of guys you should meet.

For someone who says that there are many different kinds of women, you sure don't believe there can be many kinds of men who struggle with attraction, or their desires and motivations.  Weird.

and any woman worth her weight picks up on that right away and rightfully wants no part of you.

A lot of people seem to get off on feeling superior to someone, and like I said, society is getting more stratified, it seems to be getting worse.  If you can't be better than anyone, then who are you better than?  A lot of people are very hierarchical.  It sucks.

"Stacy" and "Chad"; literally those are the only two words you say all day, I'd wager.

You mean like "self-improvement" and "entitled" for your side?

You know, as much as I don't agree with that mindset or the whole incel movement, man makes a sad point. It IS at a historic high. At some point, people with knowledge on human psychology should really, in depth, study the phenomena and figure out exactly what is wrong.
Can we really just casually toss it on social media? Or is there really a much deeper culture problem beneath it? I wonder.

I'd chalk it up that people are maturing at a much slower rate these days for a multitude of reasons (easier lives, less responsibilities, longer lifespans, etc), and *** just happens to be one of the side-effects in that process.

I actually agree with this and think it has a lot to do with it, and I wish you'd focused on this instead cause this is actually something that could be constructive.  Life, especially in middle-class suburbia, is relatively easy and low-risk.  You don't really have to "be a man" around here, in fact you might even be encouraged not to cause it's against the rules or just nasty.  It's not really stressed and you're told you have other options if being macho isn't for you, or you're just left to your own devices.  

Guys in more redneck, working-class areas, or the hood, where there is more scarcity, violence, chaos and brawn is valued over brains, don't really have problems with this because the culture there is hyper-masculine.  They expect to die young from violence, industrial accidents, or lifestyle diseases, or get a lengthy jail sentence sooner or later.  You can't really be a nerdy guy in these places cause all that would make you is prey.

But that's the thing.  All these inventions were made to make our lives easier, and the safe neighborhoods were made to increase quality of life.  It's made us soft, but wasn't that the point, to not have to live hard lives anymore?  Should we throw it all away so we can be "hard" men again?  That seems kinda dumb.  But "swagless" middle-class suburban guys don't excite, so, I don't know what to do.

making people less socially adept

the guys who aren't socially ******** who can get girls

What does this really mean?  Cause just talking to people isn't it.  I can do that just fine.  I think a lot of men can.  

What it seems to mean, is the ability to project dominance socially through sarcasm, "negging"/the game of insults and comebacks, crudeness, boasting, and as I said earlier, ****-talking other people or things to make you seem cooler by comparison.  Always maneuvering for the social high ground.  But what's the alternative if this isn't "you"?

Oh and you might not want to throw that word around.  Just sayin'.

Celibacy is up by 30% for men in their 20s, compared to 8% for women.

Who... cares?

Uh...the guys struggling with this and want some answers so they can get out of it and start experiencing a normal part of life, something that's supposed to be one of the best parts of life, like everyone else, who has been taking it for granted for years, maybe?  And no, I'm not talking about just ***.  I'm talking about a relationship, the whole thing.

God, you and your like-minded pal here really put too much stake into things like ***. Sure do wonder why.... yep...

"God, you poors really put too much stake into things like jobs, money, and possessions.  Sure do wonder why.... yep..."
"God, you homeless really put too much stake into things like homes.  Sure do wonder why.... yep..."

Didn't I tell you before that it was obvious to women what the only thing you really want out of them is?  
Thanks for making it even more blatant.

I say again - yuppies, guidos, bros, gangstas, rednecks/burnouts, and all kinds of celebrities "only want one thing out of women" and they don't even try to hide it, nor do they hide the fact that they think they are above women and that women exist just for their sexual gratification.  
But you let these guys slide.  Why?

and at least we know they're the last of their generation and there won't be more of them, at least from their bloodlines.
Not a bad outcome, honestly.
...
Like I said, good. Women deserve better.
...
Also, we even have cures for that. It's called a hooker. So either go get laid or shut up already with this incessant whining.

Wow.  You know, I actually agreed with you on some posts of yours on other threads, and liked some of the things you said.  Sometimes you could even say something that sounded a little bit hopeful.  But this, you pushed it too far.  I get that this isn't my forum and I'm not a mod but this isn't cool.  
 
I mean, do you not get or care about how insulting and degrading that last part is..."you are so inherently inferior and worthless that you have to risk life-ruining diseases, pay money, oh and break the law to get what guys with legitimately, unapologetically awful personalities have been taking for granted all their lives".  

"You guys need to just be confident and take responsibility bro...but it doesn't really matter, because you're inherently lesser."

And it's no more constructive than simply complaining about the problem either.

You sure seem to enjoy harassing some people, why is that?  Do it make you feel superior or a sense of control?  You know how that makes you look, right?

Probably.  He thinks he can cow them, that they won't put up a fight.  Not this fish, though.  

I got a little passionate here, and holy hell, I actually agreed with you multiple times in one post.  Now if you'll all excuse me, there's a tall, red goat-looking fellow knocking on my door and asking if he can borrow a coat.

---

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---

---

Here's my official response to everything you just wrote:

Oh ******* brother.

I didn't know you until now, and yikes. There is no reasoning at all with someone so deluded. Have fun with your miserable life. I feel nothing but pity for you.
So done with incels.

But... are you sure you're going to go and agree with Callie there? She is a woman after all. Can't have that.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Didn't know you until now..... and yikes. Another live one here.

There's no reasoning with someone as deluded as you. I'll spare my precious time.

Right.  So rather than a rational discourse of defending your points when challenged, you're just going to go straight for the good old handy-dandy ad-hominem attacks, right out of the gate.  My points weren't even that bad, and anything I said with snark was only in response to the way you talked to Michael. Which were very unnecessarily insulting and condescending as ****.  As I said, stay classy, homes.  You don't know me, but I know you, and maybe this just might be why more and more people seem to be calling you out. I let it go for a while, but I just couldn't sit on the sidelines and let you bully people anymore. You're such a damn attraction genius, I'd actually like to hear some of your detailed, well-thought out answers on how a guy can pick himself up from hopelessness to a pleasant, romantic life. Seriously. But you don't accept the challenge to defend or explain your position, just mocking condescension. ****'s weak brah.

And you do know me, we talked on other threads where I thought you had some points.  But probably not anymore.

I didn't think there'd be any reasoning with a social Darwinist either, but I thought what the hell, I'd try to offer another point of view with some perspective, and give some humanity to people that aren't often heard from in any kind of serious discussion.  Maybe we could have an intelligent discussion and maybe even come to some kind of understanding, or a solution. But nope.

"Precious time", lol. I could go there, I got a few ideas what that means. But nah.

PS - might want to lose the videogame and weeaboo ****.  Either that, or drop all this thinking you can shame me ********, acting like you're some kind of big man. Cause that **** you have there, that's not very manly.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Here's my official response to everything you just wrote:

Oh ******* brother.

Hey everyone, let's have a round of applause for the big hero!  (slow clap) YEAH!  WOO!  

There is no reasoning at all with someone so deluded.

As if you reason with people anyway.  So far I've hardly seen you reason with anyone, especially people who disagree - isn't that what reasoning is for?  If it's someone you disagree with, or just feel like you're better than, then all you've got is snark and condescension.  I don't think you really know what you're talking about, to be honest.  If you've gotten anywhere with women, it's all been dumb luck.  And these women you claim to have been with, we have no idea what they are like. Maybe they were just desperate, for all we know. Maybe you could charm them for a little while, until they saw through you.  You won't defend your points, resort to ad hominem immediately when challenged, just seem to enjoy pissing people off in general, yeah, cause bullying and pissing people off on purpose is what mature people do.  Forum trolling, this is your "precious time", yeah?  Sounds pretty ******* miserable to me.  And you pity ME?  I'll tell you who I pity - any woman that's ever bought your snake oil.

Have fun with your miserable life. I feel nothing but pity for you.

Says the wannabe-Japanese anime nerd, cause we all know those guys kill it with women.  I'm sure you're going places dude.  You know what I feel about you?  Yeah, I know, you don't care, but too bad cause I'm going to tell you anyway.  I feel that you're a pseudo-intellectual, and a charlatan.  You exaggerate your knowledge, skills, success, and status, if you have any of those at all.  Talk about deluded, lol.  And some kind of self-hating nerd, maybe you feel like you're making up for some kind of sexless phase you had yourself.  If you're such a boss, got everything all figured out, have no problems attracting women, Mr. Successful, Mr. Interesting, Mr. Sophisticated, Mr. Social Skills, the damn Dos Equis guy, then why the hell are you even here?  Oh right, so you can feel like a somebody "wowing" people with your "knowledge" that don't know any better enough to question it, and feel strong punching down on people you think are better than, and won't fight back.  

You were talking about guys complaining about virginity being "absolutely hysterical", but what's even more so is the fact that you were the one who was talking about guys being socially "********" (your word, not mine, which strongly implies that you think struggling men are inherently inferior, and you're inherently superior) but nothing you've said has looked too good either.  I don't feel like you're really that competent socially, otherwise you'd have handled our interaction better.  A real social pro would have won me over, or at least had a calm discussion instead of not even trying to do anything but piss me off.  The fact that you are pathologically incapable of addressing this topic in a civil way, that's your social incompetence showing dude.  Not to mention immaturity. What the **** is this, high school?  You living out some kind of jock fantasy or something?  "Hey let's bully the virgins, let's bully the guys that are talking about their feelings, let's bully the guys who are having a hard time, look at me, I'm so ******* cool".  You know, instead of helping. Seriously, you claimed to care about lonely guys getting the right information, which you also claim to have. But when given a perfect opportunity to share it and help solve a problem you claim to want to solve, all you have to offer is mockery, a high-horse attitude, and brown-nosing. It just makes you look like you got nothing after all. And if you don't like this issue or the people who struggle with it, just be thankful it isn't you, ignore it and go to some other thread.  Damn.

What's also hysterical is that everything you've thrown at others throughout your posts can be thrown back at you, easily.  It only adds more suspicion that you're just projecting your own insecurities, self-hate, incompetence and weakness on others, so you can feel strong, sophisticated, righteous, and superior.

But... are you sure you're going to go and agree with Callie there? She is a woman after all. Can't have that.

Yeah, I am, cause what I think and how I am doesn't fit your stereotypes and narratives about what romantically struggling men are supposed to be like. What are you going to do then huh? Just default to mocking condescension? That's all you people do, you find the worst examples and assume everyone is all the same, instead of actually hearing anybody's story. And you wonder why this is a problem. People like me and OP talk about our problems not even to you or anyone in particular, people like you tell us to shut up and you enjoy a good sneering laugh, people like us tell you to go to hell while we sink deeper into anger, despair, and a lack of knowledge about what to do, and nothing changes for the better. You like to talk about pity parties, but all you do is mocking parties, when you know ****-all else about a person except how they feel on this issue. And even then you don't know all of it. It's lame.

Callie and I have been adversaries, and I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I respect her more as an adversary because at least she makes the effort to defend her points and empathize at least a little bit, and isn't nearly as condescending as you.  

One more thing, you're right.  You don't ******* know me, or what I believe about women.  Or pretty much anything.  Don't tell me what I can or can't have, what is all I care about, what I think, or what I believe.

And for anyone who thinks I'm in the wrong, or that I'm being unnecessarily mean to this guy, nah. I'm just giving him back what he gave out first.

[youtube]ny6SJCNUzqY[/youtube]

 

[ardour]

Enpatsu somehow I doubt you'd use those shaming tactics against the men having a lot of casual *** and mistreating women in the process; no, you'd rather just  punch down.

And I'm not the only one who thinks you're not all that successful with women either. Like some bullied kid trying to bully others to re-assert his ego. Oh well better you do it online I suppose.

 

[TheRealCallie]

So yeah, no way in hell am I going through all that mess to quote ****, so keep up or don't, I don't really care. Lol

Ska-
Of course the culture changed, it always does. I still feel that it has a lot to do with the technology available today. Everyone is doing everything online...and I do mean everything...and no one is going out there to live like it used to be. Even when they are out living, they are half the time stuck in their phones. (Not everyone, but a good majority)
Your mentality about Chad having everything from birth is completely wrong. I know a lot of chads, they do not have an easy life. They deal with the same **** everyone else does. They struggle and get depressed, they cry. They do everything you and I do. You just don't see it because of the mask they force themselves to wear. Granted, this doesn't apply to every single Chad, but I'd bet it's a large chunk of them.
I have actually broken up with guys because they were arrogant and I've turned guys down that were arrogant. I don't tolerate that ****. Some arrogance is okay in moderation, but only a little for certain things.
You say you don't think it's common, but if you really look at the numbers, neither is older people being virgins. I don't say that to be a *****, just trying to be it in another perspective.
You also have to look at who the Chads date. If you look deeper into a long term relationship, you will likely either see that Chad isn't as bad as you thought or the woman has some of her own issues and/or insecurities.

Enpatsu-
How is the op believing and posting about something any different than you believing and posting about something? It's not your job to tell people what they can and can't believe. It's not your job to harass and insult people just because they believe a different way than you do.
You aren't God, so stop acting like you are. You aren't judge and jury, so stop acting like you are.
Also when certain people start agreeing with me, that says a lot of what the topic at hand really is. So there's that, too. One huge difference between us is that I don't insult and debase people to get my point across. Yeah, I might come off condescending at times, but most of those times I don't intend to come off that way. I actually want to help people, not just preach at them and damn them to hell when they don't immediately do as I say. They have to figure **** out in their own time and in their own way.

 

[LostintheBardo]

We live in a society where women have been built up and men relentlessly torn down. It's gotten so bad women have essentially become untouchable. ... Meanwhile a guy with a 'dad bod'  is mercilessly trashed. 

Naturally women still desire a degree of male validation but that can easily be found on social media.  This leaves men seeking female validation from women who are his physical and social equal.  But he can't get it because those women get their validation online and don't need to get it from him.

It's the SkaFish Wall of Text Show.  Read at your peril!

You know, I find it ironic that you mention the "dad bod" because I remember one of my favorite models saying somewhere on YouTube that she liked "dad bods".  I thought to myself, "sooo, howYOU doin'...." lol.  Anyway.  I don't think that's the issue here, I haven't seen anyone get trashed for it.  And I don't think the situation is as extreme as you or some others online have said.  It's easy to exaggerate when you are in despair.  I am too.  But, I do think that there's definitely something going on.

I've heard about the social media thing too, and one thing I try to do is that if I'm attracted to a woman online, I try to avoid "liking" or commenting on photos of herself, and only about pictures or other posts about her interests, or if she actually says or does something I think is cool.  I try to make sure I send the message that I'm not here to be an orbiter, to be used for validation, I'm here to talk about the things about them that I find interesting and hopefully connect.  I don't think it's a magic answer, but I try to be more conscious of any little thing I can do to avoid them categorizing me as some kind of inferior, and instead as an equal, someone to take seriously.

The common criticism of incels is that these men think they are entitled to ***.  Common critiques are for these men to improve themselves and stop whining.  Such responses are typical misandry you see on a daily basis.  When men have problems, they are simply told to shut up and pull ther boot straps up and deal with it.  

Think for a second that an incel has to endure.  He's constantly told by society and media what a loser he is for not having a girlfriend or ***, not to mention his natural tendencies for wanting love from the opposite ***.  So a significant portion of his self worth is tied up with female validation.   When women, even those equal to him in status and physical looks ignore him because they get their validation from social media, this can be devastating.  It's like an eco system that has been thrown out of balance and because men, not women are getting the raw deal nobody cares.

That's another common theme I've seen, which frankly pisses me off.  Nobody seems to want to hear when men are having a hard time, nobody wants to offer compassion or even a space to vent, let alone actually telling men what to do to fix things beyond the generic "self-improve", like what does that even mean.  You're supposed to know this stuff instinctively, and if you don't, people just write you off as weak and inherently inferior, and your suffering is right and natural.  It's funny because people seem to preach self-improvement to men as the answer, but also believing in biological determinism at the same time.  I always think, what if you try self-improvement and it doesn't work?  This "advice", it always seems insincere, like they tell you to self-improve while not really believing that you can, because it's more about them wanting to come off as the good guy than about actually helping you figure this out.  I feel like it's pretty sick that for what is to some people a genuine cause of distress, others who have mostly never been in this situation or only got out due to dumb luck feel like it's a joke.

And the whole "entitled to ***" thing is particularly aggravating, because that's basically one of the key parts of the "alpha male" personality.  Yet nobody ever seems to care about that.  The funny thing is, if you try to have some confidence or try to assert yourself like they say a man is supposed to, then they turn around and use the word "entitled" to try and beat you back down into your place.  It makes you feel like you're never going to be good enough.  Honestly I think it's just a word that people use to invalidate and socially police people they feel are weaker than them, and that's pretty much it.  

While nobody is saying anyone should be forced to date anyone they don't like, wanting to be with someone sexually, romantically, emotionally is a valid human wish, much more central to our well-being than something like being rich or a celebrity.  It's not an "extra".  So all this "entitled to ***" stuff, well, **** that noise.

And I totally hear you about society and the media.  Society says be confident, don't base your self worth on others, and all that, then turns around and virgin-shames you.  It's another one of these double standards.  

I agree women have issues they have to deal with as well.  But being an average looking guy nowadays is insufferable.  If you don't have 6 pack abs or an aggressive dominating personality your considered inferior, or a beta male. 

I'd say it's this, right here - not the 6 pack, but the aggressive, competitive, dominating, hierarchical personality.  Traditionally masculine interests, loudness, popularity, vulgarity, sarcasm, "negging", and crude sexual slang or innuendoes, booze and drugs, money, violence, or breaking the law (or at least the illusion of these things), objectifying women (ironically), an attitude of superiority, and either the business ****** or the industrial worker/redneck/outlaw/burnout archetype.  That's the thing I've seen is the most surefire way of attracting a woman.  Someone can say it's not nice to say that, or it's misogynistic, or whatever.  But I'm not saying this to be offensive.  I'm saying it because I've witnessed it, many times.

It seems the only way around that is by being very successful, like being nearly a pro athlete or musician or actor, being a CEO or some other very well-paid position, being a member of an elite military unit, being some kind of extreme sports guy, or something like that.  It would be nice if we could all just "work hard" and "believe in ourselves" and "not give up" until we could get to this level, but I'm not sure if it's possible.  For me, a big thing that I ponder, maybe too much, is the idea of natural, genetic talent vs. hard work.  Born vs made, nature vs nurture.  Which is more important?  If your genetics, your nature are all zeroes, what can you really do?

Other than that, the only other option seems to be dumb luck.  Hoping and wishing.  It's frustrating because it's like people feel like the only reason a guy isn't macho is because he's like you said, some kind of biologically inferior beta male, and not because he just doesn't have those interests, doesn't come from that culture, just doesn't feel the need to be that way.

Issue is you, not women.

When is the issue ever women?  They are never held accountable.   If a man says on his dating profile he wants a woman with large breasts, then he is a sexist who sees women as objects.  If a woman writes on her dating profile she wants a man at least 6' tall with 6 pack abs she's just describing the guy she wants physically and won't be judged.

   
Truth.   Again, I haven't seen the 6 pack thing, but I've seen the height thing lots of times.  Luckily for me height isn't my problem, but still.   Another double standard.

That's the thing though.  As long as you still want a woman, there's nothing any of us can really do about this.  Sometime between now and our parents' day, the culture changed, values changed.  I find that there's a lot of parallels between dating and capitalism.  You can say the system sucks all day, but as long as it has something you want or need, you have no choice but to learn the rules and play the game.

Tell me how much self improvement Chad put in to be so attractive to women?  He lifted some weights?  

What effort are women putting into improving themselves?  Or are they perfect as they are like what feminism wants us to believe? And men are toxic dirty losers who need to shape up to be to worthy of perfect women.

A lot of these guys?  Not ****.  Words like "self-improvement", "hard work", and "discipline" aren't in their dictionary, not that they have one.  A lot of these guys can't even be assed to go to the gym, and I can tell because they have no muscle tone.  They get by on just being born into a strong-fat body type, and a macho personality.  It's sort of amazing how far you can go on these two things alone.

Recently I looked up some people I went to school with online, just to see what the deal is.  These guys were the shady people, kind of like a cross between Jersey Shore guidos and Homer Simpson, if he was a ******.  Most of them are straight-up fat, and talk about nothing except generic macho interests.  They all talk and look more or less the same, and like whatever culture is popular right now.  They seem to have very little ambition beyond getting a cozy job where they don't have to think much, and they don't seem to do anything except drink and yell in various places.  And yet, almost all of these guys either have a girlfriend, or are even married.  Granted, I wouldn't be interested in the women they're with, but still.  I feel like I have to do all this work just to "have a personality" or "be interesting" or whatever, and it might be beyond my abilities or it just might not work, and these guys basically have to just show up, drunk, loud, slovenly, not really good at anything and no intellectual curiosity and not even in shape or good-looking, and it's OK.  I can't help but feel like, what the **** man, seriously.  

To be fair, a lot of women actually do put a lot of work into being attractive, at least physically.  But where a lot of them don't seem to do much work, is personality-wise.  I can't tell you how many dating profiles I've seen that list traveling, pizza, wine, country, rap, or EDM, "going out and staying in", and "loving to laugh" as their interests, if that much, and they all more or less talk and think the same way.  I don't know how I'd talk to someone like this even if I wanted to.  And I don't, cause I want someone I want to explore, and can share my interests and enthusiasm with and would take me in a direction I want to go.  But people like that are few and far between, and also think they are better than me, I guess.

I don't know, man.  All I can say is, somewhere along the line culture changed, people got colder and more into status and power, and I think we have to accept that we have to do more work to be good enough than the machos, and maybe even the average guy, and we have less margin for error.  People don't WANT to give us a break, we have to overcome their prejudgment that we are lesser.  As non-macho men, our fitness, intelligence, sense of style, abilities, knowledge base, finances, and all that has to be on point, and we have to make sure that when talking to a woman we want to date, we have to look like our life is some kind of party all the time, and to show as little weakness as possible.  It's just the way it is.

---

^Confidence is connected to stereotypical notions of masculinity, whether you want to admit that or not,  so you're kind of re-enforcing his point (that self-improvement is only expected of men).

I don't really agree with the Chad/Stacey, 80/20 crap,  since it's obviously a ridiculous exaggeration, but men are facing a lot of mixed messages lately. On one hand cishet males  are 'toxic' with entitlement and a threat  to everyone around them. Yet they're still expected to be the initiators, to carry and earn relationships and exemplify stoicism while doing it. It's no wonder  socially awkward men become bitter and buy into certain ideas to try to explain it all.

Right you are.  I've seen something like "women are loved for who they are, while men are loved for what they do" or something similar, a couple times.  Of course, this doesn't apply to the machos, who get out of jail free. 

The thing I think is, as a male, it seems like you can't just do whatever, be any way you want to be.  There are tons of unspoken rules, or things that are presented as choices if they're presented at all, but are more like rules.  And there's all these nuances.  "Be yourself" - except when your interests and personality aren't macho.  "Don't worry about fitting in or being popular or cool" - except that's what a lot of women wind up going for.  "Be nice, get good grades, stay out of trouble" - except that it gets everyone to see you as a lame and sometimes fighting is the answer.  "Don't be shallow and judge people for their looks and money or act like you're better than anyone else" - except that the "cool" guys do, and it doesn't hurt them at all.  "Women like sweet guys" - except that they tend to go for guys who are into violence, sarcasm, vulgarity, sexual slang and innuendos, the game of insults and comebacks, and an air of superiority.  "It's OK to be sensitive and non-macho, talk about your feelings" - except when it gets women to see you as naturally weak and inherently inferior, like it is right in this thread.

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This is so scary to me...this attitude.

Can we educate and help??

What's scary to me is how social Darwinism seems to be on the rise, and there seems to be less and less compassion for people whose interests, personality, and background don't match the new culture and values.  "I've got mine, screw you" and "if you can't compete, you're inferior" seems to be getting more and more common.  

As for educating and helping, one thing that would help is for women to say what they actually want.  I've seen it said many times that in our society, women are "pressured to be nice", due to gender roles, keeping up appearances, and a desire to avoid conflict.  I say, say what you mean.  If you want a nice and sweet and sensitive guy, say so.  If you want a sarcastic, insulting guy, or a lewd and crude overly sexual guy, or a guy who looks like he's spent his whole life in and out of jail, or a guy who shows up in a Ferrari, say so.  Own it, no matter how nice or nasty, and decide what is really "you".  Don't say what you think your parents or friends or society wants to hear.  

Same with guys.  They should be told something like "go ahead and be 'nerdy' if you want, but realize that it's probably going to make finding a girlfriend harder" instead of "be yourself" or "do whatever you want".  Or "sometimes you have to curse someone out or fight, even though you will probably get in trouble for this" instead of "be nice".  

The more people know, the more they can make informed choices instead of just doing whatever and wondering why it doesn't work.  I think a little honesty on all sides would go a long way.

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I don't base who I am attracted to on looks alone. Personality is far more important to me, as is who the guy is on the inside.

That's actually pretty admirable.  Not being sarcastic either.  But you have to understand that it's also not that common.

Perhaps part of your problem is that you seem all about negativity, whereas "Chad" has confidence and knows how to put a good foot forward. 

It's easy for "Chad" to have confidence because things have been going his way literally from birth, so why wouldn't he be confident when he knows no other way?  At some point in his early youth, he realizes he is bigger and stronger and/or richer than others, and believes it must be that he is inherently better than them.  Or, he's from a "hard" culture, and only presented one choice for his personality.  He makes friends with like-minded guys, and life pretty much lets them coast for the rest of their days.  Nothing ever threatens to kick their *** or show them up or force them to shut up, drop the ego, and get in line.

Meanwhile as a non-macho man, things rarely ever go your way, and probably nobody even tells you why cause they don't know themselves.  It starts to feel pretty hopeless when you try different things, but no matter what you do, it just doesn't budge.  It looks so easy for everyone else but you, you're frozen out.  I can't remember if I was ever told this specifically, but I've heard "just be confident" before.  But the problem with that is, it's incomplete advice.  Confidence comes from past wins, things you are good at, things you can beat others at, times where you made things go your way with your power, cunning, or skill.  If you don't have any past wins or special skills, things you seem to just naturally take to, then you're going to have a hard time justifying a confident attitude.

But a lot of people confuse confidence with arrogance.  "Chad" has both, confidence gets him in the door, but that confidence is soon revealed to be arrogance.  A lot of people can't tell the difference at first meetings unless it's very obvious.

I have yet to hear of a woman break up with a man because of arrogance, let alone refusing to give him a chance in the first place because of arrogance.  Maybe it happens, but I don't think it's common.

So yeah "Chad" might get more dates, but how successful is he at maintaining those relationships?

From what I've seen?  Very.  It seems like a simple formula, even: remember to smooth-talk and pepper your conversations with insults and comebacks or sexual innuendoes, or just insult other people or things to make yourself seem cooler/tougher/"edgier" by comparison.  Then all you have to do is don't beat, don't cheat, rinse wash repeat.  At least that's how it looks to me.

That said, Chad is likely an *******

Well, thanks for admitting that much.  It's better than nothing, I'll take it!

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The issue is you, not women. Convincing yourself of this conspiracy and being around others who propagate that notion has and will continue to do nothing for you.

Couldn't it possibly be that at least a part of this is that culture changed, and what used to be good advice for attracting women is now out of date?  Or that some people's interests, personality, body, and culture aren't favored in this area of life?

These guys make it their defining trait

It's kind of forced on them.  Hence, "involuntary".  

Besides, what other traits could they have instead?  Personally, I fear that guys wind up this way because they're both untalented (and therefore unable to really cultivate other traits effectively), and not macho, which is how most machos get around not having to bother with talent or knowledge or cultivating a unique personality.

don't want to do the work (IE, self-improvement, introspection, not blaming others) that would actually fix their issues.

See, this is what I'm talking about.  You say self-improvement is the answer one minute, then you say no, they're all ****** because of biological determinism the next.  Which is it?  Would self-improvement fix their issues, or are they too untalented or genetically inferior to self-improve in any meaningful way?

I've personally read countless articles and typed pages of introspection to myself, going over my entire life and trying to figure out how I got here.  I feel like I've finally figured out a lot, but I wish I'd known all this stuff sooner.

And I've tried to self-improve in various ways.  But nothing happened, not with women, not even with the things I was trying to improve at.  And I'm not the only one.  I've never been a member of any incel forums, and I don't plan to either, but I read some stuff there just to see what kinds of people are on there anyway and what their situation is really like instead of letting the media tell me what to think and seeing if their situation was like mine, and if you don't count the trolls and extremely stereotypical nerds, some of them are actually fairly regular people.  That's the scary part.  A lot of these guys, they lift weights, they stay in shape, they're educated and have at least half-decent to good jobs, they read and have interests and hobbies, they have their own place, and some of them even have nice cars.  They do everything a man is supposed to and all the "self-improvement" ****, but no women care.  Some of them seem like well-spoken people with a decent enough disposition, but the main thing seems to be they all lack that aggressive, competitive, dominant, hierarchical personality.  They don't have that "edgy", sarcastic, mocking, sneering tone.  None of them seem very casually superior or rebellious either.  I think women think of them as "boringly friendly" middle-class guys.  They come across as too mild, no thrills, no suspense.  They don't have power to lord over anyone.  They come across as too G-rated, too Disney, not offensive or dangerous - at least not in the "cool" sense of those terms, the kind that comes from a place of power instead of frustration.  And I'm not sure what anyone can do about that.

They ***** and moan loudly

Remind us about this next time something is getting you down.

Even trying to help them and say there are many types of women, and maybe they're after the wrong types, etc, and even when I say I've lived these experiences too; you only get replies of "Where do these women exist? I want to go there!" or the like.

That still doesn't really help though.  I've seen difference in personalities and interests, but not so much the guys they choose.  What makes someone "wrong" or "right" anyway?  It's more than common interests or being able to hold a conversation, that's for sure.  And what if I don't like anyone that is "right" for me, because the only thing that makes them "right" is common problems, the main thing I have in common with the person is something that I wish I didn't have?

Even though what I'm describing is 99% of women and they're everywhere. The women who posted in THIS topic are further proof that almost no woman acts like the "Stacy" they've built up in their minds.

I wouldn't say that people on a forum for loneliness - and I include myself here - are an accurate representation of the mainstream population.  No offense, but we're here mostly because of problems, not because everything goes our way.  How people feel and think about things on here isn't necessarily what most people feel and think, cause they don't have our personalities and haven't had our experiences.  I don't like using these terms, but you're not going to hear from "Stacies" in a place like this, cause they just aren't going to be here.

But see, it's always outside forces; someone else's fault. It wouldn't matter if they changed location or any other superficial thing they think will help; THEY, with their inane and idiotic mindset are the real turn off, so they'll see it wherever they are, wherever they go, because it's them that is the problem.

Again, what can they do?  Try and get good at things they may not be able to, or even be interested in?  Adopt personalities way outside of their culture and everything they agree with or makes sense for them to be?  

Personal responsibility can help with some things, but sometimes it doesnt do anything, and sometimes there really is someone to blame.  Maybe it's not women, but it could at least be the culture.  And maybe there's not even anything to do about it but play the game, but I don't see what's so wrong with saying "damn, this sucks!" every once in a while.  Or saying, "I don't know what to do, I've tried things and nothing seems to work, I feel hopeless".  Venting helps.

But the fact you view "Men who are still virgins past a certain age" as some sort of outbreak is absolutely hysterical.

Nothing says "classy" as much as laughing at people's despair, amirite?

Maybe when you stop viewing women as solely tools to get your **** wet

Right, because yuppies, guidos, bros, gangstas, rednecks, burnouts, and all the other "alpha" types are so known for how much they are so fascinated by women's personalities, and see the personality first, and the body second.  Almost as much as they are known for their own kind, warm, inclusive, pleasant personalities, good values, and brilliant life choices.  The fact that they mostly go after hot women is pure coincidence.  And they'd never dream of objectifying women, ever!  

you can learn that *** isn't the most important thing ever.

Well, somebody needs to tell those guys that, because they clearly didn't get the memo.  They're missing out!

Not that I expect much understanding or anything, but to give you a sense of what it feels like, for me, this feels like a weight on me, or a ceiling I can't get through, or a gravity well I can't escape.  Or maybe most like a gated community that I can see into, but can't get into no matter what, because I'm just not good enough.  There's never been any indication that I've ever even been close to good enough for anyone, and the fear that I'm never going to get to experience not only *** but a relationship, sharing good feelings and conversation with someone on that level, all the little things, the connection, having someone like this in my lifetime is not a ******* joke, it's real.  The feeling that nothing I could possibly think or say or do will ever be good enough no matter how hard I work is real, because I just can't find it in me to be "cool" and "badass" and I dont know if I can make up for it.  The feeling that it's just my **** luck and I can't overcome it and change my story is real.  And the feeling that I'm somehow chosen to miss out, pisses me off, especially when all kinds of unremarkable to awful guys have such an easy time with this.  But there's nothing I can do except try to figure out how to be somebody else.  

all you really care about is free ***

And if you think "alpha males" care about something more than this, boy are there a lot of guys you should meet.

For someone who says that there are many different kinds of women, you sure don't believe there can be many kinds of men who struggle with attraction, or their desires and motivations.  Weird.

and any woman worth her weight picks up on that right away and rightfully wants no part of you.

A lot of people seem to get off on feeling superior to someone, and like I said, society is getting more stratified, it seems to be getting worse.  If you can't be better than anyone, then who are you better than?  A lot of people are very hierarchical.  It sucks.

"Stacy" and "Chad"; literally those are the only two words you say all day, I'd wager.

You mean like "self-improvement" and "entitled" for your side?

You know, as much as I don't agree with that mindset or the whole incel movement, man makes a sad point. It IS at a historic high. At some point, people with knowledge on human psychology should really, in depth, study the phenomena and figure out exactly what is wrong.
Can we really just casually toss it on social media? Or is there really a much deeper culture problem beneath it? I wonder.

I'd chalk it up that people are maturing at a much slower rate these days for a multitude of reasons (easier lives, less responsibilities, longer lifespans, etc), and *** just happens to be one of the side-effects in that process.

I actually agree with this and think it has a lot to do with it, and I wish you'd focused on this instead cause this is actually something that could be constructive.  Life, especially in middle-class suburbia, is relatively easy and low-risk.  You don't really have to "be a man" around here, in fact you might even be encouraged not to cause it's against the rules or just nasty.  It's not really stressed and you're told you have other options if being macho isn't for you, or you're just left to your own devices.  

Guys in more redneck, working-class areas, or the hood, where there is more scarcity, violence, chaos and brawn is valued over brains, don't really have problems with this because the culture there is hyper-masculine.  They expect to die young from violence, industrial accidents, or lifestyle diseases, or get a lengthy jail sentence sooner or later.  You can't really be a nerdy guy in these places cause all that would make you is prey.

But that's the thing.  All these inventions were made to make our lives easier, and the safe neighborhoods were made to increase quality of life.  It's made us soft, but wasn't that the point, to not have to live hard lives anymore?  Should we throw it all away so we can be "hard" men again?  That seems kinda dumb.  But "swagless" middle-class suburban guys don't excite, so, I don't know what to do.

making people less socially adept

the guys who aren't socially ******** who can get girls

What does this really mean?  Cause just talking to people isn't it.  I can do that just fine.  I think a lot of men can.  

What it seems to mean, is the ability to project dominance socially through sarcasm, "negging"/the game of insults and comebacks, crudeness, boasting, and as I said earlier, ****-talking other people or things to make you seem cooler by comparison.  Always maneuvering for the social high ground.  But what's the alternative if this isn't "you"?

Oh and you might not want to throw that word around.  Just sayin'.

Celibacy is up by 30% for men in their 20s, compared to 8% for women.

Who... cares?

Uh...the guys struggling with this and want some answers so they can get out of it and start experiencing a normal part of life, something that's supposed to be one of the best parts of life, like everyone else, who has been taking it for granted for years, maybe?  And no, I'm not talking about just ***.  I'm talking about a relationship, the whole thing.

God, you and your like-minded pal here really put too much stake into things like ***. Sure do wonder why.... yep...

"God, you poors really put too much stake into things like jobs, money, and possessions.  Sure do wonder why.... yep..."
"God, you homeless really put too much stake into things like homes.  Sure do wonder why.... yep..."

Didn't I tell you before that it was obvious to women what the only thing you really want out of them is?  
Thanks for making it even more blatant.

I say again - yuppies, guidos, bros, gangstas, rednecks/burnouts, and all kinds of celebrities "only want one thing out of women" and they don't even try to hide it, nor do they hide the fact that they think they are above women and that women exist just for their sexual gratification.  
But you let these guys slide.  Why?

and at least we know they're the last of their generation and there won't be more of them, at least from their bloodlines.
Not a bad outcome, honestly.
...
Like I said, good. Women deserve better.
...
Also, we even have cures for that. It's called a hooker. So either go get laid or shut up already with this incessant whining.

Wow.  You know, I actually agreed with you on some posts of yours on other threads, and liked some of the things you said.  Sometimes you could even say something that sounded a little bit hopeful.  But this, you pushed it too far.  I get that this isn't my forum and I'm not a mod but this isn't cool.  
 
I mean, do you not get or care about how insulting and degrading that last part is..."you are so inherently inferior and worthless that you have to risk life-ruining diseases, pay money, oh and break the law to get what guys with legitimately, unapologetically awful personalities have been taking for granted all their lives".  

"You guys need to just be confident and take responsibility bro...but it doesn't really matter, because you're inherently lesser."

And it's no more constructive than simply complaining about the problem either.

You sure seem to enjoy harassing some people, why is that?  Do it make you feel superior or a sense of control?  You know how that makes you look, right?

Probably.  He thinks he can cow them, that they won't put up a fight.  Not this fish, though.  

I got a little passionate here, and holy hell, I actually agreed with you multiple times in one post.  Now if you'll all excuse me, there's a tall, red goat-looking fellow knocking on my door and asking if he can borrow a coat.

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Here's my official response to everything you just wrote:

Oh ******* brother.

I didn't know you until now, and yikes. There is no reasoning at all with someone so deluded. Have fun with your miserable life. I feel nothing but pity for you.
So done with incels.

But... are you sure you're going to go and agree with Callie there? She is a woman after all. Can't have that.

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You need to work on your PR approach bro,  if you speak this way to people in real life the way I constantly see you doing on this forum then it's no surprise to me if you're having loneliness issues.  And before you respond,  I'm going to make it clear that I've had a lot of disagreements with Ska about a lot of his outlook on the subject at hand and I can still see why him and Ardour are pissed with you.

 

[user 139760]

Hey guys, if you don't want this thread locked and shut down, might keeping the convo to a civil manner and shy away from the four foot long walls of texts? I get it, some of you have strong opinions, others do too and you won't have anything else. But this is still a conversation some people want to have and should be able to have without it ending always in a locked thread.
You know, just a friendly pieçe of advise before a mod steps in.

 

[Naizo]

They gotta legalize weed so y'all m'fers can chill the hell out lmao.

*** isn't an important thing whatsoever. Bust a nut in your hand and go on about your day, damn. I find women attractive, sure, but they annoy me and I like my alone time. I've tried the whole suckin' **** thing too, but it just ain't for me.

*Shrug* I guess I just don't understand the need for validation from the opposite ***, or from any ***. I used to. But I don't anymore. Wisdom comes with age?

Then again, all I really care about in the world is the legalization of Mary Jane. Free my hoe.

I also just don't trust women, whatsoever, personally. The only women who've never lied to me are my mother and my sister, and my grandmother. And a girl I met on here I'm friends with, but we don't talk much anymore. Don't think she ever lied to me. Had no reason to. All bets are off on anyone else. So for me, even the trouble of having to figure out what a woman actually wants is beyond my ability to give a damn. I don't see why a man would want to spend time with a woman for any reason other than getting laid. They're habitual liars.

I think that's a big part of why I'm so much more chill these days. I don't deal with women outside of work, lol. I think incels are in the best possible position and they just don't know it, tbh. Girls be trying to chill with me, but they can't tell my why they're newly single? Nah, if that's a question you want to avoid answering, I'm gonna avoid giving you my time of day, you know? Mainly because I've had one tell me she was single before, but she wasn't. I'm not saying bros before hoes, but I am saying don't lie to me and make me into a side piece because we won't speak ever again, you know?

To clarify: No I'm not saying all women lie about everything. That's just my personal experience with the opposite ***, and my opinion because of it. There's just more conducive ways to spend your time than worrying about women though, 100%.

Also I read absolutely none of this thread before posting. So I'm not replying to anyone, I'm just here. It's 3 AM. I'm chilling and giving my opinion on a forum. Love everybody like your kin, til they prove they aren't worth it.

 

[Sci-Fi]

Stop the bickering, name calling and insulting each other. If you cant discuss things in a civil manner then just don't post. This has gone on long enough and if it doesn't stop now this thread will be closed and those who want to ignore this warning you'll find yourself with a temporary ban, don't care who said what, don't care if fell compelled to respond to whatever someone said to you.

IT ALL STOPS NOW!