If your your an average guy, things suck, and theres nothing you can do

[IncolaVacui]

Meh.
I'm somewhat indifferent to mostly everything regarding trending social adherences.

In short:
I don't seek validation, because I already know outright that I'm not going to get it.

Instead, I just short-circuited the algorithm entirely and replaced it. --That was my approach.

I'm kind of the guy that was like: :shy: ...Okay fine, **** it-- If I have to do all the **** in my life that I have to do totally alone with no depth of value to it whatsoever, than when I do actually pull it off (and I WILL pull it off) than I'll place such a high value on my own individual security that I'll pretty much just go Wonka and slam the doors shut. *shrug* It worked for Salinger, I'm just approaching it with love instead of with creative writing.

I'm predominately, mainly single because I am unwilling to take risks on financial security outside of my comfort zone.
I also possess very little to no spontaneity at all, or if in the event that I suddenly feel spontaneous, I first ask myself if I have the allowance for me to act upon that spontaneity. If I don't have the allowance for it, than I don't do it.

I'm also single because I totally refute the ideas of marriage and children.
For Marriage-- I don't want the government involved in my emotionally personal affairs, and I damn sure don't want them telling me what to do with the rest of the money that they aren't taking from me out of taxes.

For Children-- I've been told I have fatherly-esque qualities by single mothers before, because I'm kind and compassionate and generally don't mind kids...except that the entire reason I don't mind them is because: I don't have any. At no point to I want to clock out from work and come home to do more work, basically for free. I have no interest in genetically half-cloning myself, because the only reason why I can even control myself is because I AM me, if I were to splice half of me with half of someone else and then give that thing a sentient existence, that seems much more like a nightmare of slavery, servitude, and horrific thoughts of "please don't decide to be a mass murderer" and I just don't wanna live that way.

The finality of why I'm single is because I have to work very goddamned hard because I was born below the poverty line to a welfare family of physically handicapped drug addicts who *still* can't financially balance themselves out. And so even if I do pull everything off, my parents and younger sister are all going to be calling me up at one point or another asking me for money like they already do. Which would be fine if I worked a 60K a year job or something with some degree being an extrovert, but I don't and I'm not like that. I actually intentionally work lower level types of jobs because if they *know* I'm making a substantial amount, they *will* come and ask me for money all of the time. Just like they did when I was 22 and 23.

So given my situation:
I honestly feel that I'm much, MUCH further ahead to give up and move forward, and doing so actually improves my friendships and social, platonic relationships with women because of it. Girls don't feel threatened that I'm going to try to date them, even if I harbor an interest that they don't really pick up on, because I'm not outwardly throwing myself about in desperation about it.

The irony of it though is that the only time I feel even remotely human is when I'm in a relationship.
Which means: I've actually become comfortable with being uncomfortable.
Which often gets mistaken for me being "confident." To which my rebuttable is: Yeah, I'm confident---I'm confident we're all gonna ******* die a horrible death one day and there's nothing anybody, anywhere can or will be willing to do about it because our society doesn't do what it should, it does what it wants.

The other reason why I'm single is I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in attempting to keep up with modern pop culture phenomena just to be able to have something to talk to people about under a social setting. While I am aware that this is a large part of the reason why I have social anxiety, it's also not worth it to me in order to sacrifice necessity just to be able to do.

There's this really ironic and funny picture somebody made (I love humor, just in small doses, because it's kind of therapeutic to me in a way) and I'm sort of at that point  : My argument being that at least I know why I'm single LOL

 

[Quietude]

The majority of my friends are in relationships, many have families and none of them are rich or particularly good looking. Just look around you how many people ARE actually in relationships, how many people have families... It is so obvious that there are people of all various physical attractiveness levels who are in relationships.

If you are a super skinny dude who looks like you could be snapped with a flick, then there is something you need to work on. If you are a very large woman, too much woman for guys to handle, and you can't find a guy because of it, well then there is something to work on too... Basically everyone has to improve on themselves, male or female alike. Psychologically speaking, with such a negative view of relationships, or framing the opposite sex and judging them, how do you also expect to find a relationship. People who do this are literally hurting their own chances by sitting in an area of negative emotions and thoughts... It's really not going to help.

Perhaps it actually is more difficult for men, perhaps those statistics are right, but who cares... Beat the statistics! Be one of the ones that made it...
You just may not be in the right place right now, but thinking forward positively and you will be.




Anyway, these people will likely grow out of it too. The people who label themselves as incel and the like are usually young guys who have not yet matured, people who have not yet realized the main culprit is their own mind, their own psychology, their own point of view, and the negative endless non-productive spiral circle jerk they engage in. Working on your communication skills, not treating the opposite sex like aliens and instead like people, working on both physical AND psychological traits... That is the real point, and that is how you find someone who wants to be with you.

This by the way is coming from a guy who is 32 and has never been in a relationship... I know that my reason is because I had many problems in life regarding anxiety and depression. If you are to be rational about it, you just have to improve yourself, who cares what society or your peers think about your self improvement and blaming women or men saying they are not treating you fairly will NEVER amount to anything productive, ever. Dwelling on these is literally pointless and will get you nowhere closer to your goal/s.

I truly believe that anyone who keeps working on them self will find someone eventually, everyone has that potential in life.

 

[ardour]

The majority of my friends are in relationships, many have families and none of them are rich or particularly good looking. Just look around you how many people ARE actually in relationships, how many people have families... It is so obvious that there are people of all various physical attractiveness levels who are in relationships.

If you are a super skinny dude who looks like you could be snapped with a flick, then there is something you need to work on. If you are a very large woman, too much woman for guys to handle, and you can't find a guy because of it, well then there is something to work on too... Basically everyone has to improve on themselves, male or female alike. Psychologically speaking, with such a negative view of relationships, or framing the opposite sex and judging them, how do you also expect to find a relationship. People who do this are literally hurting their own chances by sitting in an area of negative emotions and thoughts... It's really not going to help.

Perhaps it actually is more difficult for men, perhaps those statistics are right, but who cares... Beat the statistics! Be one of the ones that made it...
You just may not be in the right place right now, but thinking forward positively and you will be.




Anyway, these people will likely grow out of it too. The people who label themselves as incel and the like are usually young guys who have not yet matured, people who have not yet realized the main culprit is their own mind, their own psychology, their own point of view, and the negative endless non-productive spiral circle jerk they engage in. Working on your communication skills, not treating the opposite sex like aliens and instead like people, working on both physical AND psychological traits... That is the real point, and that is how you find someone who wants to be with you.

This by the way is coming from a guy who is 32 and has never been in a relationship... I know that my reason is because I had many problems in life regarding anxiety and depression. If you are to be rational about it, you just have to improve yourself, who cares what society or your peers think about your self improvement and blaming women or men saying they are not treating you fairly will NEVER amount to anything productive, ever. Dwelling on these is literally pointless and will get you nowhere closer to your goal/s.

I truly believe that anyone who keeps working on them self will find someone eventually, everyone has that potential in life.

I agree in as much as the  extreme element of incel rhetoric is mainly to do with the average age in those communities. Also that it's re-enforceing patterns of thinking that ultimately won't help them. Yet we see depressed and anxious women in relationships all the time, depressed men not nearly as often, this is reality, and frankly it's idiotic to go to the opposite extreme and argue that gender roles in dating/romantic relationships don't exist just to counter the incel/MRA viewpoint.

The fact that complaining and being negative is often counterproductive doesn't invalidate the complaints. Being a worthwhile person and treating the opposite sex like they're part of the same species generally ISN'T enough (if only). You have to play a role and it's all too bad if you can't.

 

[DanL53]

Marriage is not certain to be a fix, conversely, being single is not certain to be the cause.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201306/together-still-lonely

What can be taken from persons who are educated and get paid to fix mental issues, is this:

"We typically don’t conceive of loneliness as a condition that requires urgent intervention, but perhaps we should. In addition to the emotional anguish loneliness creates, it also has devastating effects on our mental and physical health. Loneliness depresses our immune system functioning, increasers inflammatory responses that put us at greater risk for cardiovascular disease, and can literally shorten our longevity. On the mental health front, loneliness puts us at risk for depression and anxiety and causes us to distort our perceptions such that we view ourselves, our lives, and our relationships more negatively—which in turn, influences our behavior in damaging ways.", from attached link.

The good news is the article also includes suggestions on how to treat the issue of loneliness.  It does not include social isolation.  If you find yourself more in need of just checking out and staying home....take it from me, get professional mental health help.  I will be 59 in about a month....I finally accepted that I had an issue (agoraphobia) just a few years ago...my life is better now than ever.  Just imagine, thinking to myself, if I had confronted the person in the mirror a few decades past...

...and not just for me, but to prevent some of the emotional wreckage I left behind in others as well.

 

[Quietude]

I agree in as much as the  extreme element of incel rhetoric  is  mainly to do with the average age in those communities. Also that it's re-enforceing patterns of thinking that ultimately won't help them.  Yet we see depressed and anxious women in relationships all the time, depressed men not nearly as often, this is  reality, and frankly it's idiotic to go to the opposite extreme and argue that gender roles in dating/romantic relationships don't exist just to counter the incel/MRA viewpoint.

The fact that complaining and being negative is often counterproductive doesn't invalidate the complaints. Being a worthwhile person and treating the opposite sex like they're part of the same species generally ISN'T enough (if only). You have to play a role and it's all too bad if you can't.

Perhaps there really is truth in that it is harder for men and the statistics in favor of it being harder for men are factual, so perhaps the argument isn't entirely incorrect if they say it is not balanced. This is something I did actually allude to. Perhaps women are far more cautious about taking a partner... I tend to think that there is actually at least a little bit of a distortion in perception of much younger women due to having good looking men in media, everywhere, being shoved in front of them from tv to fashion ads, music artist being all glammed up etc etc. Those men in reality are like 0.1% of the population though if that, so the perception is unrealistic. I don't have any evidence at hand to back up that opinion, but I believe there is some truth to it.

Really my point here is anyway though that you can't moan at an entire sex and claim yourself victim. It is actually really immature and pointless. Any mature person would, despite some odds against them, actually go and do something to beat those odds. Moaning in an echo chamber just isn't the way to solve it at all. There has actually always been an imbalance of the sexes.

Just remember we are talking about involuntary celibacy here... which is a very silly term imo and meant just to play victim and create labels and point the finger like a little child, it is not something which actually achieves anything at all and it is not profound in any way. You could count every single person on earth who is single as involuntarily celibate because biologically basically everyone desires sex and a partner.

 

[ITellYouHhwut]

I’m not an “incel sympathizer”, and I think think that these ******* little millennial words are stupid. But I will have to partly agree with OP. I will also say that as predictable as his post might seem, so do the responses most of you gave. And most of you couldn’t even put forth any arguments, and instead just bashed the OP for saying predictable incel stuff like “stacey and chad”. 

Set aside the potential toxic mindset these “incel” types might have, and just recognize that it is a biological fact that women are hypergamous, and mate up and across socioeconomic hierarchies. Women DO choose men based certain traits that are indicators of good genes, and show his ability to provide shelter and resources for her and her potential offspring. Certain men ARE doomed when it comes to women, and it’s just pure biology as to why this is the case. There’s literally nothing that can be done about it, which is why I don’t see the need in whining about not getting women, nor do I disagree with the OP. That is unfortunately how women are, but they can’t help it. That’s just how nature selects for the best genes. You can’t wholly blame them. This is also why the whole concept of “self-help” and “self-improvement” is a complete farce and total BS. If don’t naturally attract women, there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. Your mating success, or lack thereof, was determined by biology long before you were even born. There’s NOTHING you can do. Incels know this and have to live with this reality every day. It’s painful. I know from experience.

It’s actually a combination of a lot of problems that have led to this incel epidemic with men, and the OP has touched on a lot of reasonable explanations that have some truth to them. But by far the biggest factor that he did not mention was the fact that we as human race have effectively subverted natural selection. The problem with the modern world is that not enough people die anymore. Back in the good old days when natural selection was uninhibited, there were no depressed, worthless, incels laying around crying about how they couldn’t get women, because natural selection picked off the weak back then, leaving only the strong and capable who were able to secure mates. That’s the real issue with all of these epidemics of issues people are having. Modern society shelters people from getting picked off by natural selection. They are kept alive now, when otherwise they would have gotten what they had coming to them by nature. If we allowed more dying to occur, we could cure most of these problems that ail us. It would get rid of the inferior specimens who can’t secure mates because their genes are crappy.

I’m not trying to insult the OP. I’m one of these types myself. I’m 28 and still a virgin. I’ve also never had a girlfriend and never been on a date before. It has crossed my mind that I might need to consider suicide, just because it seems as though my existence is contrived, and that without the contrived aid of modernity, I technically should be dead. But I’m perfectly okay with that concept and idea. It doesn’t bother me, because I know it’s just the natural order, and is best for the greater good. People kind of have that whole concept backwards. They say “no, don’t kill yourself. The world needs you!” They don’t seem to grasp the fact that for some of us, the best thing we can do for the greater good is die, remove ourselves from any chance of entering the gene pool, and helping to contribute to the promulgation of the better genes.

So ultimately, the OP is exactly right. Most young women today have had their hypergamy maximized, and there are so many stuck up ******* out there these days that think their farts don’t stink. They know they get validation from beta orbiters both on the internet and in real life. They know they can reap the rewards and gifts from those beta orbiters, and never have to give those “nice guys” anything in return. They will go out and bang the alpha males, and leave their beta orbiters high and dry every time, despite all the attention, admiration, and love the beta gives her constantly. And they know these “nice guys” will keep coming back.. They prey on these betas heavily, and you can tell that there is a side to them that gets a kick out of seeing these poor “nice guys” suffer and have their hearts broken. Women don’t mind who they hurt, or even if it drives them to suicide. Again, I fully believe they get a kick out of the pain and destruction of these beta males they prey on.

This is why this idea that women are the loving and caring ones is total ********, and completely backwards. It is impossible for a woman to love a man. IMPOSSIBLE. It’s actually men who are the loving ones, and the women who are the users.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I truly believe that anyone who keeps working on them self will find someone eventually, everyone has that potential in life.

That's a nice sentiment, but I don't see why that has to be the case.

It seems like some guys barely make any effort in life beyond showing up, and find someone easily. Meanwhile other guys do all sorts of things, good job, hobbies, travel, knowledge, and so on, but still never seem to be good enough.

I feel like it's at least as likely that a person "works on themselves" their whole life, but gets nowhere either due to never being "cool" enough, or bad luck. You just stay lost, going in random directions that never lead anywhere. You could try all sorts of things, weightlifting, trying to get the high-paying job, learning a sport, learning an instrument, learning a martial art, learning to gamble, shooting guns, buying a fast car or motorcycle, sailing around the world, learning to fly a plane, ski, snowboard, surf, traveling to all 7 continents, drinking and dancing every weekend, reading, learning a lot about various subjects, joining various subcultures, and it still just might not matter. You don't know if you're getting closer, or just going off in some random direction that doesn't lead to anything and all the stuff you're doing isn't making any difference. When is it ever going to be enough? How much stuff that you may not even really feel any need to do, do you have to do before you're enough?

Personally the most important thing seems to be being "cool", having either a tough and/or cocky attitude like you break the rules, are better than everyone else, and win at everything all the time. Or the kind of guy that thinks fast and takes "witty" potshots at anyone and anything. Or a suave smooth-talker that always says the right things as if everything they say comes from a movie. Or just have really unconventional, visionary thoughts. It seems that if you're just a regular person that just talks normally, has a few interests, and doesn't have any kind of "attitude" or "edge", people think you're boring, not thrilling enough. The only problem is, that's not me at all. I think a lot of guys who struggle with dating are the same way. We couldn't be edgy because we weren't strong enough to back it up, not fast or smooth enough of mind, not born into the culture, not naturals at anything (and therefore can't have the attitude of someone who always wins), or just don't feel the need to be like that.

I wish I could share your certainty, but I just can't bring myself to believe it.

---

And most of you couldn’t even put forth any arguments, and instead just bashed the OP for saying predictable incel stuff like “stacey and chad”. 

Yeah.  This topic makes people want to miss the forest for the trees.

This is also why the whole concept of “self-help” and “self-improvement” is a complete farce and total BS. If don’t naturally attract women, there’s not a damn thing you can do about it. Your mating success, or lack thereof, was determined by biology long before you were even born. There’s NOTHING you can do. Incels know this and have to live with this reality every day. It’s painful. I know from experience.

See, I'm not sure if I totally agree with you here.  I feel like there might be SOMETHING you can do, cause if you have no success at all, you're doing so badly that it seems it's just got to be possible to do at least a little better than that somehow.  Kind of like jobs, sure, maybe we won't all be millionaires, but a normal person should have enough mental capacity to at least be able to learn how to do something that earns a middle class income.  At least in theory.  

I think the hard part with this is, if you don't naturally attract women, you have no frame of reference for what to think, say, do, or be.  It's just "not what you've been thinking, saying, doing, or being".  That only leaves everything else, so it doesn't help much. That's the problem with most "self-improvement" advice, is that they just tell you to improve.  It's like, OK, great, it's better than nothing, but how, or in what way?  You might even say, well, I've tried a few things but nothing's happened.  And no one really has anything to say to that.

I know a lot of people who got into relationships, and none of them are macho men or superstars.  Sometimes I think they must be doing something, but I've thought about it and I don't know what.  It seems they just got lucky.

It’s actually a combination of a lot of problems that have led to this incel epidemic with men, and the OP has touched on a lot of reasonable explanations that have some truth to them. But by far the biggest factor that he did not mention was the fact that we as human race have effectively subverted natural selection. The problem with the modern world is that not enough people die anymore. Back in the good old days when natural selection was uninhibited, there were no depressed, worthless, incels laying around crying about how they couldn’t get women, because natural selection picked off the weak back then, leaving only the strong and capable who were able to secure mates. That’s the real issue with all of these epidemics of issues people are having. Modern society shelters people from getting picked off by natural selection. They are kept alive now, when otherwise they would have gotten what they had coming to them by nature. If we allowed more dying to occur, we could cure most of these problems that ail us. It would get rid of the inferior specimens who can’t secure mates because their genes are crappy.

My heart wants to disagree, to think we're better than this.  But my head has been fearing you're right for some time. For most of my life, I've been afraid that things have gone for me the way they've gone because I have crappy, weak, untalented DNA.

I don't think it's quite as extreme, but I do think that the softening of the world has had this unintended, unforeseen side effect.  Technology got ahead of evolution, and culture sent mixed signals.  I think there were less men who struggled with attraction before because people had to be harder before, because life was harder, there were less luxuries, there was less of a concept of youth culture, there was less of an idea of play or fun. It wasn't necessarily that they were killed off, so much as life required them to become "manly" men, it didn't give them the option, even if they weren't really suited for it.  People weren't taught to be nice, because the world wasn't nice. It was always about grabbing as much as you could to make it through the day, and getting ready for the next winter or the next war. Life was pretty much about survival, work, war, or drinking for relief, or for some people, crime.  The more comfortable we make life, we increase safety and comfort and overall quality of life, which I think is a good thing, having the side effect of requiring a guy to be less and less masculine to survive - but at the same time he still has to be just as masculine as ever to be attractive.  It got to a point where you don't need it, there are alternatives, it's more trouble or risk than it's worth, or even illegal.  It's hard to be masculine in middle class suburbia, because that lifestyle and character doesn't make sense there, like a shark out of water.  It has no "hard man" culture, no real culture of masculinity.  So then you get guys who can't really be "hard men", because they didn't grow up as that.  To them it's foreign.

Then people say "well not every woman wants the hard man" which is true, but you have to admit it's rarer. A "hard" macho man seems to be able to make a woman's heart race, in a way that an average, friendly but "swagless" middle-class suburban guy, especially a nerdy guy, does not.  If you're not either really talented and/or a "hard man" and/or one of those "witty banter" guys, then you have a lot less control over who you get, if anyone at all.  All you can really do is clean up, make a middle-class income, try to learn some interesting things to say, and hope/wish/pray some woman chooses you.

One thing that gives me hope though, is that anyone alive today is a descendant of people who survived the bad old days.  So, that means you have at least some winner DNA flowing through your veins.  Maybe we just haven't found a way to unearth and apply it.

I don't know, all I can say is I hope we all find a way to make it, and even if I do I'll always feel for those who haven't yet.

 

[Quietude]

I truly believe that anyone who keeps working on them self will find someone eventually, everyone has that potential in life.

That's a nice sentiment, but I don't see why that has to be the case.  

It seems like some guys barely make any effort in life beyond showing up, and find someone easily.  Meanwhile other guys do all sorts of things, good job, hobbies, travel, knowledge, and so on, but still never seem to be good enough.

I feel like it's at least as likely that a person "works on themselves" their whole life, but gets nowhere either due to never being "cool" enough, or bad luck.  You just stay lost, going in random directions that never lead anywhere.  You could try all sorts of things, weightlifting, trying to get the high-paying job, learning a sport, learning an instrument, learning a martial art, learning to gamble, shooting guns, buying a fast car or motorcycle, sailing around the world, learning to fly a plane, ski, snowboard, surf, traveling to all 7 continents, drinking and dancing every weekend, reading, learning a lot about various subjects, joining various subcultures, and it still just might not matter.  You don't know if you're getting closer, or just going off in some random direction that doesn't lead to anything and all the stuff you're doing isn't making any difference.  When is it ever going to be enough?  How much stuff that you may not even really feel any need to do, do you have to do before you're enough?

Personally the most important thing seems to be being "cool", having either a tough and/or cocky attitude like you break the rules, are better than everyone else, and win at everything all the time.  Or the kind of guy that thinks fast and takes "witty" potshots at anyone and anything.  Or a suave smooth-talker that always says the right things as if everything they say comes from a movie.  Or just have really unconventional, visionary thoughts.  It seems that if you're just a regular person that just talks normally, has a few interests, and doesn't have any kind of "attitude" or "edge", people think you're boring, not thrilling enough.  The only problem is, that's not me at all.  I think a lot of guys who struggle with dating are the same way.  We couldn't be edgy because we weren't strong enough to back it up, not fast or smooth enough of mind, not born into the culture, not naturals at anything (and therefore can't have the attitude of someone who always wins), or just don't feel the need to be like that.

I wish I could share your certainty, but I just can't bring myself to believe it.

The thing is Ska, you are doing an awful lot of categorization. If you read back over what you are saying, things like the swave guy, the guy who is cool etc etc and this idea of a guy who works on himself yet still can't find someone. You missed one major point to improvement, matters related to the psychological and body inflections, mannerisms and such.

There are a lot of people out there who are very "Tunnel visioned" lets say when it comes to their own mannerisms, how they communicate and other things. The types who never change to improve themselves socially, how they communicate, their mannerisms, you know, how they come across to people, the soft skills. That can be very hard to think about for some people because it can require a change of perspective.

The things that are not material or physical...

These non-materialistic things are often incredibly neglected, but, are core reasons, sometimes hidden reason to some, as to why a person can't find someone. Also just to clarify I'm not talking about pick-up artistry or anything of the like. I'm talking about trying to come across as a kinder person, actually trying to be compassionate, confident, trying to understand others, take an interest in others, treat others like human beings who have their own problems and interests and everything else it means to be human. Trying to work out if there are mannerisms that may put people off like too much or too little eye contact.

Most people when someone says improve themselves, instantly go to yeah I need bigger muscles, some sexy clothes and an awesome haircut, more money... While these things may help of course. I think actually being able to conduct yourself as someone who is interested in other human beings, likes to be engaged with the world, conducts yourself in a confident manner, likes conversation and is generally a likeable person who respects others... that will truly help a person find someone.

 

[ardour]

I truly believe that anyone who keeps working on them self will find someone eventually, everyone has that potential in life.

That's a nice sentiment, but I don't see why that has to be the case.  

It seems like some guys barely make any effort in life beyond showing up, and find someone easily.  Meanwhile other guys do all sorts of things, good job, hobbies, travel, knowledge, and so on, but still never seem to be good enough.

I feel like it's at least as likely that a person "works on themselves" their whole life, but gets nowhere either due to never being "cool" enough, or bad luck.  You just stay lost, going in random directions that never lead anywhere.  You could try all sorts of things, weightlifting, trying to get the high-paying job, learning a sport, learning an instrument, learning a martial art, learning to gamble, shooting guns, buying a fast car or motorcycle, sailing around the world, learning to fly a plane, ski, snowboard, surf, traveling to all 7 continents, drinking and dancing every weekend, reading, learning a lot about various subjects, joining various subcultures, and it still just might not matter.  You don't know if you're getting closer, or just going off in some random direction that doesn't lead to anything and all the stuff you're doing isn't making any difference.  When is it ever going to be enough?  How much stuff that you may not even really feel any need to do, do you have to do before you're enough?

Personally the most important thing seems to be being "cool", having either a tough and/or cocky attitude like you break the rules, are better than everyone else, and win at everything all the time.  Or the kind of guy that thinks fast and takes "witty" potshots at anyone and anything.  Or a suave smooth-talker that always says the right things as if everything they say comes from a movie.  Or just have really unconventional, visionary thoughts.  It seems that if you're just a regular person that just talks normally, has a few interests, and doesn't have any kind of "attitude" or "edge", people think you're boring, not thrilling enough.  The only problem is, that's not me at all.  I think a lot of guys who struggle with dating are the same way.  We couldn't be edgy because we weren't strong enough to back it up, not fast or smooth enough of mind, not born into the culture, not naturals at anything (and therefore can't have the attitude of someone who always wins), or just don't feel the need to be like that.

I wish I could share your certainty, but I just can't bring myself to believe it.

The thing is Ska, you are doing an awful lot of categorization. If you read back over what you are saying, things like the swave guy, the guy who is cool etc etc and this idea of a guy who works on himself yet still can't find someone. You missed one major point to improvement, matters related to the psychological and body inflections, mannerisms and such.

There are a lot of people out there who are very "Tunnel visioned" lets say when it comes to their own mannerisms, how they communicate and other things. The types who never change to improve themselves socially, how they communicate, their mannerisms, you know, how they come across to people, the soft skills. That can be very hard to think about for some people because it can require a change of perspective.

The things that are not material or physical...

These non-materialistic things are often incredibly neglected, but, are core reasons, sometimes hidden reason to some, as to why a person can't find someone. Also just to clarify I'm not talking about pick-up artistry or anything of the like. I'm talking about trying to come across as a kinder person, actually trying to be compassionate, confident, trying to understand others, take an interest in others, treat others like human beings who have their own problems and interests and everything else it means to be human. Trying to work out if there are mannerisms that may put people off like too much or too little eye contact.

Most people when someone says improve themselves, instantly go to yeah I need bigger muscles, some sexy clothes and an awesome haircut, more money... While these things may help of course. I think actually being able to conduct yourself as someone who is interested in other human beings, likes to be engaged with the world, conducts yourself in a confident manner, likes conversation and is generally a likeable person who respects others... that will truly help a person find someone.

You think it hasn't occurred that we might not actually be that nice, or that there might be serious problems in the way we come across? There's been times when that was practically all I thought about.

I've tried to talk to women just like I would other men, but while I've got on on with older female coworkers and partnered up friends well enough, any potentially single woman in my age range has always made themselves unknowable. The only way to overcome that would have been to push my presence on someone who most likely didn't want it. And yeah, I did do that a few times when I was younger, but I've learnt that lesson.

I've tried to get control of my anxiety but it's a losing game because the slightest hint of it puts you back at square one.

While I waded in neurosis I'd see women partner up with men who should have rung every alarm bell, men who were anything but empathetic, and it's hard for that not to colour your cynicism. You mention confidence a couple of times, again that points to stereotypical masculinity, and these guys tick every one of those boxes.

What's so just about the fact that some men are dismissed and relegated to a life alone over over an awkward smile, while borderline abusers receive love, companionship and a family by 35? I know the answer so don't bother. There are practical difficulties to getting to know opposite sex without good social skills and experience. We get that. This is just to try and give you an idea of what's likely driving the OP's frustration, as opposed to what you seem to think he's about.

 

[humourless]

oh the dating game. i dont miss that. look at all the stress it causes. all the self doubt. women are just better at hiding their insecurities. if i were in your situation i think i would just focus on " how can i be happy without looking for a mate?" get into hobbies you really enjoy not to impress others. and when you find a half decent gal by chance, get off the treadmill.

 

[Quietude]

You think it hasn't occurred that we might not actually be that nice, or that there might be serious problems in the way we come across? There's been times when that was practically all I thought about.

I've tried talk to women just like I would other men but while I've got on well with older female coworkers and partnered up friends, any woman in my age range who was potentially has single has always made themselves unknowable. The only way to overcome that would have been to push my presence on someone who most likely didn't want it. And yeah, I did do that a few times when I was younger, but I've learnt that lesson.

I've tried to get control of my anxiety. It's a losing game because the slightest hint of it puts you back at square one, which is inevitable if it's already  a problem and men generally don't get second chances.

While I waded in all this neurosis I'd see women partner up with men who should have rung every alarm bell, men who were anything but empathetic,  and it's hard for that not to colour your cynicism.

You mention confidence a couple of times, again that  points to stereotypical masculinity whether you want to recognize it or not.

All of that is a problem with attitude, again, it is all psychological. You are saying, look I tried this and that and this and that. Well it didn't work did it so something is still off, there is still improvement to be made. This is something that can take a lifetime and every living person is part of it, some people just have a harder time than others.

Like you say "You think it hasn't occurred that we might not actually be that nice, or that there might be serious problems in the way we come across." Well yeah that is exactly my point! You have some things to work on and some perspective changes.

Most of the things you said are things that you can improve on in some way or other. Some people are just totally stuck psychologically, they think they will be the same person until they die, oh how so so wrong you are... unless you literally keep yourself willingly in that place.

A lot of the improvement includes looking from the outside in, instead of inside out. Something which a lot of people with anxiety and depression really struggle with. Who cares if these women got with men who were ********. There is hardly any point in creating discourse and moaning about that. You realize there are so so many good guys who have partners too? The world is a very diverse place. Not everyone by any means are all materialistic and go to clubs to find Johnny Depp for a casual fling every weekend. Nearly all my friends and acquaintances are nice people who have families, none of them look like Johnny Depp, or have his money, they obviously found someone that they love however.

Yeah confidence is often considered masculine, so what? Really it applies to anyone. Even if you do want to just consider it masculine anyway, perhaps it is indeed a requirement for a man to find a partner. Very often this is the case but not always. Not being confident is not exactly an attractive quality after all is it!

 

[ITellYouHhwut]

My biggest advice on trying to learn how to get a girlfriend is to never ask the people who are experienced at dating and get partners easily. They are the last ones to have a ******* clue what they’re talking about. They’ve never had to think about it. It just comes to them. That’s why they have a deer in headlights look when you ask them for advice and never have anything good to say. 

Secondly, everyone gets this completely wrong, and I think it would help people to know and understand this. If you’re a man who can’t attract women, you will NEVER attract women no matter what you do. If you don’t attract them, that means you have bad genetics. Women are attracted to genetics that indicate strength and survivability. In pre-modernity, you would likely be dead with your genetics. Whether nature killed you or you failed to achieve mating success, either way nature would weed your genetics out of the gene pool.

I personally feel it’s my obligation to kill myself. It is better for the greater good because it means I’m doing the work that nature would/should have done if we didn’t live in this modern world that keeps the inferior alive when they should be dead. People will say, “none of us would be here if people didn didn’t fight and try to beat the odds.” Yes, but again, I can deduce from my lack of success with women that my genes are not survivor’s genes. I would be dead if we lived back in the old days. That is the unfairness of today. Nature is inhibited from doing its work, so we have to proactively do it for it. In today’s society we think “every life is prescious” and “everyone deserves a chance”. Such clear ******** its unbelievable.

 

[ardour]

"Like you say "You think it hasn't occurred that we might not actually be that nice, or that there might be serious problems in the way we come across." Well yeah that is exactly my point! You have some things to work on and some perspective changes."

I guess I won't bother again. I tried to give you a hint of what it's like and you just twist things around to make yourself seem right in the most condescending way possible.

No, confidence is not a moral quality and women with every insecurity imaginable still end up with partners. The double standard might be reality but I don't have to like this or endorse it to be considered mature.

 

[Quietude]

"Like you say "You think it hasn't occurred that we might not actually be that nice, or that there might be serious problems in the way we come across." Well yeah that is exactly my point! You have some things to work on and some perspective changes."

I guess I won't bother again. I tried to give you a hint of what it's like and you just twist things around to make yourself seem right in the most condescending way possible.

No, confidence is not a moral quality and women with every insecurity imaginable still end up with partners. The double standard might be reality but I don't  have to like this or endorse it to be considered mature.

What double standard? This standard you have created from in your mind, or at least blown totally out of proportion. You look at the most extreme examples in society and are applying it to yourself and others.

I didn't twist it at all and it wasn't condescending. It was a truth based on the account you gave. You just had your defense mechanism kick in.

"I tried to give a hint at what its like". What's with the assumption. You have no idea the hard times I have been through and have never had a woman even give me the slightest hint. I know the reason for that is not due to an entire gender's perspective though. There is no such thing as that. I am just aware that it is because I have a lot of things to work on so that I can play to my strengths and improve on my weaknesses.

It's all so simple to blame again, saying things are unfair or getting defensive, maybe there is truth to it, but there is no point in acting defensive or blaming others or necessarily even creating discourse over it. Also nothing is set in stone, there are so so many people out there that have dramatically changed during their lives in many ways, you would never recognize them from past to present.

 

[TheRealCallie]

No, confidence is not a moral quality and women with every insecurity imaginable still end up with partners. The double standard might be reality but I don't  have to like this or endorse it to be considered mature.

So are you saying that every single woman, regardless of what her issues and what she looks like and her attitude and her outlooks and her illnesses and whatever else is able to get a partner?  There is not one woman in the world that is in the same boat that you are? 

Are you serious?  You don't think there are women HERE who have never had a partner?  You don't think there's some girl out there somewhere crying and hating men because she can't get one?  If you honestly believe that, get a clue. 

Ardour, I have often though over the years we've been here that a lot of your problem is your negativity.  You go into things thinking you are going to fail and a of people here do that.  Ska does that, too, whether he realizes it or not.  You both need to start realizing that maybe, just maybe you might be worth more.  You can "say" that you are, but I don't really think you believe it.  Yeah, I could be wrong, but honestly, with your perspectives the way they are, I don't think you could honestly tell me if I am.

 

[ardour]

No, confidence is not a moral quality and women with every insecurity imaginable still end up with partners. The double standard might be reality but I don't  have to like this or endorse it to be considered mature.

So are you saying that every single woman, regardless of what her issues and what she looks like and her attitude and her outlooks and her illnesses and whatever else is able to get a partner?  There is not one woman in the world that is in the same boat that you are? 

Are you serious? You don't think there are women HERE who have never had a partner? You don't think there's some girl out there somewhere crying and hating men because she can't get one? If you honestly believe that, get a clue.

Clearly I meant fewer rather than "none". Women with mental illnesses and disabilities are a lot more likely to have partners, there's data on that. It's what you'd expect. One person here might fit the description but she's flat out said she's too insecure to even send a message.

 

[Naizo]

I think you see those guys that should set off alarms and regular dudes alike have an easier time because they just arent thinking about it. Overthinking can lead to massive failure in almost every walk of life, especially relationships. The more you're worried about it, the bigger of an issue it becomes for you. They're not worried about it, so even if they go the same amount of time without being with someone, they just don't make it an issue so you don't hear about it from them. So it seems like they have no problem, because they don't make it a problem for themselves. It's kind've the same way where on facebook, you're only seeing what someone wants to post, typically the best parts of their life.

While I do think women set the president for dating however. Societally, men pursue and women accept or decline. Not every single case, but that does seem to be the basic flow most people live in. This whole thing where men "have a harder time getting someone than women" is a huge matter of skewed perspective. Are you asking out women you have absolutely no sexual interest in? Not likely. So why do men get mad when women who have no sexual interest in them decline their advances? Because it feels like you're failing more than they are even though you're not.

Men may get declined time after time, but there are a lot of women the proposal to enter a relationship never even comes their way.
It may feel worse for men because theyre in the mindset of it all lies on them and what they do whether or not they succeed but you seriously have to get to an understanding that just because you want something, no matter how desperately doesnt mean it will happen, no matter how hard you try. So chill, before the stress kills you. Its not all on you, or her, or him. Relationships just happen. Its not something you can recreate in a lab environment.

And yeah thats not great advice, because there isnt great advice. There is no miracule get six pack abs and a 12 foot dick / hourglass figure cure all for this issue. 

It eats away at us all.

 

[humourless]

I agree with Naizo. Christianity is the best option.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Here, try this guide on women. Looks legit. Lol

https://www.distractify.com/p/women...tm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=23843326102140548

 

[AmyTheTemperamental]

Here, try this guide on women.  Looks legit. Lol

https://www.distractify.com/p/women...tm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=23843326102140548

He should have gone with toe nails. That's where the witchiness really comes out.