Questions for the Women

[TheRealCallie]

I'd like to point out that there are probably more men who ask "ugly" girls out as a joke just to hurt them than women doing that to men.
(No, it doesn't just happen in the movies, it's real life too)

Some people here (and offline or other areas online) seem to think that they know exactly what the opposite gender or even others of the same gender go through because of their own personal bias or experience or things they read online. There are flaws in each one of those, especially reading things online because you only have one side of the story. You don't know how much the person talking is leaving out or even if (s)he's telling the truth at all. Men don't have it worse and the sooner some start to look at the other perspective, maybe they'll have more luck in relating to the opposite sex.

 

[MentatsGhoul]

I'd like to point out that there are probably more men who ask "ugly" girls out as a joke just to hurt them than women doing that to men.
(No, it doesn't just happen in the movies, it's real life too)

Some people here (and offline or other areas online) seem to think that they know exactly what the opposite gender or even others of the same gender go through because of their own personal bias or experience or things they read online. There are flaws in each one of those, especially reading things online because you only have one side of the story. You don't know how much the person talking is leaving out or even if (s)he's telling the truth at all. Men don't have it worse and the sooner some start to look at the other perspective, maybe they'll have more luck in relating to the opposite sex.

No one (at least not me personally) is saying "men have it worse". But I just find it odd how talking about male issues in the dating world is somehow "offensive" or automatically belittling of women's issue. And yes, there are plenty of men who act the same way when women talk about their issues in the dating world, and that's not right either.

 

[MentatsGhoul]

I do think there is some truth to Bogey's words though. In my experience a woman simply has to look as good as she can. Men have been known to overlook bad attitudes or other problems provided a woman looks good enough. Other things help of course, but mostly it comes back to that. The same is not true of men. I've been told I'm a good-looking guy before several times, yet here I am dateless and sexless as can be.

There is something that really bothers me about that line of thought and this is about personal standards really. Would anybody in here purposely overlook bad attitudes/traits in a woman (or a man since we are in the women's thread) you'd like to date or just get to know better? I know you can't exactly tell at first glance whether a person has a shitty personality, but let's just assume you are in an environment for socializing where you have a chance to observe your surroundings a bit. Would you decide against your better judgment?

Cause what I'm getting from this is that we are just kinda superficial and if men decide to overlook bad behavior in women for the sake of appearance - and approach them only on that basis - it's just the way things go. Then the woman on the other end knows she only has to "look pretty" (but could act as horrible as she wants) to attract that caliber of men. Which might be good enough for her. And that's usually when I ask the question whether that's good enough for you guys out there.

On a last note, I gotta say I do not think men and women face the very same issues, but the issues they face have equal prevalence. I just cannot ignore social conventions and while there are women who break the pattern by approaching men first it's likely not to turn into a norm anytime soon. I've often wondered what would happen if we had a 50/50 distribution here though. Maybe men would become just as supposedly "picky" because they could reject woman in the very same manner for the very same reasons that are attributed to women. Or accept them just because they look pretty.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's a real tightrope act. You really have to watch out for what you reveal to a woman, as too much complaining and too much self-doubt makes you look weak which makes them go cold. And you do have to watch out with how friendly you are as well. You have to work some flirting in there. And if you simply don't know how to flirt, it will be tough to figure out what exactly to say.

You make it sound like a woman is some type of alien or a live bomb you have to tip-toe around...I just don't get why anyone would even want to be accepted by a person that instantly discards you because you showed that you are also just a god **** human being who is not perfectly confident 24/7. Hypothetically speaking, if somebody told me to get lost the second I acted I got a bit muddled in my approach, I'd gladly get rejected and tell myself good riddance.

I mean, if this is reality I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Because it would mean all the deep-level MGTOWs out there are right: Women are not people and they show no mercy.

The whole thing about finding the line between being friendly and being too pushy/creepy is not just a male issue. Women have the same problem when they approach men, it has NOTHING to do with dehumanising women or making them sound like aliens.

I wasn't talking about some friendzoning stuff or whatever. It's just simple. If you don't flirt enough, don't send enough signals, then the person won't even be able to tell you're flirting with them, hell, it might backfire and the person might think you're not interested and are just keeping things casual, but it's also very easy to say something that makes the other person uncomfortable by accident if you push the limits a bit too much. I'm not even talking extremes like physically touching someone, or saying something outright creepy like "nice tits giiirl". A lot of people close up at the first sign of any physical interest, certain people can't even take a simple compliment. And again, this isn't JUST a male issue, I even actually said in my earlier post that I couldn't tell if some women were trying to hit on me, because it was so subtle. It just tends to be more obvious in males, since males are still the ones expected to do most of the approaching and can come across as intimidating more easily than women.

 

[TheSkaFish]

Cause what I'm getting from this is that we are just kinda superficial and if men decide to overlook bad behavior in women for the sake of appearance - and approach them only on that basis - it's just the way things go. Then the woman on the other end knows she only has to "look pretty" (but could act as horrible as she wants) to attract that caliber of men. Which might be good enough for her. And that's usually when I ask the question whether that's good enough for you guys out there.

I do feel that all of us are or at least have the potential to be at least a little superficial. I believe that men are more willing to overlook a bad attitude in a sufficiently good-looking woman, than a woman would be willing to overlook a lack of confidence or social status in a man regardless of his appearance.

On a last note, I gotta say I do not think men and women face the very same issues, but the issues they face have equal prevalence. I just cannot ignore social conventions and while there are women who break the pattern by approaching men first it's likely not to turn into a norm anytime soon. I've often wondered what would happen if we had a 50/50 distribution here though. Maybe men would become just as supposedly "picky" because they could reject woman in the very same manner for the very same reasons that are attributed to women. Or accept them just because they look pretty.

I don't think men and women face the same issues either, and also agree that the issues they face hold equal weight. But, I still feel like because of the way humans are, women are typically the choosers. As far as approaching goes, I wasn't really calling for more women to approach because I don't think that social convention is going to change and there is no way to work towards it to change, so it is pointless to say that is the problem. The way humans work biologically, it doesn't seem that men can really be the choosers. All a man seems to be able to do is hope he has made himself sufficient to the woman he's interested in. All a guy can really do is be his best.

You make it sound like a woman is some type of alien or a live bomb you have to tip-toe around...I just don't get why anyone would even want to be accepted by a person that instantly discards you because you showed that you are also just a god **** human being who is not perfectly confident 24/7. Hypothetically speaking, if somebody told me to get lost the second I acted I got a bit muddled in my approach, I'd gladly get rejected and tell myself good riddance.

I mean, if this is reality I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Because it would mean all the deep-level MGTOWs out there are right: Women are not people and they show no mercy.

It's not that they are an alien or a live bomb. It's more like a job interview or an audition. It's about creating a favorable impression of yourself. You don't have to tip-toe, but I do believe that if you want to attract a certain woman, then you have to make sure you are acting like a man around her, otherwise you're going to be in trouble. You can be a little more "human" after you've landed the audition and gotten to know each other more, but not before.

It doesn't mean women aren't people - quite the opposite. It means women are people, just like men are people, and people are shallow and superficial. The world is kinda cold and hostile if you don't have capital in whatever the area may be (financial, social, etc).

 

[TheSkaFish]

Men don't have it worse and the sooner some start to look at the other perspective, maybe they'll have more luck in relating to the opposite sex.

I don't think men have it worse and was in no way trying to marginalize the problems women face. It's equal, and equally harsh - if you're a physically unattractive woman, you're going to have a hard time. If you're an insecure man with low social status, you're also going to have a hard time.

I was just saying that being an attractive man is more complex and subtle than being an attractive woman.

 

[VanillaCreme]

I was just saying that being an attractive man is more complex and subtle than being an attractive woman.

What? It is not. Goddamn, what a load of bologna... It's unreal anyone actually thinks this. That doesn't even make sense.

 

[TheSkaFish]

I was just saying that being an attractive man is more complex and subtle than being an attractive woman.

What? It is not. Goddamn, what a load of bologna... It's unreal anyone actually thinks this. That doesn't even make sense.

If it's so easy, I'm listening. Not just me either, but a lot of people here have problems with this and we'd like to know what to do. I'm not being sarcastic here either. I feel it's complex, but if it's simple, then what is it?

I mean, some of us here have never had a relationship or even casual sex in the time we've been of the appropriate age. For some of us it has been multiple decades. I really don't think we are simply incompatible with every person we've ever met, meanwhile other guys are compatible with just about anyone and face no such difficulty. I think it has to be that we're doing something wrong. And if it were so easy and obvious we'd have realized it on our own and fixed it by now, because it really isn't fun to live this way, feeling confused, feeling like maybe it's because you're some kind of runt and there's nothing you can do about it. No one would consciously choose this.

 

[TheRealCallie]

Men don't have it worse and the sooner some start to look at the other perspective, maybe they'll have more luck in relating to the opposite sex.

I don't think men have it worse and was in no way trying to marginalize the problems women face. It's equal, and equally harsh - if you're a physically unattractive woman, you're going to have a hard time. If you're an insecure man with low social status, you're also going to have a hard time.

I was just saying that being an attractive man is more complex and subtle than being an attractive woman.

And you've been an "attractive" woman to know this to be true?

You know your own experiences and a little of what other people you know have been through. You know nothing of what women (or even other men) go through or how complex and subtle it is for others.

 

[TheSkaFish]

And you've been an "attractive" woman to know this to be true?

You know your own experiences and a little of what other people you know have been through. You know nothing of what women (or even other men) go through or how complex and subtle it is for others.

I don't think I have to be. It is obviously easy for certain types of people, in fact, it's obviously easy for most people. It is obviously not easy for others. There are patterns either way, too many for it to be random.

 

[TheRealCallie]

It is obviously easy for certain types of people, in fact, it's obviously easy for most people. It is obviously not easy for others. There are patterns either way, too many for it to be random.

Now THAT statement is correct. There is no mention of male or female. Just people. Gender doesn't matter.

 

[Xpendable]

I don't have to live in Africa to know people there live different and have different obstacles in life. I don't have to be rich to know rich people live better. If we say we can't have an opinion on someone else's life because we aren't that person, then it becomes impossible to have a discussion on the subject. I think there's a desperate attempt for "equalize" and homogenize the genders to avoid any hint of a possible disbalance. Maybe one gender does have it worse than the other, why is that so infuriating to some? why we have to pretend everything is fine and dandy?

 

[VanillaCreme]

Maybe one gender does have it worse than the other, why is that so infuriating to some?

It's not infuriating. It's just not true. And most people who go that route - because you really don't have to - mainly say it to justify how they feel about it anyway.

 

[Serenia]

I don't have to live in Africa to know people there live different and have different obstacles in life. I don't have to be rich to know rich people live better. If we say we can't have an opinion on someone else's life because we aren't that person, then it becomes impossible to have a discussion on the subject. I think there's a desperate attempt for "equalize" and homogenize the genders to avoid any hint of a possible disbalance. Maybe one gender does have it worse than the other, why is that so infuriating to some? why we have to pretend everything is fine and dandy?

Is it not a coincidence that the men who share your views on difficulty obtaining relstionships all have the same problems getting into them, but men who take the chances and spend less time obsessing about the negatives are in relationships?

 

[Xpendable]

Is it not a coincidence that the men who share your views on difficulty obtaining relstionships all have the same problems getting into them, but men who take the chances and spend less time obsessing about the negatives are in relationships?

How do you know this is true?

 

[VanillaCreme]

Is it not a coincidence that the men who share your views on difficulty obtaining relstionships all have the same problems getting into them, but men who take the chances and spend less time obsessing about the negatives are in relationships?

How do you know this is true?

If you don't see that yourself, there's no amount of anything anyone says that could ever make you realize that. Because Serenia isn't the only one who's noticed that.

 

[Xpendable]

If you don't see that yourself, there's no amount of anything anyone says that could ever make you realize that. Because Serenia isn't the only one who's noticed that.

It almost sounds as if you knew another person experience without being them.

 

[AmytheTemperamental]

How many ladies can honestly say they would like to stay single?


*raises hand*

 

[Paraiyar]

I don't have to live in Africa to know people there live different and have different obstacles in life. I don't have to be rich to know rich people live better. If we say we can't have an opinion on someone else's life because we aren't that person, then it becomes impossible to have a discussion on the subject. I think there's a desperate attempt for "equalize" and homogenize the genders to avoid any hint of a possible disbalance. Maybe one gender does have it worse than the other, why is that so infuriating to some? why we have to pretend everything is fine and dandy?

Is it not a coincidence that the men who share your views on difficulty obtaining relstionships all have the same problems getting into them, but men who take the chances and spend less time obsessing about the negatives are in relationships?

I've taken some big chances and I'm not in a relationship.

 

[TheRealCallie]

How many ladies can honestly say they would like to stay single?


*raises hand*

 

[Oldyoung]

Scenario. If you had a partner, and he wanted/commanded you to dance for him. Would it be weird?